Carpe Coffeam

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zenmonkey
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby zenmonkey » Fri May 13, 2022 10:32 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:Okay, so it seems IPA has limitations I hadn't considered. I use tonal markings for Norwegian with IPA transcription without issue, but I don't know how I'd go with mandarin for example.

Nevertheless to me it is a better system to become accustomed to than TY's invented pronunciation systems or Assimil's. Both assume, they assume that the learner is either English or French. In IPA [y] is [y] even if it isn't 100% accurate it is more reliable than such examples like 'a' as in 'father'. Huh? 'A' in father for who? ie where's the speaker from? So I disagree, I feel BeaP is not entirely correct here as a standardised system such as IPA does elimate that problem (who's pronouncing sound xyz) by simply being standardised regardless of some limitations you have brought to light.


No doubt! It is better and I HATE both Assimil and TY pronunciation guides (and a few others using x for /t͡ʃʰ/).
But I can't work pronunciation with hearing.

And look at what I found...
BeaP wrote:train an adult...

purposeful tenacious practice as @rdearman says...

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garyb
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby garyb » Fri May 13, 2022 4:32 pm

zenmonkey wrote:The IPA is useful to describe differentiating sounds. It doesn't actually cover all productive sounds and is built around usability rather than accuracy. One of the issues is clearly that pronounced sounds as shown via spectral analysis demonstrate that dividing a continuous utterance into well-delimited segments is an approximation. And there are all sorts of complicated transition patterns, and co-articulations and some sounds only make sense in a certain phonetic context. IPA, like any writing system, remains an approximation.
...
BeaP is correct, even with the IPA, you need to learn pronunciation based on the student's prior procedural knowledge of languages - from the issues with productive concerns to limitations in auditory perception - for example, a late learner of English from Mexico like my mother (who knew the IPA) will still have an issue with 'sheets' unless she actively trains - that work around pronunciation is dependent on her prior language experience, and it's an exercise that would be useless for French speakers.
Yep, I even had an example of this in my previous post:
garyb wrote:French /u/ and /y/, and the English /u/ which is somewhere between them and less open and rounded than either

I chose this example specifically because, before I learnt the distinction properly (as in "/u/ is back, /y/ is front like a rounded /i/", as opposed to my high school French teacher just pronouncing one and then the other), I was not able to produce the two sounds in ways that native French speakers could tell the difference, because my English /u/ sound was somewhere in the middle. I also was not able to tell the difference when listening: I could hear that they were different sounds when hearing minimal pair examples, but it wasn't clear which one it was if I heard a single word with one of them: is it "roue" or "rue"?

For other examples (dental consonants, light and dark L, aspirated plosives), there are annotations to the IPA symbols to differentiate them, but I wouldn't expect them to be used in a typical chart for a language.

IPA is very useful for comparing different sounds in one language, but less useful for comparing sounds in different languages.
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Cavesa
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby Cavesa » Sun May 22, 2022 2:06 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Fortunately, I am by far not the only foreigner and not the only doctor with a persisting foreign accent) But I am more than functional. :-)
My doctor here in the States is from Central America, and his English comes with a thick Spanish accent, even though he has been in the country for many years. But I don't care, because he is a very good doctor. Although in his 60s, he is brisk and energetic, and he inspires a lot of confidence in his skills.
As for you in Switzerland, there is now a smile back in your voice, and it's delightful to hear. :)


Thank you. I feel much happier now, no matter the obstacles and juggling all the complications at once. It will still be hard in many ways, but I am finally out of the trap that had been closing around me.

Yes, I see various such examples around me. And a mixed immigrant heavy environment is definitely good for me, full of great examples.

Suzie wrote:
MorkTheFiddle wrote:As for you in Switzerland, there is now a smile back in your voice, and it's delightful to hear. :)


I heard the smile, too :D , and am really happy for you, Cavesa! After all those road blocks and speed bumps in the past years, this outcome is well-deserved, and it sounds as if the move to Switzerland and the new job is giving you back some much-needed peace. All the best for the upcoming exciting (and stressful) weeks!

Will you still have to bring your German to C1 formally? Just asking because I always felt the Swiss French avoid German even more than the Wallonians avoid Dutch.


