PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

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Le Baron
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby Le Baron » Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:11 pm

At the risk of adding fuel to this escalating dumpster fire of advice I just want to quote this:
PeterMollenburg wrote:Nowadays I feel I'm a good B2-level French language user and no longer feel I can self assess myself as a C-level French language user, as the reality is some of the language has atrophied as I don't generally push my skills. Still, when it's time to target a c-level French exam again, it should not be too difficult to pick up the books again, dust off some dusty vocabulary cobwebs...

You'll be familiar with my tiresome waywardness with regard to people gunning for the coveted 'C2', though from what I read in your log (which I do read; not religiously, but I'm not religious anyway) this sort of thing is more of a hindrance to you than any sort of help. Why would I say such a thing? Only because it collides with your general approach as outlined in a couple of the replies above, with regard to 'doing' and playing the game:
PeterMollenburg wrote:Is it more interesting to train for the game or to play the game?

I agree. Not that I would be a clever dick and say 'only play the game', because I believe in study as much as anyone. You seem to me like a confident user of French, with a lot of experience. Also someone who doesn't need to punish himself with the acquisition of something dictated by an exam with a name. For you the question probably shouldn't be: 'Pierre, are you C1/C2?' But rather: 'Alors Pierre, depuis combien de temps parles-tu français? Tu parles très bien!'.

I will posit Pieter Mollenburg and invent his identical twin brother Dirk Mollenburg. We all meet in the van Gogh museum and walk around speaking in Dutch about the paintings we're looking at. In a café the next day Pieter tells me (at length and in Dutch) about how van Gogh's style changed when he moved to Arles in the south of France; more light and colour. Le Baron finds this all very impressive, including the Dutch. Then Dirk intervenes to tell me about what possibly led to the unhappy painter's mental decline...also in very respectable Dutch, but Dirk also tells me he passed the C2 exam in Dutch, since he had to provide the certificate for a job. Pieter, looking into his empty coffee cup, laments ruefully (in Dutch) that he hasn't and that he actually failed it. And yet Le Baron is puzzled because Pieter is speaking perfectly good Dutch, no different than Dirk. At which point a waitress asks if we would like another drink and Pieter automatically responds with: 'Ja graag, ik neem nog een koffie, and 'mogen we een lunchmenu?'

Anyone I've ever met with whom I spoke a different language, has never asked me and I've never asked them if they 'passed C1/C2'. Or any other CEFR level. It only mattered that each party understood.
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frenchfish55
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby frenchfish55 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 4:45 pm

So we started to talk about kids. Looks like there are chances that your kids will speak more than one language
And her father even don't know languages...So you have advantages...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFrkkqjPodc
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby frenchfish55 » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:08 pm

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MorkTheFiddle
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:40 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:I never used the more in depth Living Language courses that others have mentioned over the years here and on HTLAL. I did however use another Living Language series of courses which I was very disappointed with. The learning curve felt ridiculously flat and the courses were just plain ordinary and way too simple even if this course was the first one you ever tried. It was composed of three levels which could be bought separately (Living Language Essential French, Living Language Intermediate French, Living Language Advanced French) or as one big lot of courses together in a kind of box-set. So slow/flat was the learning curve, I feel the three levels could've been condensed into one volume were the unnecessary aspects taken out. The more advanced of the three levels was not at all advanced in my opinion, but I couldn't stomach using the course and only leafed through it (I completed the Essential and Intermediate levels). I didn't pursue finding the much talked about meatier/older Living Language courses as the amount of materials I owned already was insane and quite frankly I didn't need it nor at least half of the other French courses I owned.

If you liked FSI like drills and want a similar course or if budget is an issue you could go for the DLI French Basic course. If you want something free but more advanced you could try the Peace Corps Le français basé sur la compétence, of which there are several levels. If you want an all round course with video, audio, a story, grammar and some immersion, go for French in Action. You want to predominantly improve listening through video? I think Yabla is a great platform for this. The Hugo Advanced French and Colloquial French 2 are shorter courses that are at least beyond the basic stages if you're looking for something shorter. If you need advanced content and want something different to FSI I will suggest some other courses listed below:

Assimil Using French,
Assimil Business French,
CLE Grammaire Progressif du français (niveaux avancé et perfectionnement),
Practise Makes Perfect series
The second level French linguaphone course (I've never seen this one but heard good things),
Cours de langue et de civilisation françaises (niveaux III et IV)

or if you want to go for further structure or target exams you could look at any of the exam preparation exam books, but I think it's probably not the right time for that just yet and it also depends on your goals.
Quite helpful précis of French resources for beyond the basics. Thanks, Peter.
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Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:36 pm

Le Baron wrote:At the risk of adding fuel to this escalating dumpster fire of advice I just want to quote this:
PeterMollenburg wrote:Nowadays I feel I'm a good B2-level French language user and no longer feel I can self assess myself as a C-level French language user, as the reality is some of the language has atrophied as I don't generally push my skills. Still, when it's time to target a c-level French exam again, it should not be too difficult to pick up the books again, dust off some dusty vocabulary cobwebs...

