I speak no French and am moving to a French-speaking region in a month

[LanguageLearner0007]

Got it, my argument is I don't think it's possible in 6 months to reach that comfortable level. And it is mainly because the native speakers DO NOT AT ALL speak in a clear, gramatically transparent way.

"Je ne sais" is pronounced as "sschwi pa" for example, and things like this.

For practical reasons, I can really recommend these devices called "pocket translators", they are really really good. Also, the website deepl.com is decent (much better than Google Translate).

Not trying to discourage you but this thing you want to do is hard, it takes time.

It would be actually very interesting if you make a list of typical real life conversations that you NEED to do in French. This would be super useful for others.

[Cavesa]

(3) You need a high level of grammar to even have a simple conversation. This might be obvious, but (for comparison) when I learned Spanish I had years of classes and a solid grammatical foundation before I "went into the wild" and spoke to natives.

It really hammers home that advanced vs simple grammar is kind of a made up thing. Languages have grammar, period. Natives don't care if the imperfect is taught later in your course than the simple future, because in their head they just know whatever you said was wrong.

My takeaway here is sprinting through my courses earlier, rather than spreading them out over time, will be more effective, as I'll at least have been exposed to all the grammar forms.

If I didn't know Spanish grammar, I would probably have been extremely confused from my conversations with natives right now.

I think there is a very common misconception running around. It starts with seemingly innocent questions like "what grammar do I need for A2?". It is the idea, that as you progress through the levels, you unlock new grammar features, that were not needed before, and you put aside the old topics. However, the biggest part of the grammar is reexplored at every level. It is more like learning it in layers, not about totally separate chunks of grammar, neatly stuffed in boxes that you open and close. People tend to vastly underestimate the amount of features that you need to learn the basic use of at the low levels. Then they sort of accept this at the intermediate levels. Then they again underestimate the importance of learning grammar at the high levels, because there are simply few totally new features to visit, they don't realize there is a new layer to the old ones.

You are absolutely right about the "whether the imperfect is learnt later in your course" thing. That's why I find it totally crazy that some people are judging a coursebook on whether it sorts "the most important stuff first", they obsess about what is presented in an earlier lesson, and what in a later one. As if they planned to stop by lesson 5 anyways. Nope, if you want to learn the language to a certain level, you need to learn the whole package required. You are not really supposed to be much more useful after unit 3 than after unit 2. You are usually pretty useless until you'll have learnt the whole introductory coursebook.

Oh la la... I feel like I, for once, can provide some useful advice.

1. You will be there for 6 months. This is not remotely enough to learn French, not even close. This will be a nice "international experience" for you but to expect that you can converse/socialize normally after 6 months is wildly unrealistic, unless you're really special.

No offence meant, but this is not useful advice. It depends on what is "socialize normally". But if something like B1 would satisfy OP (as it already is quite normal communication in many situations), that's definitely possible in a few months, with time left to enjoy that and practice.

2. In this amount of time, you cannot do any structural learning, I would focus on getting a private tutor on Italki (quite cheap) and ask them to walk you through the basics in French. Do not read books, interact with a person who is willing to interact with you in French.

Wrong. Structured learning is actually the fastest way to progress at the low levels. A tutor may be good, but just as a supplement to a good coursebook, to progress exactly in a structured way. Random lessons, where you have no clue about progress (and where most teachers and tutors really struggle progressing, as they tend to be rather chaotic and running in circles), that's not the efficient way to go about it. Also, no amount of practice speaking lessons will help, if you simply don't learn your basic grammar and vocab, and that needs to be done primarily on one's own, if you don't want to waste lots of time and money.

I'd argue this is unnecessary. Due to the presence of international organizations, you'd survive, and possible thrive with English alone. It's not like France or French-speaking Switzerland, much easier.

It depends on what do you want. While I'd agree that it is the best to get to at least B1 or B2 before going for half a year abroad, I don't think the usual plan should be to just stick to English and destroy any bit of authentic normal life. Those international organizations are not a normal part of the society. Yes, you will get your basic services in English too, but not normal human ties. Yes, you can totally survive just with English, but how could you thrive, unless you just want to live in an anglophone bubble? And if you want to live in such a bubble, why do you even bother travelling?

