Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

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tungemål
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Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:28 pm

A log of me learning Dutch.
I already know basic Dutch from living there more than 20 years ago.

The ambitious-sounding title is not meant to be ambitious. It's just taken from a book I'd like to read.

My plan is to start reading, and later work on listening comprehension. For now, I need to brush up on core vocabulary (by reading). I'll probably use Anki to keep track of learned words.

On my reading list: my non-ambitious goal is to read something in Dutch. Here are some books that I have on my kindle:
- Geschiedenis van Nederland (Gijs van der Ham)
- Batavia (FitzSimons, vertaling: Frank van der Knoop) - thanks to Tommus for the recommendation
- H.C. Andersen: Sproken en vertellingen

Ok, now that I've started the log, there is no way back.
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Sun Jan 09, 2022 12:42 pm

One fear I have is that the Dutch will interfere with my German.

There are a couple of things that confused me in the past:
- dan - als: NL: beter dan, German: besser als. Dann in German is something else.
- "it is about": NL: het gaat over. In German it's not es geht über, but es geht um

And obviously the pronouns:
was (G) != was (NL) = war (G) != waar (NL) = where (eng) != wer (G) = wie (NL) != wie (G) != we (eng)
!= not equal to
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tommus » Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:06 pm

We seem to have very similar interests in Dutch books. I am currently at chapter 7 of 10 in Verleden van Nederland by Geert Mak and others. It starts way back in pre-history, 250,000 years ago and goes up to 2020. It is very comprehensive and perhaps not the most exciting book I've ever read. I have both the e-book and the audio book.

Verleden van Nederland

As I mentioned about Batavia, that book has a lot of violence in it, but is quite fascinating. Again, I have both the e-book and the audio book.

When I started learning Dutch, I had a lot of interference from my earlier exposure to German, especially with pronunciation. But I found that although a lot of the words are similar, the Dutch spelling is different enough that I don't have any trouble keeping them separated. Lots of reading/listening is the key.
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Sun Jan 09, 2022 6:47 pm

I see. Verleden van Nederland seems too comprehensive for me.
I think the Geschiedenis van Nederland is shorter.

Other books:
- De geschiedenis van Nederland in 100 voorwerpen - also Gijs van der Ham
- Beknopte geschiedenis van Nederland - James Kennedy
- There's also this book
- and this
but they're not for the Kindle
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby Le Baron » Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:02 pm

tungemål wrote:One fear I have is that the Dutch will interfere with my German.

There are a couple of things that confused me in the past:
- dan - als: NL: beter dan, German: besser als. Dann in German is something else.
- "it is about": NL: het gaat over. In German it's not es geht über, but es geht um

And obviously the pronouns:
was (G) != was (NL) = war (G) != waar (NL) = where (eng) != wer (G) = wie (NL) != wie (G) != we (eng)
!= not equal to


Don't fear that. More than half the population here says als instead of dan. I haven't checked pre 20th century Dutch, but I think als was also in use through low-German and it is hard to remove this.

Also Het gaat om is a perfectly good Dutch version of: 'it's about...'
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:24 pm

I have read one story by H.C. Andersen. It was "de oude straatlantaarn". I might read one or two more, probably one of the more famous ones.

The book I've got is a gutenberg project, a e-text based on an old translation. Some old spelling I noticed:
"ge" for je
"boschen" for bossen
"menschen" for mensen
(and so on)
and maybe some oldfashioned phrases.
edit: and "zoo" - I thought that looked strange - it's now spelled "zo".

I collect words in anki - both words that I didn't know and important words that I was not sure of. Anyway, my passive understanding is of course far better than my ability to speak or write.
Last edited by tungemål on Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby Le Baron » Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:46 pm

You may know or not know, but 'ge' is still in use in Belgium. So is 'gij' instead of 'jij'. Probably not in 'Algemeen Vlaams', but you hear loads of people using it "on the street" as it were.

Just out of interest... I was here when they did the last spelling reform in 2005 (or was it earlier?), which was endlessly discussed on TV. I had thought at the time that the spellings like mensch/mens had only been changed in the 1954 reform, when they published that 'Groene Boekje'. However it was already happening before the turn of the 20th century when R.A. Kollewijn suggested those spellings in the 1890s. Many are now standard, certainly the replacement of the -sch at the end and middle of words. That old spelling didn't even represent how the language was actually spoken since Middle-Dutch! This also led to strange spellings based on pronunciation through the 60s/70s with word like kapitalistisch written as kapitalisties. Since a lot of people actually say it like that.

The piecemeal reforms seem to always cause new problems (though some might not be actual problems, just change that is too rapid for people to keep up with). For 100 years there has been no difference between as (an axle) and as (ash..which used to be asch). So you get:

Na een brand heb je niks anders dan as = after a fire you have nothing but ashes.
De as van mijn auto is beschadigd = The axle of my car is damaged.

Not a major problem given the context. Other spellings remain a problem, especially the 'n' between words like pannenkoek/pannekoek. My wife still writes 'kado' instead of cadeau and once when I gave a statement to the police the policewoman, about 50 at the time, wrote 'accoord' rather than akkoord. As an active learner I thought I was clever pointing this out. However she said: "Young man, when I was at school it was accoord and accoord it's going to stay!" You can't really argue with that.

Anyway, sorry for hijacking. I thought this might be interesting!
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:30 pm

I read another sprookje by H. C. Andersen - de tondeldoos (tinder box). A fairytale with a questionable moral - but fun to read. Tondeldoos is a word I likely will never need, and I didn't know the english word either untill now. It is what they used before matches were invented.
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby Le Baron » Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:57 pm

Have you ever been a scout or in the army cadets? They use(d) tinderboxes.

What is it in Norwegian?
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Re: Geschiedenis van Nederland (Dutch log)

Postby tungemål » Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:49 pm

Le Baron wrote:Have you ever been a scout or in the army cadets? They use(d) tinderboxes.

No, I've never seen a tinderbox.
What is it in Norwegian?

Fyrtøy, which I used to think was just another word for lighter.
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