You'll be familiar with my tiresome waywardness with regard to people gunning for the coveted 'C2', though from what I read in your log (which I do read; not religiously, but I'm not religious anyway) this sort of thing is more of a hindrance to you than any sort of help. Why would I say such a thing? Only because it collides with your general approach as outlined in a couple of the replies above, with regard to 'doing' and playing the game:
PeterMollenburg wrote:Is it more interesting to train for the game or to play the game?

I agree. Not that I would be a clever dick and say 'only play the game', because I believe in study as much as anyone. You seem to me like a confident user of French, with a lot of experience. Also someone who doesn't need to punish himself with the acquisition of something dictated by an exam with a name. For you the question probably shouldn't be: 'Pierre, are you C1/C2?' But rather: 'Alors Pierre, depuis combien de temps parles-tu français? Tu parles très bien!'.

I will posit Pieter Mollenburg and invent his identical twin brother Dirk Mollenburg. We all meet in the van Gogh museum and walk around speaking in Dutch about the paintings we're looking at. In a café the next day Pieter tells me (at length and in Dutch) about how van Gogh's style changed when he moved to Arles in the south of France; more light and colour. Le Baron finds this all very impressive, including the Dutch. Then Dirk intervenes to tell me about what possibly led to the unhappy painter's mental decline...also in very respectable Dutch, but Dirk also tells me he passed the C2 exam in Dutch, since he had to provide the certificate for a job. Pieter, looking into his empty coffee cup, laments ruefully (in Dutch) that he hasn't and that he actually failed it. And yet Le Baron is puzzled because Pieter is speaking perfectly good Dutch, no different than Dirk. At which point a waitress asks if we would like another drink and Pieter automatically responds with: 'Ja graag, ik neem nog een koffie, and 'mogen we een lunchmenu?'

Anyone I've ever met with whom I spoke a different language, has never asked me and I've never asked them if they 'passed C1/C2'. Or any other CEFR level. It only mattered that each party understood.


Your points are largely valid, so I certainly do not deny the simple truth in your analyses. With regards to the Dutch depiction you so eloquently provided, what does 'koffie' mean? :lol:

Your depiction seems to make it clear that you're aware of my reasonsing for chasing the C2 certificate. Still, I will explain (what you already know). The C2 target felt to me like a possibility of proving (officially) one's pursuit of French to the advanced levels of the language and the (official) recognition of having reached/achieved just that. Not necessary but a motivating (and sometimes demotivating) goal.

Thanks for your kind assessment btw, but while you're somewhat close to the mark I don't think you're quite on the mark. I'm not so sure I'd manage quite as well in Dutch as you've illustrated, but give me a few more years as I continue to use the language regularly and gradually as I slowly improve/expand in language use and application, then perhaps yes.
Last edited by PeterMollenburg on Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:47 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:Quite helpful précis of French resources for beyond the basics. Thanks, Peter.


No probs ;)
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby Cavesa » Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:36 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:
Anyone I've ever met with whom I spoke a different language, has never asked me and I've never asked them if they 'passed C1/C2'. Or any other CEFR level. It only mattered that each party understood.


Your points are largely valid, so I certainly do not deny the simple truth in your analyses. With regards to the Dutch depiction you so eloquently provided, what does 'koffie' mean? :lol:

Your depiction seems to make it clear that you're aware of my reasonsing for chasing the C2 certificate. Still, I will explain (what you already know). The C2 target felt to me like a possibility of proving (officially) one's pursuit of French to the advanced levels of the language and the (official) recognition of having reached/achieved just that. Not necessary but a motivating (and sometimes demotivating) goal.

Thanks for your kind assessment btw, but while you're somewhat close to the mark I don't think you're quite on the mark. I'm not so sure I'd manage quite as well in Dutch as you've illustrated, but give me a few more years as I continue to use the language regularly and gradually as I slowly improve/expand in language use and application, then perhaps yes.


