Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

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tungemål
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:16 pm

Le Baron wrote:
tungemål wrote:On a related note - the disappearing "N" is standard, isn't it? Like you'd say "zitte" for "zitten" and "leze" for "lezen".

Yes indeed. I think this has been around for well over a hundred years in the common spoken language, but a Dutch person in the know would have to comment upon that. It's not on every word or in every case though. Words like weten and wachten and spelen and dozens more are spoken complete with the final -n. Depending on where they arrive in the sentence, how quickly the person is speaking, how long the sentence is, what their general accent and speech register happens to be. That sort of thing.

It disappears quite a bit though. All those well-known phrases like 'effe checken' and e.g. 'hebben' in final position all see the -n disappear.

Well that's odd. Why would it not disappear in some words? Wiktionary writes "weten" as /ˈʋeːtə(n)/ i.e. with optional "n".

De gooische R:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2OM5TxNwJ4
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby Le Baron » Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:45 pm

Let's say I was at the doctor's and the receptionist says to me: 'u kunt in de wachkamer zitten'. Invariably she says the 'n' on zitten. The more politely you speak, the more you tend to pronounce the whole word. Or if you are being deliberate in speech, or if the sentence is really short. But certain words, let's say like belazeren...so random example sentence: het is niet eerlijk om iemand te belazeren; the word turns up with -n and without it. Same for binnen...etc

Listen to that guy on the telephone in the video you posted. When he answers the first question he says: 'samen' complete with -n (0:36/0:37) and 'problemen' (0:55-0:56). But then immediately says something closer to: 'losse(n) and 'krijge(n). So you can see it's mixed. On the whole he pronounces his final -n a lot. The radio presenter pronounces practically none.

At only one point do you hear the 'Gooische r', when he mocks it saying: 'Moederrr! Waarrr zijn m'n boterrrrhammen?!' :lol:

I think most people use some variant of the French style 'r'. And others tap or trill. I do the latter most of the time. Even though I can do an uvular trill for French..no idea why.
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:38 pm

A lecture on the Dutch "r" (in Dutch):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwAOwFkOrUs
Verspreiding van de Gooise R.

Universiteit van Nederland - a youtube channel that could be interesting.
Last edited by tungemål on Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby Le Baron » Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:00 pm

I have to say in that video at some points 'hij lult uit zijn nek'. It sounds like he's trying to make the facts fit a theory.
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:30 pm

About dialects in Nederland:
https://youtu.be/lV05Zu2kl8Q
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby MisterVimes » Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:32 am

About the disappearing -n after a schwa: it's true that it tends to be left out, especially when speaking quickly or informally. Although to me it feels more like it's still there, just not fully pronounced... almost like the "suggestion" of an n (maybe there's some vague nasalisation going on? I'm not sure). That's just based on a feeling though.

Depending on accent it might still be fully pronounced; especially in the north and east, local accents delete the schwa and make the n syllabic. E.g. kijkn, gevn (more like geem, thanks to assimilation), praatn.

And re: the r, there's a lot of variation there, depending on speaker/accent/position in the word or syllable. I believe someone once wrote a dissertation on this and there are like 7 different allophones of r. If you're interested I'll see if I can find it again.
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby Le Baron » Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:54 pm

MisterVimes wrote:About the disappearing -n after a schwa: it's true that it tends to be left out, especially when speaking quickly or informally. Although to me it feels more like it's still there, just not fully pronounced... almost like the "suggestion" of an n (maybe there's some vague nasalisation going on? I'm not sure). That's just based on a feeling though.

Totally agree. It's like a ghostly -n in quite a lot of cases. I had a similar dispute with David Crystal (English specialist) about the contraction/swallowing of letters in words like Worcester, Cholmondley...where I said you could 'feel' the suppressed letters. He wouldn't hear of it. :lol: I still think he was wrong.

MisterVimes wrote:Depending on accent it might still be fully pronounced; especially in the north and east, local accents delete the schwa and make the n syllabic. E.g. kijkn, gevn (more like geem, thanks to assimilation), praatn.

This is a brilliant point and true. You hear this in Plat Utrechts, especially praatn with the heavy diphthong in place of 'aa'.
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Fri Feb 11, 2022 6:17 pm

How to keep the nutrients in vegetables:
https://youtu.be/_xj0VL6EoNI
Interesting.
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:30 pm

I'm reading the "geschiedenis van Nederland" and enjoying it.
Short history of N. in the middle ages:: The dutch are a seafaring people, trade makes above all the cities Brugge, Gent and Antwerpen wealthy (which are in todays Belgium). There are some catastrophic floods when the dikes break.

By the way, I noticed this little sentence:
"het waren er heel veel"

It stands out to me because I'd say "er waren heel veel". But I guess you need the "het"?
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby Snufkin » Thu Feb 24, 2022 9:06 pm

Have you heard of "Van nul tot nu"? It's a series of comic books about Dutch history. It's obviously very light compared to actual history books and it's targeted at teenagers but you might enjoy reading them.
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