The first weeks have indeed been stressful, but in a sort of good way. I am very privileged, as I don't need to be too stressed about stuff that is solvable with a bit of money. I had saved up some, and I also have my family's support (which I only needed this time because my previous boss is one month late with my salary :-( which is really not cool at all). Also there is a lot to learn, a lot to do on the bureaucracy front (and that's hard, as my work schedule is rather crammed), etc. But I am moving forward.

I really need time to (re)learn tons of medicine stuff, but I should also look for an appartment, prepare wedding, etc. And learn languages. But right now, I've had my first real weekend of doing mostly nothing, and it felt great!

Yes, I need to bring my German to C1 formally, the hospitals require it (officially or not officially, and the skills are really needed no matter the certificate). I will need to chain approximately 5 contracts in order to get my specialty training, and I really cannot rely only on the options in Suisse Romande. So, C1 German and Italian exams are in order. I am already forgetting German due to lack of practice. But as I insist: it is not about the speed at which you learn, it is about what you do afterwards. Cramming is awesome, but only if you give yourself time to maintain.

BeaP wrote:Monolingual books often don't include pronunciation exercises, and I think they have good reasons for this. Pronunciation needs to be taught according to the student's native language. Which sounds do you know? What can you hear? What can you produce? It's not the same for you, me or a native English speaker. I've found some completely idiotic exercises in coursebooks which were probably difficult and useful for a Korean learner.

I don't know how effectively those sounds can be trained that don't exist in your language. Intonation, stress and rhythm on the other hand can surely be imitated. I think Hungarian people don't do it because they think it's clownish, something ridiculous. They're shy to try to imitate someone well. But it's getting better with the internet.


I don't think it needs to be taught according the native language. Or rather: the resource should give material for everyone, and the learner (or teacher) should adapt it. There should be much more material on this.

Not sure Hungarians are any exception. In my one brief visit, I heard both Hungarians speaking foreign languages well, and those speaking horribly. But you're certainly up to something, when you mention the shyness in immitation. It should be more normal and encouraged, and it should definitely be one of the top recommendations for self study. Group classes are the worst, and even a teacher already makes many people worried and shy. Individual practice is the way to go.
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Cavesa
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby Cavesa » Sun May 22, 2022 2:38 pm

zenmonkey wrote:The IPA is useful to describe differentiating sounds. It doesn't actually cover all productive sounds and is built around usability rather than accuracy. One of the issues is clearly that pronounced sounds as shown via spectral analysis demonstrate that dividing a continuous utterance into well-delimited segments is an approximation. And there are all sorts of complicated transition patterns, and co-articulations and some sounds only make sense in a certain phonetic context. IPA, like any writing system, remains an approximation.

Thank you! The whole post is a wonderful explanation. And you describe really well what I had always just felt, when facing IPA. For me, it has always been a bit of an extra step, no matter how useful it surely is for people with different goals for mine (which is just learning and using the languages)

BeaP is correct, even with the IPA, you need to learn pronunciation based on the student's prior procedural knowledge of languages - from the issues with productive concerns to limitations in auditory perception - for example, a late learner of English from Mexico like my mother (who knew the IPA) will still have an issue with 'sheets' unless she actively trains - that work around pronunciation is dependent on her prior language experience, and it's an exercise that would be useless for French speakers.


Yes, that's why I really wish more learning resources had many more pronunciation exercises, so that everyone can pick the ones relevant to them. It's not just about the native language. I have different challenges than other Czech natives, as I have different experience with other foreign languages (including their correct pronunciation, and also some long fossilised mistakes), and I also have a rather different Czech pronunciation than someone from a very different region.


For me, learning pronunciation is also a midterm process, it's part of learning to hear in order to also learn to produce speech. I'm definitely still struggling with final and medial ق which has often an IPA of /ɡ/ but somehow is different from گ /g/ and I don't hear it. The IPA isn't enough. It will come. Takes time.


For me, it is a process revisited at every stage, and continously addressed. Some things need to be learnt right away, to create good habits. Many needs to be improved midterm. And there is a lot to learn at the advanced stage, while nobody is willing/capable to help, and they'll just say "but you speak so well, what do you want to improve?".

Not sure IPA would help me at any of these stages. Perhaps at the first one, but I prefer to get used directly to the language as a beginner.