2) By the end - can converse and socialize normally.

I can honestly say this is impossible in such a short timeframe. If you do this, you have an extraordinary ability with languages.

I'd focus on a more realistic goal, i.e. knowing some common phrases and basic sentence constructions.

The truth is somewhere in between. C1 (the totally normal socialization) is indeed impossible within the time frame. But the A1 or A0, which you describe, is an extremely low goal. No person without a neurological deficit should be discouraged in such a way imho. A2-B2 are all totally within the reach, if OP has the time and is willing to spend it well. These levels are already "normal" functioning in various range of situations and to a various extent (which is also affected by the kind of personality they are, and the people they are surrounded by).

3) Prioritize colloquial speech over literary/formal language

Talk to someone who has the patience for your low level of French. This would be either a tutor or a friend.

Contrary to popular belief, the difference between colloquial and standard language is not that huge. And the literary/formal language is not really that present even in coursebooks, so it is a bit weird to tell a beginner to not prioritize something that they don't even encounter much.

"Colloquial speech" is actually not that different, unless you go to a rather specific population (adolescents talking among themselves, people with extremely low education, or rather isolated older people in villages that are very different from Brussels). The normal "colloquial speech" of the general population is not different enough to justify such an advice. The primary problem of most beginners that I hear complaining about it is not that they struggle with Colloquial French. They simply struggle with French, including the totally basic stuff presented in any basic coursebook.

Let us know how it goes and I'm also happy to respond to any questions, if needed.

I agree with the first part, but out of curiosity: what kind of experience are you basing your advice on? I don't mean to offend, and I appreciate good will like everyone, but some I am not sure your advice in this thread is exactly helpful and based on relevant experience.

[LanguageLearner0007]

France Éducation international (former CIEP) estimates that it requires 350-400 hours of cumulative learning to reach B1.

Let's take the lower estimate of 350 hours and divide it by 26 weeks, this comes to about 13.5 hours of learning per week, every week.

Most people cannot handle this amount while simultaneously in full-time work. If you're not working, sure, it's possible but the key here is that the OP is working full-time and starting from zero French.

something like B1 would satisfy OP (as it already is quite normal communication in many situations), that's definitely possible in a few months, with time left to enjoy that and practice.

This is quite an extraordinary claim, I honestly haven't seen a person reaching B1 "in a few months". This will require the perfomance and dedication of an athlete, to say the least.


France Éducation international is a pretty good authority on the subject, I think ultimately it boils down to the number of hours you can put in every day. With full-time work, this will be limited.

[Cavesa]

France Éducation international (former CIEP) estimates that it requires 350-400 hours of cumulative learning to reach B1.

Let's take the lower estimate of 350 hours and divide it by 26 weeks, this comes to about 13.5 hours of learning per week, every week.

Most people cannot handle this amount while simultaneously in full-time work. If you're not working, sure, it's possible but the key here is that the OP is working full-time and starting from zero French.

something like B1 would satisfy OP (as it already is quite normal communication in many situations), that's definitely possible in a few months, with time left to enjoy that and practice.

This is quite an extraordinary claim, I honestly haven't seen a person reaching B1 "in a few months". This will require the perfomance and dedication of an athlete, to say the least.


France Éducation international is a pretty good authority on the subject, I think ultimately it boils down to the number of hours you can put in every day. With full-time work, this will be limited.

As I've done something like this a few times (most recently from weak and rusty A1 to certified B2 in German within 5 months, and that's harder for me than the romance languages. From rusty A1 to B1/B2 Spanish in six weeks, that was another such project years ago. And something similar with Italian, from 0 to active A2/B1 and passive C1 in two months.) I see a few points, where this could be corrected:

1.FEI counts mainly with class hours, doesn't it? That's one of the issues. Classes are extremely diluted in terms of efficiency.

