PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

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jeffers
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby jeffers » Thu May 11, 2023 10:22 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:I really ought to try more to create a bit of a French (and Dutch) network, since at this stage it's almost as if I'm condemning myself to live in a monolingual wasteland. "Poor me, I'm so deprived of French speakers, no-one wants to hang out with me or my kids!" Huh? What? No, PM, you need to check yo' self, fool.


While checking yo' self, have you ever checked Meetup? For a few months I went every week to a French meetup with local learners but also 3-4 native speakers who just wanted the chance to speak their language. I stopped when I got a new job further away from the meetup, but it was a good experience. The Leicester French meetup has several different types of events. I imagine if I still lived there and had children who could speak a bit of French, I could arrange a French speaking playgroup through the app. Something to check while checking yo' self.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat May 13, 2023 4:33 am

jeffers wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:I really ought to try more to create a bit of a French (and Dutch) network, since at this stage it's almost as if I'm condemning myself to live in a monolingual wasteland. "Poor me, I'm so deprived of French speakers, no-one wants to hang out with me or my kids!" Huh? What? No, PM, you need to check yo' self, fool.


While checking yo' self, have you ever checked Meetup? For a few months I went every week to a French meetup with local learners but also 3-4 native speakers who just wanted the chance to speak their language. I stopped when I got a new job further away from the meetup, but it was a good experience. The Leicester French meetup has several different types of events. I imagine if I still lived there and had children who could speak a bit of French, I could arrange a French speaking playgroup through the app. Something to check while checking yo' self.


Hey jeffers,

I used to use the app/platform some years ago, but haven't for many years now as it became too difficult for me to go to the meetups with family, homeschooling, other activities and commitments including evening shifts. Still, I might investigate this as there may be an existing group or it might work out to set up a group myself that works better for my current circumstances. Tnx for the suggestion! Good luck with your current studies btw!

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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed May 31, 2023 11:46 am

May update....

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Norwegian

Reading to the kids: 2 hours 12min
Course work: 16 hours 54min
Audio course use: 7 hours 46 min
TV 2 hours

TOTAL: 28 hours 52 min
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Spanish

Reading to the kids: 1 hour 51 min
Course work: 17 hours 18 min
Audio course use: 9 hours 29min

TOTAL: 28 hours 38min
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French

Reading to the kids: 9 hours 20min

(+ other activities not recorded) = TOTAL of 10 hours 15min
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Dutch

Reading to the kids: 7 hours 34 minutes

TOTAL: 7hours 34 minutes
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General stuff:

My reading to the kids has dropped off. Our eldest has been attending school now for some months, which was a big change for our household and has affected the amount of foreign language reading at home, together with my focus on kayaking, which I don't regret as I really needed to get active.

------------------------------------
General Norwegian and Spanish stuff:

I've really picked up the consistent course use in May with slow progress in Norwegian and fast progress in Spanish. With The Mystery of Nils (Norwegian) I'm up to chapter 15 now and with Destinos (Spanish) I'm finishing off lesson 7 and enjoying it thoroughly.

I find that when I do vocabulary work with Spanish I feel ten times faster than in Norwegian purely due to the fact that Spanish pronunciation is completely predictable (stress, all short vowel sounds), while Norwegian pronunciation is unpredictable (slow lookups in Dictionaries to confirm tone and pronunciation where unclear). It's a shame, otherwise I'd be advancing so much quicker in Norwegian, a relatively straightforward language.

Still, the grammar of Norwegian is new, while all the content I'm covering thus far in Spanish is not - I've done it before several times, spread out over two and a half decades.

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A Spanish study side note:

I was almost shocked a couple of days back when I was doing some Spanish and given I used to write my answers in language learning textbooks back in the day, I get a picture into my life of two and a half decades back with some of my answers to questions that focus(ed) on me and my personal life - pre university, pre marriage, pre kids, still living at home and so on. For one of the answers I'd noted down from many years ago, I'd written the age of my father. He was nearly my age. Meaning in a few months from now, I will be the same age as he was back when I was writing in those answers! So, it's been 24 and a half years since that reply was written in by myself! WOW! So....

