Carpe Coffeam

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Cavesa
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby Cavesa » Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:03 am

I've just completed unit 4 in the coursebook! Yay! A few notes so far:
-the content is more interesting than one would expect at the A1 level. Ok, it's easy to win me over with a doublepage on coffee :-D But still, it is. Just the glossary directly in the lesson might be rather hard for a normal real beginner.
-this passato prossimo lesson is much easier than the previous one, the highlight of which were the prepositions. I find this mostly easy. nevertheless, I learnt something totally new: the modal verbs change essere or avere based on the infinitive verb. wow, I never fully realized this!

Overall, I think a few of my long term opinions are being just strenghtened by this experience. Such a coursebook might be a bit confusing for a self teaching true beginner. It should be either accompanied or preceded by a bilingual book that really explains stuff even more step by step. But it is much more fun for people looking for authentic content. Even the audios are rather fast and therefore enjoyable. When I repeat after them, the speed is indeed a challenge :-D

Loving this. Just not sure how to handle two languages, a very demanding job... and also the wedding preparations :-D :-D :-D

P.S. to the 6WC and SC: 48 minutes of Westworld in Italian
P.S.2 6WC is really awaking my highly competitive inner child. Radioclare, fear me! I'm right behind you! :-D (But no idea how PM manages. A job, a family, and top of the list in the 6WC? He's got to be cheating with a Tardis or a Time Turner! :-D )

Edit:correction: Nope, PM is no longer on the top. AnyaPop is!!!! I TOLD YOU SO!!!
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby DaveAgain » Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:54 am

Cavesa wrote:Loving this. Just not sure how to handle two languages, a very demanding job... and also the wedding preparations :-D :-D :-D
Congratulations! :-)
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Cavesa
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby Cavesa » Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:03 pm

Thank you!
I still think congratulations should be after the wedding. The preparations are difficult :-D
......
I hoped to really move forward in Progetto today. And I did move. I put in like an hour. But now I cannot. They are doing technical upgrades. Yeah, nice, but I cannot use it now. No idea for how long. See, another huge advantage of the paper resources. Digital stuff is shiny and comfortable, but paper is independent and reliable.

Another note on Progetto: There are not that systematic grammar explanations and overviews in the lessons, just some relevant notes, tables already in exercises etc. The systematic and proper ones are all at the end of the book, together. I think it is a terrible idea. Not only do you need to leaf back and forth, remember where you were, etc. But I am damn sure most learners will find the few dozen pages presenting one grammar point after another pretty discouraging and off putting. Larger chunks than too tiny shatters, good (hey, unit 5 teaches future semplice AND future composto, I love that! and I think it is well taught that even real beginners won't struggle too much but instead will profit). Good explanations and tables, awesome. But not at the end of the book. Not hidden there, as if it didn't matter. And not in such a discouraging cluster.

6WC update: AmandaWrites2 is above me now. I need to change that again :-D But let me tell you: I really like her log. I like her consistency. And based on the 6wc tags, she is putting in 5 self study hours on every tutoring hour. That's basically the ideal! And she is so consistent! I have already said that. But it is worth repeating. No doubts she'll totally conquer Spanish!!!
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Cavesa
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby Cavesa » Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:33 am

Alright, this is gonna be harsh, two seriously learnt languages at once, and with a job and other studying for the job etc. But I still need this. I know the concensus is "1 at a time", the recent poll shows it. Nevertheless, I am exactly in the situation I depicted there in my defence of 2 at once. If I don't do this, I will miss out on opportunities.
1.I am applying to jobs and need to widen my options, in order to get what I need for my career progress.
2.I would love to have children in the next few years. That means much less free time, especially no time for learning skills above the bare survival of the new situation :-D. What I don't achieve now, I may never achieve. Or at least not in the first 5 years of the kid's (or kids') life.
3.I am sad to see my languages get forgotten. I had allowed that to happen several times. For now, I simply need to keep letting it happen to my Spanish, no matter how hard I had worked to get to my previous B2/C1 level. But getting German and Italian to full C1 will make their maintanence so much easier!

And, I already did stuff like this in the past.
..............
News on the Italian front: i-d-e-e.it is still out of order for maintenance. I wouldn't be so annoyed by this normal thing, if only they put there the estimate end time.