You know what is weird? Sometimes I feel like my Italian pronunciation is more correct and natural than my French one. Why? I believe the years of teachers and classes have damaged my French, and the decades of use have fossilised it. I am damn good (for most people the best non native they've heard), but I sometimes feel discouraged, as I have no clue how to get totally neutral-near-native-like, and feel as if the teachers and classes had robbed me of that opportunity.

zenmonkey wrote:I do think an adult can learn corrective differentiation. With my German, I still have a French accent (which made my daughters laugh). Years of work with just shadowing really helped a lot. I think people don't hear and therefore don't correct. And a strategy of overtraining mechanical correct repetition does something. Now is there new plasticity that is built up? Probably - other research in using the auditory channels to process new information suggests it's trainable, to a degree. And there are effective accent reduction processes. But I also think there is a process of diminishing returns and at some point getting to 'ok' (whatever that means) is where we end up stopping. I'll always have some 'French' tones in my German - I'm happy with that - as long as my girls are no longer laughing and people aren't scrunching up their faces when I speak.


Yes, definitely. And again, I think language learning should get inspired by music. Musical ear can be trained too, but to a different extent and with different amounts of effort. That's where the talent gets in the equation. But it can be trained to some extent, most people can get better than they are.

My German comes with a French accent, from what I've been told. My Italian with a Spanish one and vice versa. My English with a stupid probably Czech one :-D. But training has been helping with that. I've seen great progress in my Italian! Tons of "overtraining" matter a lot.

Yep, I am surely in the diminishing returns zone in most languages of mine. :-D My goal are people not interested in my origins at all, and not affected much by the (sociologically described) tendency to consider people with accent to be less capable, trustworthy and intelligent.
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Cavesa
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby Cavesa » Sun May 22, 2022 8:52 pm

Also to get back on track to log, from the very interesting discussion:

Super Challenge:

French listening: 7x40min Les sept vies de Léa
Original, interesting, well made, fun. I wholeheartedly recommend it. A teen in a sort of "what to do with my life" crisis travels in time, while she sleeps, and gets to experience lives of several other people, including her parents. The point is to save a life of a boy, whose bones she happened to find. I don't want to spoil it for anyone, as I really think this is worth seeing, and not a cliché.

Spanish reading: Guardias! Guardias! by Pratchett.
Yeah, not originally written in Spanish, so I need something else to get the % of original works I pledged myself to. But Pratchett is simply awesome! I haven't reread his books in several years! I have actually forgotten so much! It's wonderful!!!

Not countable things: I really like the Downton Abbey, which sort of surprises me. And a complaint:it's too addictive. :-D

And on the reading front: I've been reading Czech fantasy/scifi again in the last few months, if anyone would be interested in tips. Right now, I am reading Ostravská mysteria by Skřipský. The Mysteries of (or in) Ostrava. Before that, it was Noc a mlha (the night and the fog) by Bandžuch. Both books take place in the 1st republic and are the sort of "magic in the slightly alternative history" books, with strong detective story element. I really consider it great that the popular culture finally works more with our modern history. Another book: Misteri, by Rečková, is one of the best scifi ever. The world, broken and falling down into "lower levels of existence" can be saved with the help of genetically engineered people. Well written, a coherent world, original ideas, while there is a lot of respect for the rules of the genre. I really wish Czech authors would get translated more often. Many would have solid chances on the international market.
.............
Learning plans:

"relearning" and continuing German and Italian, while learning tons of medicine stuff in French.
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Cavesa
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby Cavesa » Sun May 22, 2022 9:41 pm

Hmm, looks like the only realistic date for an Italian exam is November, and it will be CELI. The earlier dates (that are not in like a week or two from now) are just low levels :-( I hoped I could get a summer exam. But nope.

Time to plan :-D
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Cavesa
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby Cavesa » Mon May 23, 2022 4:03 pm

Hmm, too many posts in a row, but there might be none or very few in the two weeks to come.

Time to rethink my language learning, as I knew I would. I no longer work half time. I have a full time job that requires also extra studying. Sadly, I don't think I've gotten as much as I could have from the previous situation.

The learning projects for near future:

1.Super Challenge continuation. Oh, and I need to registerin the bot and put there the already completed elements.

2.German: DaF kompakt completion: mostly the workbook. It is good review of stuff I may have forgotten in the last month, and the exercises are worth it. And of course the DaF kompakt Memrise course. Should be done in like two weeks.

