PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Oct 18, 2022 9:46 pm

tractor wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:Why paper dictionaries? Threefold.
1. Lover of tangible paper learning materials.
2. Preparation for the (partial?) collapse of modern society - paper books might cease to exist. If it doesn't happen, well at least I enjoy flicking through them while learning.

Digital = more centralised control over information received by a consuming public. The justification of editing, fact-checking and outright censorship during the pandemic parading like some kind of paternalistic protection measures (apparently it's too dangerous to work things out for ourselves) carried out for 'the greater good' is nothing but blatant lies. Fear drives control. Taking down ample amounts of valid research actually carried out for the betterment of human health or so-called 'debunking it' might as well be 1984's Ministry of Truth in action. I'm waiting for the day it becomes acceptable to 'edit' previously published works (books) to fit with 'modern acceptable standards' or (socially engineered) norms.

Well, there are a lot of things to worry about in this day and age, but manipulating dictionaries to mislead and control the masses..?


I was referring to digital format books in general. I was indicating that given the justifications during the pandemic used to control information such as on the internet (digital), that it's not too far of a stretch to foresee digital books being altered in future. Manipulation of information to illicit certain reactions in the public (eg the search for weapons of mass destruction to justify war) in mass media is common practise. Taking this further to iclude digital books is foreseeable, but of course not a given, so I hope my concerns don't turn out to be correct. Still, I've heard of certain books being ignored while topping bestseller lists and being removed from certain big sellers. The paper dictionaries and enjoyment of tangible learning materials led me to that rant. I def. could've been a bit clearer there, as manipulation of paper dictionaries does sound absurd, I agree.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:40 am

After actually fitting in a few hours of Norwegian study today, developing word/vocab lists in my notebook NO to FR and EN and again taking lots of time to ensure my FR translations were correct, I think I'm drawing closer to a few conclusions:


1) My French needs improving...

I knew that, and I'm feeling it of late as it's not as fluid as it once was and while I look up a lot of things in the dictionary to ascertain accurate translations and I often find myself totally in agreement with the French translations, they don't always come to mind that way. Perhaps a better way to describe this is that some of my once active knowledge seems to be becoming more passive. And of course while flicking through the dictionaries I'm finding uknown expressions too. There always will be unknowns, but there's room for improvement.

Speaking to someone recently in French via a recording (not a live conversation) also made me realise I'm doing a bit of word searching. I also think my lack of working with French resources through active study as well as lack of French speaking partners is ever so gradually Australian-ising my accent (ie I used to be better).

All this is to be expected when I never made it to C2 and beyond (which would mean I'd hold my level better) and I have not been seriously studying French for some time. Okay a few patches of serious-ish study, but no decent runs in the recent past.


2) Learning Norwegian and French simultaneously is inefficient.

Best to do them both separately in a more efficient manner. Using the dictionaries to ensure my French translations are correct is tediously slow (and doubly confirms that my French isn't where I want it to be). Writing the vocabulary lists instead translated into only one language, most often EN, sometimes FR depending on my resource being used (English or French-based Norwegian learning content) will be more efficient for learning Norwegian (since I won't be fiddling about concering myself with correct French translations). Then separating out my French study into a separate block of study, would be also more effective for my French learning using decent resources aimed at improving my French (and having nothing to do with Norwegian) for that dedicated block of study.

I feel that while translators/interpreters likely rely rather heavily on dictionaries at times, there is still a good deal of intuitive translation that streamlines much of the more straightforward translations and I doubt that knowledge has come from working out translations via dictionaries via the learning of another foreign language.

However, do I add Dutch for maintenance/slow building too? ie. on French days (with the kids) I do Norwegian study mainly plus what French study I can manage and on Dutch days for the kids I do a bit of Dutch study on top of my Norwegian learning. OR, do I just do ALL Norwegian, let my French and Dutch slide a bit more and just focus on Norwegian for a good while until I'm ready to come back to FR/NL learning? I wouldn't be dropping FR/NL altogether, reading and speaking with the kids in both languages continues as it's part of our routine.

I think, given language learning is likely better over a longer period of time enabling slow but sure building of structures and vocabulary in one's memory banks/language arsenal, that it's probably better to do some French study at least (and arguably Dutch as well for the same reason) over time while reducing Norwegian a little. It's a problem of time vs language desires as per usual.

In conclusion, I don't feel I have much to lose to just try something a little different next month, or starting from here on? Okay it's not that new, I've tried this sort of thing before without much focus on a plan to do so - I was just doing some French and Dutch study here and there. This time, perhaps making it a plan might mean I'm a bit more focused on accomplishing it regularly. So...

======================================================

The Plan:

1) Vocab lists during Norwegian learning only translated into one language - whichever is most efficient/logical depending on resource(s) used at that point in time.