2.13.5 hours, that is possible with a normal full time work, what is the work week we are talking about? Not too probable with my current 50-60 hours week at a job requiring also a lot of extra studying, but definitely possible with the usual 38-45 hour week, especially if learning French is supposed to be one of the priorities of the stay! In that case, a lot of the normal activities get easily put aside or merged with the learning hours

3.a more relevant guide is https://autolingual.com/study-time-calculator which is based on FSI and several other aspects. It is approximate, but it takes into account the parametres more relevant to independent learners. So, while FEI (in all its academic importance etc) counts with a passive person with an average motivation sitting in a class, this counts with an active learner. At 3 hours a day (an inexperienced but highly motivated learner), this calculator shows 0 to B1 in 5 months. 3 hours a day is not that much, if language learning is your free time priority and with a normal job.

[LanguageLearner0007]

France Éducation international (former CIEP) estimates that it requires 350-400 hours of cumulative learning to reach B1.

Let's take the lower estimate of 350 hours and divide it by 26 weeks, this comes to about 13.5 hours of learning per week, every week.

Most people cannot handle this amount while simultaneously in full-time work. If you're not working, sure, it's possible but the key here is that the OP is working full-time and starting from zero French.

something like B1 would satisfy OP (as it already is quite normal communication in many situations), that's definitely possible in a few months, with time left to enjoy that and practice.

This is quite an extraordinary claim, I honestly haven't seen a person reaching B1 "in a few months". This will require the perfomance and dedication of an athlete, to say the least.


France Éducation international is a pretty good authority on the subject, I think ultimately it boils down to the number of hours you can put in every day. With full-time work, this will be limited.

As I've done something like this a few times (most recently from weak and rusty A1 to certified B2 in German within 5 months, and that's harder for me than the romance languages. From rusty A1 to B1/B2 Spanish in six weeks, that was another such project years ago. And something similar with Italian, from 0 to active A2/B1 and passive C1 in two months.) I see a few points, where this could be corrected:

1.FEI counts mainly with class hours, doesn't it? That's one of the issues. Classes are extremely diluted in terms of efficiency.

2.13.5 hours, that is possible with a normal full time work, what is the work week we are talking about? Not too probable with my current 50-60 hours week at a job requiring also a lot of extra studying, but definitely possible with the usual 38-45 hour week, especially if learning French is supposed to be one of the priorities of the stay! In that case, a lot of the normal activities get easily put aside or merged with the learning hours

3.a more relevant guide is https://autolingual.com/study-time-calculator which is based on FSI and several other aspects. It is approximate, but it takes into account the parametres more relevant to independent learners. So, while FEI (in all its academic importance etc) counts with a passive person with an average motivation sitting in a class, this counts with an active learner. At 3 hours a day (an inexperienced but highly motivated learner), this calculator shows 0 to B1 in 5 months. 3 hours a day is not that much, if language learning is your free time priority and with a normal job.

I can only say that you have an extraordinary ability for languages. If the OP has the same ability, sure.

In my case, I am learning French, on and off, for 2.5 years, although with long gaps of inactivity.

While I clearly have below-average ability for languages, I definitely didn't reach solid B1 yet. I can probably pass an odd B1 test, with preparation, but I wouldn't consider myself being at B1 level.

For half a year, I attended a university (2 * 1.5 h sessions per week).

Starting the day at 9:00, finishing at 19:00, going to the uni at 20:00, finishing at 21:30.

Add the commute and dinner time and you see that almost my entire time awake was dedicated to work and learning French. And this would still only give me 3 hours per week of guided learning time. It was too tiring, I had to stop.


So, I guess I can say that the advice is based on personal experience of trying (and failing) to learn the language quickly by arrogantly assuming that I can force through an accelerated schedule, as many people told me that it's possible. The reality is different, it's a high bar with no shortcuts and you have to put in a lot of time, really a lot.


Having said that, it well could be that the OP is a natural for languages, I guess we will see in 6 months!

[Cavesa]

I can only say that you have an extraordinary ability for languages. If the OP has the same ability, sure.

In my case, I am learning French, on and off, for 2.5 years, although with long gaps of inactivity.