Btw the Edilingua publisher has mentioned a few news. It looks like they might be giving the interactive book to every paper book, at least for their main coursebook series (Progetto, Via del Corso), and for same price. If it is true, I will definitely get the next volume in paper+interactive, exactly for moments like this. It sucks to be held back like this. I have other sources, but I was really enjoying this and progressing so well. AAAAND: They've made a Progetto 4 for C2!!! Awesome! Of course it cannot replace tons of input etc, not even going into that discussion again. But it could be really helpful, and it also means they expect people to really get to C1 through books 1-3.

I am picking my next resources, after I finish Progetto 1 and Perfetto 1. What sucks: Progetto 3 hasn't been published in spite of promises (had been planned for 2021), there is only Progetto 2. The series is good but not exceptionally great, I had picked it also for the continuity up to the C levels. Nope, not happening. But Ornimi seems to have published a very good CELI 4 preparation book, even with sample text answers, so I will be getting that. Another good looking series of grammar, 202 esercizi, which goes up to C2, is out of print. I only got a pdf somewhere, I would have loved to buy the paper copy.

I also have other resources, but I don't want to spread myself too thin:
The plan before CELI C1: Progetto 2 and 3 (hopefully the website will be up soon), Perfetto 1 and 2, GrammaticAvanzata, CELI 4 (ornimi)

If time allows, I'll be adding some of these: Una grammatica italiana per tutti, the 2/3 left of 1, and the whole 2 (there is a lot to learn and practice at the Italian B levels), 202 esercizi C1-C2. Italština (it goes up to C1 and some the exercise types are very good), Učebnice současné Italštiny 2 (again, for the translation exercises and explanations at the higher levels. It covers B2-C1). Perhaps finishing Speakly, unless it keeps annoying me with technical problems of the website. And perhaps vocab from the Nathan vocab book.

Oh no, I caught some sort of a completionist bug from PM's log! :-D :-D :-D (in which case, I'd be on the best way to succeed, of course)
..........................
German: "huge" news, description of my new course, etc. In the next post. Need to study some Italian, before going to work :-)
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Aug 18, 2022 10:18 am

Cavesa wrote: no idea how PM manages. A job, a family, and top of the list in the 6WC? He's got to be cheating with a Tardis or a Time Turner! :-D )


Add in feeding lambs by bottle lately too (while listening to Norwegian audio)!! I'm such an underdog, right :lol:

Cavesa wrote:
Edit:correction: Nope, PM is no longer on the top. AnyaPop is!!!! I TOLD YOU SO!!!


Dammit!!! :evil: :roll:

That inner competitive child might re-awaken! Look-out y'all! 'Y'all' is French, right? Hey PM, you're slipping, too much Norwegian!

It's great to see you enjoying the Italian progress with your course book of choice, Cavesa! Keep up the good work!
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby philomath » Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:40 am

Cavesa wrote:6WC update: AmandaWrites2 is above me now. I need to change that again :-D But let me tell you: I really like her log. I like her consistency. And based on the 6wc tags, she is putting in 5 self study hours on every tutoring hour. That's basically the ideal! And she is so consistent! I have already said that. But it is worth repeating. No doubts she'll totally conquer Spanish!!!

Thank you! :D I had no idea there was an ideal ratio of self study hours to tutoring hours; that would be interesting to experiment with.
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Cavesa
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby Cavesa » Fri Aug 19, 2022 12:25 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:
Cavesa wrote:
Edit:correction: Nope, PM is no longer on the top. AnyaPop is!!!! I TOLD YOU SO!!!


Dammit!!! :evil: :roll:

That inner competitive child might re-awaken! Look-out y'all! 'Y'all' is French, right? Hey PM, you're slipping, too much Norwegian!

It's great to see you enjoying the Italian progress with your course book of choice, Cavesa! Keep up the good work!


AnyaPop is unbeatable! (Now I half expect you to prove me wrong). She is wonderful, and in every 6wc!

I am such a competitive kid in my heart too. Not even ashamed. :-D I cannot aspire to the medal positions, but I think competing against Amanda may soon get me to Radioclare's level, or perhaps even higher!!!