I was a procrastinator in a big way back then but have improved significantly over the years, but boy.... if there were any left in my cells, it almost all vaporised in that moment. Life is too short, get on with the task at hand and don't delay, because before you know it another 25 years will have passed!

Of course now I have a lot more responsability and barely have enough time to scratch myself. However, I'm determined to make consistent progress, perhaps more than ever, but not just with languages. Life is very short - make the most of it, value it, use your time wisely!

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French (and Dutch) general observations:

I feel like my French of late has slipped a little with my listening comprehension feeling a little weaker of late... Ah well, I'll definitely come back to fix this at a later date (same with Dutch, but worse, as I never progressed as far as I did with French).

---------------------------------
Pronunciation points from The Mystery of Nils

In the Mystery of Nils there is a page discussing pronunciation. I'd like to bring this up, but I know it's going to be a little controversial. It goes like this:

The Mystery of Nils wrote:Why Your Norwegian is Still Bad
(Although You Are Reading This Book)

With our new students at Skapago, we nearly always begin by working on pronunciation. Why? Well honestly, because most students' pronunciation is just so bad! But that is okay, because we are a language school, and that is why people come to us, to learn.

However, this does not just apply to beginners. We also have advanced students with a great understanding of vocabulary and grammar, but who have a very strong foreign accent.

Now you might say this depends on where the students come from and that some simply have a very strong accent. You are wrong. The reason why people have bad pronunciation is that they haven't worked sufficiently on it. So why don't students work on pronunciation? And why should they? Let me answer the last question first.

*Misunderstandings are much more frequent because of pronunciation errors than because of grammar mistakes.
*Your listening comprehension depends on your pronunciation. You train your ear to distinguish between sounds which are not familiar to you. For example, in Norwegian it is very important to know the difference between U, Y, and I.
*Native speakers will laugh at you. This last issue is more important than you might think. Scientists have proven that native speakers unconsciously believe that people with a strong foreign accent are less intelligent. Be honest: have you never watched "The Simpsons" and made fun of Apu?

As a learner you feel that native speakers think that way, even if they don't want to - so you will get frustrated. Unknowingly, you are going to think "These arrogant Norwegians! I'm fed up with them!"

And what's the consequence? You do not want to be one of them, you do not wish to talk like them, or to have the correct accent.

So herein lies a vicious cycle: You have bad pronunciation because deep inside your heart you do not want to be Norwegian. Therefore, Norwegians do not treat you as one of them. Therefore, you think they are arrogant. Therefore, you do not want to be like them. Therefore, you have bad pronunciation.

So now you know the reason why people don't work on their pronunciation.

From a few teachers, you might hear that a foreign accent is a question of age. I totally disagree. It is a question of attitude. The way we speak - our pronunciation - is a main component of our personal identity. Many adults have formed such a strong relationship with their first culture that they are afraid of losing their identity when they change their pronunciation, i.e. when they learn a second language. Only if you understand that these are baseless fears will you be able to learn a new language well. And why are the fears baseless? Well, your "new" identity will not replace your "old" identity, but enhance it. As the Czech philosopher and politician Tomas Garrigue Masaryk said, "As many languages you know, as many times you are a human being".

So you see, pronunciation is by far a worse problem than just one of your language issues. It will have an impact on your self-esteem, on your cultural affection towards Norway, and on your relationship with native speakers. But the good news is: you can improve all that by simply improving your pronunciation. So get started right now! You can find tips on http://www.skapago.eu/nils, and if you have questions, please send an e-mail (nils@skapago.eu) to Nils.


I agree almost entirely with the above. Although, I've seemingly crossed paths with those who contradict the above statements and I remain unsure on these (ie. some people who have worked hard on their pronunciation and still cannot improve it despite plenty of effort). I feel strongly that identity and fear of loss of identity is it the heart of some language learners' problematic pronunciation and might be the case here... but someone else more qualified could perhaps draw more resolute conclusions on such matters.