It's just about a different life situation. Of course I have been asked, whether I had passed any language certificates and/or about my CEFR level. And C1 or C2 makes a much better impression than B2, even if B2 is very often the officially required minimum. The C1/C2 difference is much smaller (C1 is seen as definitely good enough), but C2 still makes a hell of an impression. Both the skills, and also the official proof. Perhaps not in the anglophone countries, but definitely in Europe, where the CEFR is rather known, even though with some major misconceptions (which can even be fortunate for the C1 or C2 certificate holder ;-) )

And I think we both know, PM, that you will be asked about them just like me, or will be able to easily slip this piece of info in a job interview. And it will matter. People think like "Oh, C2! That's impossible! He must be so clever and also dedicated to our language and culture, not like the usual immigrants barely speaking the language and making our everyday lives harder".

In the other situations, like the depicted carefree conversation, people don't ask. It doesn't matter. But you'll know you'll have achieved this and it will be nice. And the comfort may be useful in some other moments, when someone tries to screw you over and gaslight you into believing your language skills to be to blame. Every piece of confidence is useful in such moments. First hand experience.

C2 certificates are not a necessity. Nor are the exams 100% precise, nor the only thing that matters/proves a high level. But I think they get underestimated all the time.

And I don't understand why people aiming for language certificates get so often shamed in online communities of learners. Is it just some sort of jealousy or anti-intellectualism? Untreated school trauma? I don't know. But vast majority of exam oriented threads (here, on reddit, on other forums, youtube, etc) gets more than a fair share of exam criticism and opinions on why you shouldn't "just collect certificates that have nothing to do with the real life" and other such nonsense.

So, when are you finally signing up for the DALF or TCF, PM? I've been cheering for you for so long! I am sooo looking forward to it! :-D :-D :-D
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby tractor » Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:48 pm

Cavesa wrote:And I don't understand why people aiming for language certificates get so often shamed in online communities of learners. Is it just some sort of jealousy or anti-intellectualism? Untreated school trauma? I don't know. But vast majority of exam oriented threads (here, on reddit, on other forums, youtube, etc) gets more than a fair share of exam criticism and opinions on why you shouldn't "just collect certificates that have nothing to do with the real life" and other such nonsense.

Maybe it has something to do with people's background and why they're learning languages, i.e. the difference in attitudes between those who are learning languages just as a hobby or as self-education and those who are learning languages because they need to in order to succed in getting the job that they want, live in a foreign country etc.?
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:31 pm

Cavesa wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:
Anyone I've ever met with whom I spoke a different language, has never asked me and I've never asked them if they 'passed C1/C2'. Or any other CEFR level. It only mattered that each party understood.


Your points are largely valid, so I certainly do not deny the simple truth in your analyses. With regards to the Dutch depiction you so eloquently provided, what does 'koffie' mean? :lol:

Your depiction seems to make it clear that you're aware of my reasonsing for chasing the C2 certificate. Still, I will explain (what you already know). The C2 target felt to me like a possibility of proving (officially) one's pursuit of French to the advanced levels of the language and the (official) recognition of having reached/achieved just that. Not necessary but a motivating (and sometimes demotivating) goal.

Thanks for your kind assessment btw, but while you're somewhat close to the mark I don't think you're quite on the mark. I'm not so sure I'd manage quite as well in Dutch as you've illustrated, but give me a few more years as I continue to use the language regularly and gradually as I slowly improve/expand in language use and application, then perhaps yes.


It's just about a different life situation. Of course I have been asked, whether I had passed any language certificates and/or about my CEFR level. And C1 or C2 makes a much better impression than B2, even if B2 is very often the officially required minimum. The C1/C2 difference is much smaller (C1 is seen as definitely good enough), but C2 still makes a hell of an impression. Both the skills, and also the official proof. Perhaps not in the anglophone countries, but definitely in Europe, where the CEFR is rather known, even though with some major misconceptions (which can even be fortunate for the C1 or C2 certificate holder ;-) )

And I think we both know, PM, that you will be asked about them just like me, or will be able to easily slip this piece of info in a job interview. And it will matter. People think like "Oh, C2! That's impossible! He must be so clever and also dedicated to our language and culture, not like the usual immigrants barely speaking the language and making our everyday lives harder".

In the other situations, like the depicted carefree conversation, people don't ask. It doesn't matter. But you'll know you'll have achieved this and it will be nice. And the comfort may be useful in some other moments, when someone tries to screw you over and gaslight you into believing your language skills to be to blame. Every piece of confidence is useful in such moments. First hand experience.