Italian is wonderful, so enjoyable at all times! It is a good fit for me. And the platform for the digital coursebook is functioning again! But I need to go to work. Fortunately, just a short day today, 8 official hours only. Plus overtime, I didn't finish my paperwork yesterday at all :-D

But I still managed put in almost 40 minutes today, with the Perfetto workbook and I am now in the second half of it.

philomath wrote:
Cavesa wrote:6WC update: AmandaWrites2 is above me now. I need to change that again :-D But let me tell you: I really like her log. I like her consistency. And based on the 6wc tags, she is putting in 5 self study hours on every tutoring hour. That's basically the ideal! And she is so consistent! I have already said that. But it is worth repeating. No doubts she'll totally conquer Spanish!!!

Thank you! :D I had no idea there was an ideal ratio of self study hours to tutoring hours; that would be interesting to experiment with.


Well, it is not an official one, but I've observed it is a good thing. Where does the idea of 5:1 come from. I used to have a best friend and she did competition dancing. And she told me that the ideal ratio was 5 hours of unguided training for every (expensive) hour of guided lesson. The idea stuck with me, even though I haven't mostly been able to apply it in this way.
.............

Btw my spoken English is trash these days. But on my defense: I've been consistently seeing the same thing happen. I speak much better with natives than with non natives. With non natives, it is usually a Bad English conversation. It serves, but speak at their level. And I am ashamed of myself a bit. With natives, I tend to speak quite normally, even though it is still well under my writing level. At work, I must say my Italian is getting stronger than my English, as I use it as much or more.

Perhaps I should watch some House MD, to refresh stuff again :-D
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:28 pm

Cavesa wrote:Well, it is not an official one, but I've observed it is a good thing. Where does the idea of 5:1 come from. I used to have a best friend and she did competition dancing. And she told me that the ideal ratio was 5 hours of unguided training for every (expensive) hour of guided lesson. The idea stuck with me, even though I haven't mostly been able to apply it in this way.


It makes a lot of sense. Just imagine you're doing your class once per week. Of course you have to work on your skills for the remaining days. Consider it homework. Over the years, I've seen people ignore this totally in some of my hobbies. :roll:
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Cavesa
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby Cavesa » Mon Aug 22, 2022 1:03 pm

YAY PROGRESS!!!

Ok, I hoped to be much further along, this far in the 6wc. But nevertheless:

1.I got over the 20h, now trying to keep up with the next group. The competition with Amanda has been very healthy for me :-) But Radioclare is somewhere far away in the distance now! Nevermind, Lingua2016 is the next one! :-D And I have no doubts Amanda will keep getting ahead of me!

2.I have finally completed Perfetto 1. It was a bit of a battle by the end, but I wanted a bit fewer books on my desk. A review follows.

3.I am in the second half of Progetto 1 now, at least in the coursebook (the workbook takes time and I was now wokring on finishing Perfetto)
...................
So, the workbook Perfetto 1.
3 stars out of 5

-it is a workbook, it doesn't have the usual explanations and tables. Which is totally ok, if you have those elsewhere. It is a good supplement to any A1/A2 coursebook. Nevertheless, it shows a bit less grammar than my Progetto book. I think the Progetto 2 is likely to be better
-you can do the lessons in any order you like, even though this book makes it a bit better to go in a clear order. Which is an advantage for some learners
-the exercises are overall good. Many are the connect parts, order stuff, fill the gaps. But if you feel like that is not enough of a challenge, you can always add a new layer. And you often should. Say it out loud, copy it by hand, put it to srs, do a few substitutions in the same sentence, etc.
-the content is overall good, most examples are enjoyable and up to date (no telegram sending, but chats and emails mentioned with the proper preposisitions and stuff. Some good jokes, like an example text with mafia etc). But I hated the too many examples with women shopping. It was "just" several times, but always the same "women love shopping, that's the only interesting thing to mention about their free time, and the men are annoyed by it" theme.
-the key to exercises is sloppy. There are sometimes mistakes like a different word used than in the exercise, a few times more answers could be correct, once or twice the sentence numbers don't fit. I even found an exercise, in which the key clearly didn't match the exercise at all. It looks like a sloppy editing work. Someone made the key and didn't bother to check whether the final version of the book and the final version of the key matches.
-The amount of content is ok, but not awesome. If you are used to the quality and intensity of Gramatica de Uso or Grammaire Progressive, you will find the pages rather diluted.