2) Separate my language study. Norwegian first then French or Dutch left to last in the day since if it's quiet or during a break at work, I can use learning materials in these languages silently without the need for writing / other tools easier than I can for Norwegian currently.

3) While commuting TO work, listen to French or Dutch if I've not studied either yet that day. If I don't get an hour done at work (unlikely usually), meaning I've not sat down to study enough FR/NL yet, then I will listen to FR or NL RETURNING home as well. Once I have reached an hour of FR or NL study, listening can revert to extra Norwegian study whenever that may occur in the day. Thus listening is the back up in case I get no sit down study done for FR/NL.

=======================================================================

In other news....

It's raining heavily again, it's muddy again, there are dams overflowing again. It's flooding (not here) and it's raining again adding to the saturated state of affairs across the eastern states of the country. I can't keep up the the growth of the grass, but at least we're all safe.

I had a day at work a little while ago when many staff members left to go home early because roads were being cut off from rising waters and some couldn't leave as roads were blocked and they ended up sleeping at work. I was lucky, I left later than many cut off but live up a road which took longer to be affected. Driving home that day there was water flowing over the road (but not deep or I simply wouldn't risk it) in places, water streaming through paddocks where I've not seen it before, creeks and small streams turning into rivers and dams overflowing. A river down the road from us rose several meters to go over the surface of the bridge. In summer it's often close to dry. The capacity of the water storage dam where I kayak reached 133%, meaning the water could not spill out over the spillway fast enough to prevent the dam (okay huge lake) from rising well beyond 100%. Some months back I was walking 200 meters from the gateway to the waters edge to put my kayak in. That gate and road were under water recently. Kayaking there after it dropped a little was quite different and slightly unsettling not knowing what was underneath me post floods.

=========================================

Edit:
I've just noticed the 6WC is starting again in the coming days... maybe I'll put my above plan on hold for 6W, go on a NO mission and then proceed with the plan post 6WC? Hmmm....
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Nov 13, 2022 5:13 am

I woke this morning with a headache of sorts after 8.5 to 9 hours sleep. I still needed more sleep as I've missed too much lately, so after my visual disturbances continued (my body's way of demonstrating exhaustion), I went back to bed for 1.5 hours. Later, I fell asleep watching a movie with the kids in Dutch, so... still residual tiredness.

Conclusion; I still can't seem to get it right, that is the balance of life. I'll keep trying. But what's happening with languages?

French
Sturdily present in the family life via TV, podcasts,reading music and speech. I still need to return for some serious study some day. Remains default go-to language for me with the kids.

Dutch
Plodding along. I feel like a B1 user studying once a week. I'm a B1 perhaps, but with no studying. I am at least reading and speaking with the kids regularly. An occasional Dutch TV show is a bit of fun. Also podcasts, reading, music and talking with the kids, but French on French days holds this position better than Dutch on Dutch days. I definitely need to return to studying this language thoroughly some time. The other day I couldn't explain something in Dutch to the kids, so I reverted to French.

Norwegian
The 6WC is going fair on my part. I could be doing better or conversely much worse. I'd like more time on courses with shiny covers and fun written exercises, as opposed to just audio courses on many days. I can now see myself gradually getting up and running with this language, but it's been a tricky start with all I've got going on and a few false starts. 2023 I feel will continue with a focus on Norwegian.

Spanish
Some reading with the kids.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:18 pm

The migraine.... good chance it's hayfever related. I couldn't work out why of all days I had woken up after a good deal of sleep to have migraine-like symptoms (as written about in above post). I expected the symptoms to dissipate thinking perhaps I was just over-tired from a catch up sleep, but it got worse. What had I done different? What's been different of late? Well, the evening before I went out for a kayak for around 45 minutes for the first time in a few weeks, finishing after 7pm (still light here this time of year at that time), and the hayfever has been awful lately. Well, out on a open body of water for 45 minutes, breathing in all the pollen that sweeps in off the surrounding grasslands in a bumper Spring season following heavy rains and warm days. According to this article (in French) discussing some research on migraines vs hay fever: https://www.notrefamille.com/sante/au-quotidien/migraine-14-fois-plus-de-risque-chez-les-personnes-atteintes-de-rhume-des-foins-6622 being a hay fever sufferer, I'm 14 times more likely to be hit with migraines due to the histamines having extra fun in my body. An evening kayaking session in spring is bound to do this. Okay, I still need more sleep, yes, but I feel it wasn't the only reason, and it seems I could be onto something. While I had my kayak ready to go this evening, and it was windy, I ended up giving it a miss, I still didn't feel quite right in the head :lol: and so I didn't feel like battling waves, pollen and then more head pain... best to try again tomorrow. I'll give my underwater ipod system another go tomorrow. Nothing like killing two birds with one stone - Norwegian listening while paddling - I just feel spoiled!