While I clearly have below-average ability for languages, I definitely didn't reach solid B1 yet. I can probably pass an odd B1 test, with preparation, but I wouldn't consider myself being at B1 level.

There is most probably nothing wrong with your ability, it looks like the problem are the long gaps, and perhaps not too high intensity even in between the gaps. I was failing to progress my German for 9 years. Then it suddenly changed. The same person, the same intellectual ability, but different motivation, different amount of time put in per week, and different approach with efficiency as the priority, not attempts on fun. And no teachers, that's an important part of efficient success usually

For half a year, I attended a university (2 * 1.5 h sessions per week).

Starting the day at 9:00, finishing at 19:00, going to the uni at 20:00, finishing at 21:30.

Add the commute and dinner time and you see that almost my entire time awake was dedicated to work and learning French. And this would still only give me 3 hours per week of guided learning time. It was too tiring, I had to stop.

Well, the group classes at such a pace don't even count much, unless they are accompanied by lots of self study (which works with or without the group class).

I am not saying this is possible for everybody in every situation, a too heavy schedule is the most common obstacle. However, OP is going abroad for a job and learning French would seem to be a logical priority, which it was not during your studies.

"Guided learning time" doesn't really matter, teachers are not the deciding factor, self teaching is almost always much more efficient. Many people would learn much better, if they just stopped limiting their learning by relying on teachers, following their advice too much, setting up a lot of time to go to class, commute there and back, etc. Many people are also putting it a lot of time, but wasting it. They waste time on conversation practice lessons long before they actually know enough to converse and profit, they waste time on toys like Duolingo (yeah, you can learn a bit from it, but a dozen times slower than from a basic coursebook and more superficially). Really, it is about using the time you have as well as you can.

I am not shaming people with too much work. But as I was learning langauges successfully while in medschool, I simply don't think the limit is where most people believe it to be. I understand as I totally see myself unable to learn languages properly right now, while I am starting a new job, spending 60 hours a week there, with a rather demanding schedule, and in need to learn tons of new stuff in the free time. But with a standard job? And in the exceptional situation of also moving abroad (=conveniently temporarily cutting off some ties and obligations outside of work+language learning as a supposed free time priorty), I don't think language learning is that much of a problem.

So, I guess I can say that the advice is based on personal experience of trying (and failing) to learn the language quickly by arrogantly assuming that I can force through an accelerated schedule, as many people told me that it's possible. The reality is different, it's a high bar with no shortcuts and you have to put in a lot of time, really a lot.

Having said that, it well could be that the OP is a natural for languages, I guess we will see in 6 months!

It is a high bar, but the problem is not being or not being "a natural". While there may be no real short cuts (in the sense of "do this and you'll be B1 in 30 hours"), just avoiding some of the inefficient prolongation can prove to be enough of a "shortcut"(such as not wasting time on group classes, toy apps, stupid teachers, etc). Putting in a lot of time every day is the way to go. With good resources and methods.

If you don't need to hurry, then there is no point in forcing yourself to an incomfortable accelerated schedule. The accelerated schedule may also be impossible with too much of other workload, and if it is not a priority. But that's all very different from such an accelerated schedule being impossible in general.

[LanguageLearner0007]

I can only say that you have an extraordinary ability for languages. If the OP has the same ability, sure.

In my case, I am learning French, on and off, for 2.5 years, although with long gaps of inactivity.

While I clearly have below-average ability for languages, I definitely didn't reach solid B1 yet. I can probably pass an odd B1 test, with preparation, but I wouldn't consider myself being at B1 level.

There is most probably nothing wrong with your ability, it looks like the problem are the long gaps, and perhaps not too high intensity even in between the gaps. I was failing to progress my German for 9 years. Then it suddenly changed. The same person, the same intellectual ability, but different motivation, different amount of time put in per week, and different approach with efficiency as the priority, not attempts on fun. And no teachers, that's an important part of efficient success usually

For half a year, I attended a university (2 * 1.5 h sessions per week).

Starting the day at 9:00, finishing at 19:00, going to the uni at 20:00, finishing at 21:30.