So, my recommendation:
-Yes for someone like me, reviewing Italian, wanting a paper grammar work book for extra practice.
-Yes, with the normal realistic expectations and there are also fewer alternatives than in Spanish or French
-No, if you are a true beginner and therefore it really matters, whether a book confuses you by sloppiness
-yes/no: one of my reasons to buy it was continuity until C1. But unfortunately, the 3rd book has been significatnly delayed.

I will probably get Perfetto 2, as the series is not bad, the sample I saw looked better than Perfetto 1. And one other series I wanted instead seems to be out of print. And I like paper grammar workbooks, independent from my internet connection and the company's maintanance plans.

It is worse than Una grammatica italiana per tutti imho (too bad that one doesn't have a 3rd volume), but can be used as a supplement to it. But it is much better than some other Italian workbooks I've seen.
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Cavesa
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Re: Carpe Coffeam

Postby Cavesa » Sun Aug 28, 2022 12:25 pm

Life is interfering with languages again. Nevertheless, I slowly continue with Italian, and I have started the German course.

To describe the first real impressions of the expensive language school:

THE POSITIVES:
-it forces me to study somewhat regularly (hey, I got this done in a week with 4 night shifts! yay me!). An advantage compared to self study, even though I don't need in languages I genuinely like.

-the approach:individual study first, practice later. So no need to waste time on explanations or exercises already in a coursebook or software. An excellent element, which I think should be the standard instead of being the exception.

-the teachers are forced to stick to the structure, no chaos. That's the main advantage over most tutors and teachers (including in schools). They are often incapable of sticking to a structure, they want to be creative at all costs. Nope. This system works, because everyone knows they are just doing a piece of a bigger puzzle, and the pieces need to fit together.

-my first in person conversation class was mostly a very positive experience. I really liked this teacher (but there are several), It happened to be one on one!!! (many times, it will be in 2 or 3 people). Now, I am not sure how it will go in other than 1 on 1 setting. But if all my classes happen to be 1 on 1 in the future, it will make the price tag much more palatable.

-I can already see how to adapt that even better to my needs, and I've already applied the strategies. Really, no need to control grammar exercises, just questions (if needed), and I need to constantly push myself more and more, as the teacher doesn't know my maximum (nobody will, because they switch the student-teacher combinations), but it is possible to communicate I want to be corrected as much as possible, and to make it work. This teacher was more on the side of correcting, which is good. But she spoke at least as much as I did, which is a sort of a problem. I need to push myself harder, so that this isn't needed in the future, and so that it is obvious from the first moments.

-the platform Speexx is overall really good, even though not really revolutionary. The main part is something like the platform idee.it I use for my Italian coursebook. It is not buggy. The content is good. Overall, I like it. And these days, I really like digital tools of quality. I think Speex would be wonderful for self-teaching learners, it just seems to be not that easily accessible for individuals, it is a company primarily for enterprises or language schools. Oh, and I'd recommend using it more than it is supposed to be. When I asked some questions, the introductory lesson presenter sometimes didn't know (she claimed there were no vocabulary flashcares, just a list you can save. Nope, there are flashcards, just no srs), or sometimes just were the too easy going type. I do not think that the set of exercises is sufficient to be just done, I think it is well worth it to write more, to rewrite (or do scriptorium) at least a part, to repeat after video... It all looks obvious, but neither the platform nor the introductory teacher incites the learner to do so.

-The coursebook used is Erkundungen B2, which is an excellent one. But it is not used systematically from 0 to the finish, which is a bit of a challenge. But I love how I am given a list of exercises for each topic,to not get lost, but I need much more. And with the book in my hand, I can easily just do more exercises and look up more explanations. That's a huge advantage over the other very common approach, which is giving copies only. A chaos of stupid copies that people tend to lose, and that doesn't easily show them where to do more, it doesn't allow to see the whole context. Publishers make a coursebook/workbook, where a lesson has some system, some context of progressing from explanations through several types of exercise, and the teachers usually destroy that huge tool by just "creatively" mixing copies from books. Oh, we have a few extra copies too, but they are a tiny minority, and it was easy to figure out the source, to get the context (and lösung, to not waste class time)

-WRITING!!! There is a writing assignment for every lesson (I didn't have time for the first one, but I will complete it and all the previous ones (from the lessons I tested out of) and can get feedback to them at any time. I love that. That's a huge advantage.