Last night I started randomly looking at Assimil files on my phone as my daughter was drawing in her room before bed. She asked me what I was doing, so I got her to see if she could understand the Dutch sentences and their French translations. Then I showed her a little of the Norwegian course. Then I went onto The Mystery of Nils. It's a good story that I've felt I could try with the kids as one of the first Norwegian stories, given it's from a course book, so I'll know the vocabulary and pronunciation. Well it's not a course I've completed, but I read the first 5 chapters to her, translating into French initially, then remembering we were on a 'Dutch Day' reverting to Dutch translations. The story got her interested, so the next morning (today) I did it again, starting over, this time with the two eldest listening. It seems I've just started reading to the kids in Norwegian. I'll stick to this story, reading it every so often until the kids get a really got understanding of the vocabulary over time. Perhaps in a few months I'll feel confident enough to start reading other Norwegian stories to them as well. We'll see.

The rest of the day we focused on French. I ended up reading for nearly two hours in total with the kids in French today. Some days are just good reading days.

I also managed some Norwegian focused study today in the morning, and a bit of relaxing Norwegian TV in the evening. All in all, a good language day. Back to work tomorrow (post kayaking, reading, studying etc). Throw a bat over your shoulder!
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:30 am

I am sugar/carbs addicted.

I'm tired and it's my fault.

I'm not fit.

I'm so impressed/obsessed with this song. I am officially a massive fan of Bigflo et Oli - so talented, so modest, so French. It makes me want to learn all the lyrics to all their songs. It reignites my passion for this beautiful language on a whole new level.

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:27 pm

My computer finally died. I kept it alive for much longer than expected with a few miracle resurrections along the way. My watching is reduced to using my phone until I figure out what to do there, meaning what kind of computer to buy and when...

I've swapped courses again from the 1990 version of Ny i Norge, which I was meandering through very slowly (poor consistent use) to the English and French versions of The Mystery of Nils. I did this to be better prepared with reading the story from Nils to my kids, but it's also brought with it some positive changes.

Before starting back with Nils (I've been reviewing lessons and re-writing word lists in my vocabulary book), I returned to translating my vocabulary lists to both English as well as French, and now with the corresponding French version of The Mystery of Nils, this process has sped up a lot due to reduced dictionary look ups, as I was often seeking clarification of my French translations.

Then, I've just had the thought a little while ago to return to my old method of writing any unknown vocabulary, phonetics or tone markings in the textbooks/coursebooks themselves in greylead pencil (often at the top of the relevant page) in order to speed things up again. This way I won't need to rewrite many words, which could sometimes be entire lists in my separate vocabulary (exercise) book. Rewriting these items in a separate book is just too slow.

I'll just do what I used to do and review vocab/grammar or redo exercises for 10-15 min at the start of each hour of study by flicking back through the course material. If it's an English based textbook, I'll stick to writing English translations of unknown words, and French in the French based materials, but I'm uncertain what to use for the Norwegian only course materials. Anyway, on the whole I won't need to write out nor translate that many words/expressions now compared to what I've been doing and my pace will pick up, given they will be explained/translated clearly already within the materials. Looking up tone for new words and marking them in my materials will still feature a lot as I don't want to sound like a monotone foreigner. Some good, sensible decisions here for efficiency while retaining accuracy, I feel.

I'm currently reviewing Leksjon 6 of The Mystery of Nils. I think I might've made it to Leksjon 11 some time ago in my first foray into this course, and I expect that the closer I get to Leksjon 11, the more faded the introduced grammar and vocabulary will be in my Norwegian learning memory banks.

Here's to getting past Leksjon 11 and even completing the course. I'll even put a very rough estimated finish date for the course as the end of January (there are 26 lessons).

Fry a potato and call it a fry, or a chip, whatever floats your boat. Just don't come crying to me when you realise Anki has stolen your brain!
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frenchfish55
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby frenchfish55 » Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:42 pm

What has happened with your Spanish?
Will your kids blame you that you stoped those activities?
Your eldest daughter still going to france alliance class or it was too easy and you decided cancel it?
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Le Baron
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby Le Baron » Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:06 pm

frenchfish55 wrote:What has happened with your Spanish?
Will your kids blame you that you stoped those activities?
Your eldest daughter still going to france alliance class or it was too easy and you decided cancel it?

Two questions:

1. Is this all a wind-up?
2. Did you bring us back any souvenirs from Antarctica?
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frenchfish55
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby frenchfish55 » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:51 pm

Le Baron wrote:1. Is this all a wind-up?
2. Did you bring us back any souvenirs from Antarctica?

IF you change back your AVATAR I'll give you a souvenir :-)
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Le Baron
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Re: PM's Multilingual Family Adventures in a Monolingual Wasteland

Postby Le Baron » Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:14 pm

frenchfish55 wrote:IF you change back your AVATAR I'll give you a souvenir :-)

To what? I don't remember what it was.
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