Add the commute and dinner time and you see that almost my entire time awake was dedicated to work and learning French. And this would still only give me 3 hours per week of guided learning time. It was too tiring, I had to stop.

Well, the group classes at such a pace don't even count much, unless they are accompanied by lots of self study (which works with or without the group class).

I am not saying this is possible for everybody in every situation, a too heavy schedule is the most common obstacle. However, OP is going abroad for a job and learning French would seem to be a logical priority, which it was not during your studies.

"Guided learning time" doesn't really matter, teachers are not the deciding factor, self teaching is almost always much more efficient. Many people would learn much better, if they just stopped limiting their learning by relying on teachers, following their advice too much, setting up a lot of time to go to class, commute there and back, etc. Many people are also putting it a lot of time, but wasting it. They waste time on conversation practice lessons long before they actually know enough to converse and profit, they waste time on toys like Duolingo (yeah, you can learn a bit from it, but a dozen times slower than from a basic coursebook and more superficially). Really, it is about using the time you have as well as you can.

I am not shaming people with too much work. But as I was learning langauges successfully while in medschool, I simply don't think the limit is where most people believe it to be. I understand as I totally see myself unable to learn languages properly right now, while I am starting a new job, spending 60 hours a week there, with a rather demanding schedule, and in need to learn tons of new stuff in the free time. But with a standard job? And in the exceptional situation of also moving abroad (=conveniently temporarily cutting off some ties and obligations outside of work+language learning as a supposed free time priorty), I don't think language learning is that much of a problem.

So, I guess I can say that the advice is based on personal experience of trying (and failing) to learn the language quickly by arrogantly assuming that I can force through an accelerated schedule, as many people told me that it's possible. The reality is different, it's a high bar with no shortcuts and you have to put in a lot of time, really a lot.

Having said that, it well could be that the OP is a natural for languages, I guess we will see in 6 months!

It is a high bar, but the problem is not being or not being "a natural". While there may be no real short cuts (in the sense of "do this and you'll be B1 in 30 hours"), just avoiding some of the inefficient prolongation can prove to be enough of a "shortcut"(such as not wasting time on group classes, toy apps, stupid teachers, etc). Putting in a lot of time every day is the way to go. With good resources and methods.

If you don't need to hurry, then there is no point in forcing yourself to an incomfortable accelerated schedule. The accelerated schedule may also be impossible with too much of other workload, and if it is not a priority. But that's all very different from such an accelerated schedule being impossible in general.

So what is your opinion on Kwiziq? Please feel free to check my log, I updated it frequently in the last few days.

I agree that Duolingo was a bit of a waste and I did spend a lot of time on it. But Kwiziq feels good so far.

[Cavesa]

So what is your opinion on Kwiziq? Please feel free to check my log, I updated it frequently in the last few days.

I agree that Duolingo was a bit of a waste and I did spend a lot of time on it. But Kwiziq feels good so far.

Kwiziq is excellent! Well done, thorough, serious. And it clearly defines what it is supposed to be and then delivers it. It doesn't try to be everything, it excels at explaining and drilling grammar. The different parts (attempts at vocab drills or listening) are very minor and fortunately these experiments don't deviate the team's attention from the main value. It is a wonderful supplement, or even the main grammar resource, equal to various high quality workbooks I've used.

Another important thing is that Kwiziq is also meant for the higher levels, few resources are, and it also reflects in the fact the lower levels are not sloppy. Kwiziq is primarily a learning tool, that uses gamification elements, while toys like Duo are primarily toys, that use a bit of learning as a bait.

My only complaint: There are still just two languages, even though more were promised right from the start I really could do with Kwiziq for my other languages.

[jeffers]

...However, the biggest part of the grammar is reexplored at every level. It is more like learning it in layers, not about totally separate chunks of grammar, neatly stuffed in boxes that you open and close.

I like this! Languages are like onions. Because they make you cry? Well, sometimes, but mainly because they have layers. When we are learning a language, we can peel away a layer at a time. But when a language or an onion is actually used, we slice through the whole thing.

[LanguageLearner0007]

I wonder how is it going.