THE NEGATIVES
-the platform Speexx actually has much fewer content than I had anticipated. A standard student (I am a bit "bellow my level" or rather relearning and consilidating B2) is supposed to do 4 hours of activities there (+1 or two in workbook and the few copies on top of the workbook) in between lessons. For me, it was half. Perhaps less. Next time, I will do also the "extra grammar" and also extra workbooks of my own. Somehow, I struggle to think that even the "normal" first time learner of the level would need 4 hours to do the required stuff. Perhaps if they really went beyond how the platform is to be used.

-There is a pronunciation software. It is a wonderful idea. But it has the usual problems. It is extremely inferior to human based alternative:speechling. But it is overall ok, and I think the main advantage is at least making people speak out loud, which is a great thing. Nevertheless, we were all told how we needed good equipment and calm environment for it to work the best. Nope, that's not the main thing that matters. What I found to matter the most? The pitch or tone. When I said the same sentence, with as exactly same pronunciation possible, twice but once with a high pitch and once in a low one, guess what?! The low one was graded near perfect, the high one as if nothing was really correct. It is not really surprising. We all know techonology is created with male customers on mind. And that voice controlled stuff is made for lower voices,as a part of this patriarchal attitude, that we even have reasearch on. It is even dangerous, when the voice control is supposed to for example call an ambulance. Speexx is just another example, fortunately without any danger. But if you happen to be woman or a guy with a higher voice, keep on mind that your issue with pronunciation software might be just this.

-myself. I need to push myself harder. I have a hard time trusting just the system, I can clearly see my gaps and imperfections.
.......................

I would like to clear up some misunderstanding from another thread.

I have never believed or claimed, that native anglophones had perfect lives without trouble or everything. Nope (and I think not trying to move in any anglophone country is a rather strong confirmation in my case.). But it is simply the truth, that the anglophones are the most privileged people on earth, when it comes to languages. As is the nature of any privilege, many haven't chosen in, many dislike the negative consequences (when they are the exceptions and want to practice languages), some find it wrong, and so on. But they all have it. Being an anglophone =having the privilege of a choice whether you want to learn a language or not, and facing no bad consequences for not doing it.

The rest of the world is paying lots of money to learn English (and/or other languages), let alone the time and efforts. It is a totally different thing, whether an anglophone learns German, or whether a native Italian or Czech or Turskish speaker learns German. The anglophones can choose much more freely in any language related life situation. And if they choose not to, it mostly doesn't affect them. Not even in the most extreme example: the expats. The world has been spoiling them. Whether or not they had personally asked for it.

That's why I find it so infuriating, when a native anglophone tells people very ignorant stuff like "A2 is useless" or "oh, you can just switch to English" and even present English as the morally superior choice (like "who are you to force people to use their language with you") or a lot of other similar stuff. It is pure privilege talking combined with a huge lack of any empathy or common sense(it's just as if I started lecturing women of colour on their experiences or overgeneralising my white woman's experience. Or even telling them how they were handling the situations wrong, without realising the "same" situation is completely different for them).

I just wanted to clear this up. Especially as some people cannot see the obvious and huge difference between "hatred towards anglophones" and "pointing out their privilege and the FACT that their experience with usefulness of language learning is a minority one, based on privilege".

I apologize, if anyone ever found reason to confuse the two in my posts. But I insist that it is 100% truth that being an anglophone=having a privilege, just like being a white is a privilege, being a cis male is a privilege, and being fully abled is a privilege. And I see no hatred in stating this truth and pointing out how inappropriate some of the comments of the privileged anglophones are.

What I really appreciate: many anglophones in language learning communities realize this. It's usually one of things that has even lead them to languages. By learning and using other languages, by enjoying them, by taking interest, they are creating a bit better culture and a bit better world every day. That's why I am even more shocked by the displays of the opposite attitude.
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