I remember when beginning to learn languages initially in a serious manner, that I had thoughts on my identity and that I decided to throw caution to the wind wanting to be 'one of them' i.e. a Frenchman, Spaniard etc and in learning I would imagine myself as such, going as far as trying to erase any evidence of my native language in the pronunciation of the new language(s). I was not afraid of losing my Australian identity whatsoever, and I do feel that helped me when learning pronunciation.

I know there's been a good deal of mentioning of 'perfect being the enemy of the good' around these parts, and while I initially flatly disagreed, I came round to agreeing, within reason. Here are a couple of examples:

When learning to read extensively, looking up everything (perfectionism) is a potential hinderance, unless of course that is what has been proven to work for you. In which case I'd label your studying method as intensive reading not extensive, at least at the less advanced stages or reading. So here, yes, perfectionism will get in the way of an extensive reading objective.

Another thing that I've noticed is that initially some years back when using language courses I'd look up every single little word, even the ones you could clearly see were superfluous (eg a sign on the outside of a shop in an episode of Destinos). Nowadays, I can see that this sort of thing doesn't really need to draw you away from the general progress of a language course, as such details, not requiring focus in the early stages of learning a language will come later after you've built the foundation and then want to fill in all the gaps. It took years of study to teach me this lesson, to teach me to relax (just a little) knowing what (how much study) was ahead of me and that every single little word didn't matter so much.

Back onto pronunciation however, my personal approach, - and this doesn't have to be how others approach their language learning - is one of constant focus on pronunciation through whatever learning activity I'm doing whether it be writing (and speaking aloud), vocabulary review (and speaking aloud), shadowing and so on. It's akin to my kayaking - while delivering power through each paddle stroke, one must constantly focus on technique to improve efficiency. With language learning, I feel that some people give up on improving their pronunciation because it's too hard - and this could be linked to identity conflict (as quoted above from Nils), or a personality type that just wants to get on with learning the language and doesn't have the patience to focus on pronunciation...

...And that's okay, but for me, perfectionism (or least aiming to be as close to native as I feel I sound through self observation + feedback from others at times) with pronunciation is not the enemy of the good - it's a very worthwhile investment.

Put it this way, when it comes to time investment in pronunciation, I'd rather speak three languages with excellent pronunciation than five with mediocre pronunciation.

Still, if such detailed focus on pronunciation is a source of stress for you and hinders your progress, don't worry about it, some accents after all sound pretty cool, so just keep on learning your way! ;)
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby tastyonions » Wed May 31, 2023 1:48 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:Pronunciation points from The Mystery of Nils

In the Mystery of Nils there is a page discussing pronunciation. I'd like to bring this up, but I know it's going to be a little controversial. It goes like this:

Very interesting post and excerpt. I had read of the idea that protecting one's identity could be one reason for not "going native" with respect to accent when learning a language, but I hadn't thought of that vicious cycle aspect before, i.e. people with a bad accent feel rejection from natives and that pushes them even further away from wanting to change their accent and "assimilate."

Pronunciation is quite important to me. The first thing I do before officially "starting" a language is look up info on its phonology and orthography. I don't think I focus on it as much as you do, but it's definitely crucial to me that I'm at least producing all the correct phonemes so that won't ever be a source of misunderstanding.
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby iguanamon » Wed May 31, 2023 10:56 pm

As can be seen in my profile, I have yet to learn any languages with difficult pronunciation. Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, Haitian Creole, Lesser Antilles French Creole are very phonetic and quite regular in their pronunciation, thankfully.

The language with the most difficulty in pronunciation for me is Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol due primarily to the abundance of Hebrew, Arabic, and Turkish loanwords.