3.Italian: Hmm, what to review first. I think I'll start with one of the coursebooks currently in my boxes. Yep, the number one selection criterion is the geographical location of the resource :-D

And time to update the progress bar gardens on page 1 of this log.
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Cavesa
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby Cavesa » Sun Jun 05, 2022 2:54 pm

So, I am finishing my first holiday at the new job. Yes, it is totally weird to have gotten one so early, it wasn't my choice. I would have prefered to wait a bit. But I used it to finish my Belgian adventure, move out (thanks to the help fo my family), move fully here. Now I need to find a normal appartment, it is really hard. The temporary solution is rather tiny and hard for my fiancé.

But a few words to the end of my Belgian episode of life: I learnt a lot in Belgium. It was frustrating, none of my plans went as I had wanted (some due to my fault, some due to open discrimination, some just because of the system and society being very far from logical, efficient, and welcoming). Disappointment, but some unexpected value. Lots of useful experience. Some good moments. A few new friends, that I'm already missing here. I have become a bit more resilient and resistant person, a bit better doctor, and I've learnt a lot about social issues, immigration, another face of multiculturalism (the one where Belgium totally fails at it due to their stupid and hypocritical system), but also about how well it can work sometimes.

I love it here, in the Switzerland, but my heart still sort of aches, I miss having lived in France and still miss some things about that. I still hold it against myself that I failed to get into the right residency there, my life would have been much simpler. But I have a future here and I'll feel much better as soon as I return to work.

Yes, I am excited about my job, just need more time to study for it, ideally every day.

Language plans: unchanged, not much progress, but it will go well in the end.
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Cavesa
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby Cavesa » Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:46 pm

So, I got to speak Spanish at work yesterday. But I am sooo rusty! But the more important thing was comprehension anyways (it usually is!), Spanish really helped. I should get back to it.

I am considering learning some basic Ukrainian. The main problem: I cannot find any resouces for healthcare workers. I hoped Hueber might have done a Ukrainian version of one of their very good bilingual phrasebooks for healthcare with 8 language options, but nope, no Ukrainian. Really, nothing at all anywhere.

You know, Assimil is nice, but I couldn't care less about majority of the content, I just need basic grammar and relevant vocabulary and sentence structures. I am not interested in your plans for the weekend or opinions on solar electricity or intergenerational issues, I'll probably never ask how to get to the train station in Kiev. I need to know when did the red spot appear, whether you had fever, oedema, whether you take medication or have allergies, or your vaccines are up to date. Then give you some orders relevant to the exams, explain that we're still waiting for the labs, you need to take this, and the insurance covers it, and the change of bandage is planned on friday at the polyclinic. This sort of stuff, and much more of it.

I don't really have much time for such a project anyways, as I keep reminding myself.
But it would be useful at work every day and real refugees (unlike purely economical migrants from for example Morocco) shouldn't ever be punished for lack of language skills. It is a bit weird. The BCMS speakers have no problem using their language and my Czech to close the communication loop, when their French or English is clearly insufficient for the task, we somehow mix the three languages together to get everything needed across. The Ukrainians don't. They simply seem not used to being understood (which is sort of sad in some ways), so they automatically insist even on extremely shitty English and the online translator (which is not made for medical situations and often understands total nonsense. But it is so hard to convince anyone that the tool is making the communication worse), and don't give me a chance to understand them. I can understand approximatively quite a lot of simple Ukrainian, but not when some of them always turn away to their family and speak very fast and quietly before turning back and replying to me in extremely shitty English again (the extremely limited vocabulary destroys the information, low comprehension gives me answer to a totally different question, etc). So, I might need to just learn Ukrainian, or to give up on this idea. You know, just like I cannot understand Albanians for example (but those are by far not that numerous, and they are usually not refugees). But it makes the work harder and there are at least one or two Ukrainians to be seen and treated every day.

Well, I have other tasks before me. So much to do, so much to learn, but so much sleep needed :-D

End of rant. The solution would actually be easy, I'd just need a time-turner, like Hermione. Then I could manage to do my work, all the work paperwork (I am so behind on that!), work related learning, several languages, appartement hunting, etc :-D :-D :-D
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby Aloyse » Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:35 pm

6 x
Future me already did it.


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