C2 certificates are not a necessity. Nor are the exams 100% precise, nor the only thing that matters/proves a high level. But I think they get underestimated all the time.

And I don't understand why people aiming for language certificates get so often shamed in online communities of learners. Is it just some sort of jealousy or anti-intellectualism? Untreated school trauma? I don't know. But vast majority of exam oriented threads (here, on reddit, on other forums, youtube, etc) gets more than a fair share of exam criticism and opinions on why you shouldn't "just collect certificates that have nothing to do with the real life" and other such nonsense.

So, when are you finally signing up for the DALF or TCF, PM? I've been cheering for you for so long! I am sooo looking forward to it! :-D :-D :-D


Hi Cavesa,

Yes, I agree that it seems quite common for other language learners to almost attempt to talk others out of sitting exams. I guess I hadn't contemplated this from a reflective perspective, but doing just that - i.e. reflecting on your comments, you're absolutely right. This is quite common. I'll add that I don't necessarily believe that those who take part in this are out to denegrate language exams or those who wish to sit them. Perhaps it comes from a I wouldn't be bothered sitting it, so why should they (a projection of one's own reasoning for not seeing the purpuse in sitting such exams onto the person who wishes to do just that).

And of course, many are genuine and don't see the point. Their reasoning is valid, but you're right Cavesa, that for people like yourself this is highly useful (sitting C2 exams, providing the evidence). For me it's questionable. Were I to emigrate, it's absolutely highly valuable, but I just don't know whether I will. Still, that said, I'd still like to sit these exams in various languages (at least that's how I feel now), as it's a goal to aim for, an official piece of evidence that one has officially reached such a level, and it might come in handy some day for employment purposes.

I just read your latest post in your log mentioning having children. It's most definitely possible to continue to progress with language learning, provided you arrange your day in a way that is conducive to this. However, not all people work in positions that allow for much time at work (that's even a bonus for me - but there are always break times, if you get them) or at home even (if you're working long days for example), but I'm a firm believer in where there is a will there's a way. I'll add 'easier said than done' to the mix, because it's not a straight-forward thing.

I don't know when I'll sit the French C2. I have no time to prepare for it currently. Norwegian is my main language focus currently and like you, I'm trying to bring a language to a sufficiently high enough level for it to go into a mode that will allow for it's sustainability and survival. Perhaps I'll return to French after I'm confident that Norwegian has reached that stage, which isn't necessarily that high of a level, as once I introduce it as a 'reading language' with my kids, the tiny snow ball has started rolling ever so slowly down the big mountain. Perhaps I'll go onto Spanish or improving my Dutch after Norwegian (and not go back to French just yet). I'm not going to say something and then change my plans two seconds later.

As for the 6WC, I need to get my game face on and claw back the 'losses' - this game isn't over yet! ;)
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Le Baron
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby Le Baron » Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:38 pm

I've been knocking around the language interwebs for quite a while (and also in the non-internet world for quite a while) and I've seen much less disdain for earning certificates than for taking official courses. The latter are characterised - especially on here - as people who teach you nothing and steal all your money in the process.

Apparently these institutions guiding students to pass exams (since these are usually part of and the end-goal of the courses), using the same CEFR syllabi designed for passing these exams, are tricking everyone, but the certificates themselves are worthy. However the very enthusiastic and the less enthusiastic alike seem to converge in saying they are mainly for CVs and jobs. No matter what some person might draw as a pre-ordained conclusion upon seeing someone holds a certain certificate.

When I was teaching and met students for tutorials, I would sometimes talk with one who spoke very good English or French, and later either see on a CV, or they would mention, that they had some certificate. Perhaps the Cambridge one or equivalent in French. And I would congratulate them on their achievement. Yet to me the core achievement was in speaking/writing the language well and it wouldn't have mattered to me whether or not they held the certificate. If no-one had mentioned it I would still be impressed, after all I had just spoken to the person! Had I seen the certificate beforehand I could only ever wait until speaking with the person to see any match. And unless the discrepancy was strikingly disappointing, it would again be irrelevant by that point. Being able to manage a discussion of e.g. Kalecki, in whatever language, only depends upon the ability to manage a discussion of Kalecki in whatever language; not a report from their certificate.

So it's pretty clear to me that certificates are 1) currency for officialdom, and 2) personal achievement receipts. Which is not a criticism, but a reminder that both of those are not a necessary condition for when you come to deliver the actual goods. Though officialdom may prevent some people ever getting to that point at all.
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