My Brazilian Portuguese pronunciation is São Paulo focused. My Spanish pronunciation is Caribbean focused. My Haitian pronunciation is Pòtoprens. My down-island creole is St Lucian. My Catalan is heavily Barcelona. My Ladino is Estambol Turkish- it would be more trouble to maintain if I actually spoke Ladino on even a semi-regular basis... which I don't.
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby jackb » Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:01 pm

This is very interesting, but I don't think it's that deep for most non-language learning enthusiasts. People rarely practice pronunciation because they are rarely taught it. One of the most commonly recommend methods for learning pronunciation is Pimsleur, which doesn't actually teach it. Just listen->repeat and you'll pick it up....unless you don't. If language coures and teachers don't value it, why would the students?

I didn't concentrate or even really think about pronunciation in the beginning, but it's recently been a part of everything I do and probably will be from now on.
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:30 pm

tastyonions wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:Pronunciation points from The Mystery of Nils

In the Mystery of Nils there is a page discussing pronunciation. I'd like to bring this up, but I know it's going to be a little controversial. It goes like this:

Very interesting post and excerpt. I had read of the idea that protecting one's identity could be one reason for not "going native" with respect to accent when learning a language, but I hadn't thought of that vicious cycle aspect before, i.e. people with a bad accent feel rejection from natives and that pushes them even further away from wanting to change their accent and "assimilate."


I think this kind of psychology appears in many forms in life. If we are honest with ourselves or analyse the lives and behaviour of others patterns can show up. For example, someone always seeing the bad side of people, perhaps in a particular town. They might hold the unconscious sentiment that 'everyone/most people in this town/suburb are _____'. They look for examples to support their view which reinforces their belief. They then perhaps unconsciously interact with others that they feel are part of that group with unconscious (or obvious) contempt. People in return sense this and don't take a liking to the person in question, perhaps treat them with contempt, even poorly, further validating the person's views... and so the cycle repeats. What you put out there tends to come back.

tastyonions wrote:Pronunciation is quite important to me. The first thing I do before officially "starting" a language is look up info on its phonology and orthography. I don't think I focus on it as much as you do, but it's definitely crucial to me that I'm at least producing all the correct phonemes so that won't ever be a source of misunderstanding.


I'm pretty similar to you, I think. Depending on the language and how much focus is needed to imitate native speech effectively. With French, I found the nasal vowels called for quite a bit of focus to learn to spot them in their written form or speech and to distinguish them from one another. For a long time I continued to refer to IPA phonetics with dictionary look-ups fairly consistently but gradually dropping off in frequency from the beginning stages through to intermediate.

With Spanish and Dutch, like French and like yourself, I'd review the phonetics in the beginning and return to some of these periodically for clarity usually only in the beginning stages of learning these languages.

Unfortunately with Norwegian the tones have demanded more attention as they are mostly unpredictable and I don't want to sound like a foreigner by ignoring them.

Generally speaking however, I move away from referencing/clarifying pronunciation as soon as I can once all pronunciation patterns are recognised, but with some languages this is rather quick and with others it's slow. Still, even after ceasing use of such 'guides', I always self analyse my own speech, drawing from what I know about correct pronunciation to keep me in check, but at some point this really is largely unconscious and effortless almost like it is with one's native language.
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:10 am

iguanamon wrote:As can be seen in my profile, I have yet to learn any languages with difficult pronunciation. Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, Haitian Creole, Lesser Antilles French Creole are very phonetic and quite regular in their pronunciation, thankfully.

The language with the most difficulty in pronunciation for me is Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol due primarily to the abundance of Hebrew, Arabic, and Turkish loanwords.

My Brazilian Portuguese pronunciation is São Paulo focused. My Spanish pronunciation is Caribbean focused. My Haitian pronunciation is Pòtoprens. My down-island creole is St Lucian. My Catalan is heavily Barcelona. My Ladino is Estambol Turkish- it would be more trouble to maintain if I actually spoke Ladino on even a semi-regular basis... which I don't.


I can't comment on your other languages, but if only all languages had a writing system as Spanish does - you hear it, you know how it's written 99% of the time, or you write it, and you know how it's said. No grey areas! It makes learning it more efficient than other languages which aren't as straightforward when one can use the 'time savings' on other learning activities.

And Spanish learning materials are abundant. Still, these languages don't learn themselves and easier pronunciation is just one aspect. Learning any language to an advanced level is no walk in the park. On the contrary, trying to find learning content for the minority languages you have learned must've been challenging!
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:37 am

jackb wrote:This is very interesting, but I don't think it's that deep for most non-language learning enthusiasts. People rarely practice pronunciation because they are rarely taught it. One of the most commonly recommend methods for learning pronunciation is Pimsleur, which doesn't actually teach it. Just listen->repeat and you'll pick it up....unless you don't. If language coures and teachers don't value it, why would the students?

I didn't concentrate or even really think about pronunciation in the beginning, but it's recently been a part of everything I do and probably will be from now on.


I appreciate your reply, jackb, but I don't actually agree on your evaluation of language courses being devoid of teaching pronunciation. Perhaps we've not used many of the same resources, but I have found that a good deal of language courses do teach it - some less thoroughly than others, definitely - whether it appears in a dedicated reference section at the front of the course book, sprinkled throughout the course or both. Some leave a bit to be desired, but most sit somewhere between a weak attempt and very thorough pronunciation focus.

And the accompanying audio components can sometimes be all one needs - with careful analytical listening, perhaps some pausing and replaying, and careful imitating/shadowing, such audio components can be of great value for pronunciation practise. Use the audio and pay attention to their notes on pronunciation as well and it should get you well on your way.

Pimsleur, I feel is excellent for putting a rudimentary (or even zero) understanding of pronunciation for a beginner into practise, as it is usually so slow in the beginning and so clearly enunciated that it is teaching pronunciation (and I believe that is the goal, in part) - all you got to do is imitate what you hear. Once you have learned a little, more phonemes are introduced and the pace picks up.

I have found sometimes that I've felt the need to refer to pronunciation notes from more than one course at a time, as some explanations of how certain phonemes are pronounced don't always make sense to me. And for French, I took it upon myself to learn IPA, so that I'd know how to pronounce new (perhaps strange) words by using a dictionary and refering to the IPA written beside each entry.

So, I think we need to take matters into our own hands sometimes. If a course lacks a pronunciation guide and you don't have audio, or if a teacher doesn't help much, seek out another source, listen to some audio, learn IPA, find a pronunciation guide online. Okay, for minority languages, these might not exist, in which case I have no experience or suggestions (aside from a native speaker if you know one).
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby jackb » Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:11 pm

Pimsleur, I feel is excellent for putting a rudimentary (or even zero) understanding of pronunciation for a beginner into practise, as it is usually so slow in the beginning and so clearly enunciated that it is teaching pronunciation (and I believe that is the goal, in part) - all you got to do is imitate what you hear. Once you have learned a little, more phonemes are introduced and the pace picks up.

I have found sometimes that I've felt the need to refer to pronunciation notes from more than one course at a time, as some explanations of how certain phonemes are pronounced don't always make sense to me. And for French, I took it upon myself to learn IPA, so that I'd know how to pronounce new (perhaps strange) words by using a dictionary and refering to the IPA written beside each entry.


I feel that Pimsleur does a good job of getting you to speak and the pronunciation just happens or doesn't. I did 4 levels of it (poorly) and it left me frustrated because I was expected to make these sounds I had no idea how to make. All I knew is that I was making them badly. It was one of my first attempts at learning French an an adult. The whole program would be made better if they added a 'tape' (yes I'm old) with how to make the sounds of the language. If I use the program again, I'll go through my own thorough pronunciation intro first.

You're right that some courses have good clear audio and it may be all you need to learn good pronunciation, but just because you learn something from the materials of a course doesn't mean the course taught it.

I have found sometimes that I've felt the need to refer to pronunciation notes from more than one course at a time, as some explanations of how certain phonemes are pronounced don't always make sense to me. And for French, I took it upon myself to learn IPA, so that I'd know how to pronounce new (perhaps strange) words by using a dictionary and refering to the IPA written beside each entry.


I totally agree. As I became a more experienced learner, I found my way to IPA in an effort to explain what my ears were hearing and how to make my sounds match.
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