dEhiN's Language Log

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dEhiN
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » Sun Jan 09, 2022 7:24 am

Alright, last post of the day.

Tamil
Here's a screenshot of one specific scene that I'm particularly proud of in terms of parsing the subtitled Tamil text. In this screenshot, the guy is saying to the woman, "When I come up here, you know what I wonder about?":
01.07.22_1.png

The Tamil text reads:
/iŋgeː meːleː ʋaɾɯmpoː d̪ɯ, n̪aː n ed̪e͡ipːatri joːsipːeːn t̪eɾijɯmaː/
here on come-go, I which-about will-think-I know-it?

Here's my gloss of that sentence:
/iŋgeː/ - here, noun
/meːleː/ - on, preposition
/ʋa/ - come, verb root
/poː/ - go, verb root
/ʋaɾɯmpoːd̪ɯ/ - I'm not too sure of this one; I know the two verb roots and from context I can piece together why both are used, but in actuality, I don't know what the functions of /ɾɯm/ or /d̪ɯ/ are.
/n̪aːn/ - I, 1st person singular nominative pronoun
/ed̪ɯ/ - which, interrogative pronoun
/e͡i/ - accusative marker
/patri/ - about, preposition
/ed̪e͡ipːatri/ - agglutination of /ed̪ɯ/, /e͡i/ and /patri/
/joːsi/ - think, verb root
/pː/ - future tense marker
/eːn/ - 1st person singular verb marker
/joːsipːeːn/ - agglutination of /joːsi/, /pː/ and /eːn/
/t̪eɾija/ - know, verb root
/um/ - 3rd person neuter/inanimate verb marker for future tense
/aː/ - interrogative suffix
/t̪eɾijɯmaː / - agglutination of /t̪eɾija/, /um/ and /aː/

For anyone interested in learning some Tamil, time for a little lesson. Actually, this is more of me explaining some of the above, particularly with the agglutinated words.
  1. In Tamil, there are grammar suffix addition rules
  2. The combining of a short vowel sound (which /ɯ/ counts as) and the accusative marker cause the short vowel to be dropped and the accusative marker to be suffixed on
  3. Certain combinations of one word being added to another cause the first letter of the second word to be geminated
  4. The combining of a word ending in a short vowel and a suffix beginning with a short vowel causes the first vowel to be dropped, like in the /a/ at the end of /t̪eɾija/
  5. The interrogative suffix can be tacked onto anything (except interrogative pronouns) to make it into a question
  6. Tamil verbs are essentially made up of verb root + tense marker + person marker
  7. Tamil verbs are divided into 6 (or 7?) verb classes and the main differences between then are the tense markers they use
  8. Tamil stative verbs (such as know) are formed using a dative-subject concept: the subject of the sentence is put in the dative form, though it can also be frequently dropped as is the case here, and the verb is conjugated for the 3rd person neuter (or inanimate) marker for future tense
  9. /pː / is the future tense marker for only some of the verb classes
  10. While the person markers for verbs are generally the same regardless of which tense, aspect or mood is being used, the 3rd person neuter (or inanimate) marker has one form for past and present and another for future tense

Wow, I might need to add to my Tamil short-term goals to review some grammar points. To be honest, I'm not 100% sure that the first 3 suffix addition rules (numbers 2, 3 and 4) are correct, or, rather, that I stated them correctly. There are obviously rules governing the agglutination used in the Tamil subtitled text. But, I'm not sure if the rules are quite what I stated or something else that produced the same effect. I also would like to review and cement in the different verb classes, particularly with respect to their different tense markers, and the different noun classes.
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dEhiN
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:40 am

Challenge update time.

This is what I did today:
01.09.22.png

Notes:
French
The TV show I watched seemed to be an English one that was dubbed into French. Unfortunately, I can't lip read, so I couldn't match any English dialogue to the French. I also found it harder than I had hoped it would be to follow along, but once I turned on the subtitles (in French), it was easier. I was hoping I wouldn't have to though, since I really want to work on my listening comprehension. For the podcast, it's an interesting one that I found one day. The author (podcaster?) is a native France French speaker who's a French teacher in Poland. His intent with this podcast is to help the intermediate learner by discussing general topics for each episode, but doing so at a slightly reduced talking speed. Even with the reduced speed, I still struggle to follow along, though I can get the gist of about 25-50% of per episode. That said, I probably actually catch between 10-20% of the words used, at least that's the percentage I catch and understand in context while it's being uttered. Anyway, this episode was with a Quebec French YouTube teacher, and they discussed various differences between the two varieties. I even watched the video of the actual interview on YouTube with my girlfriend, which was a lot of fun and sparked some good English-mixed-with-French conversation.
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zenmonkey
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:15 am

Good luck with your learning. Just a minor fault in your signature. There is an extra ‘me’ in the French text.
Veuillez corriger mes fautes dans n'importe quelle langue.
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dEhiN
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:10 pm

zenmonkey wrote:Good luck with your learning. Just a minor fault in your signature. There is an extra ‘me’ in the French text.
Veuillez corriger mes fautes dans n'importe quelle langue.

Merci pour ta correction. Parfois, j'ai de difficulté avec le pronom réflexive et quand on peut l'utiliser avec des verbes. Je connais qu'il y a des verbes avec qui c'est nécessaire. Mais j'ai une tendance pour ajouter ce pronom avec des autres verbes aussi.
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jackb
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby jackb » Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:47 pm

he author (podcaster?) is a native France French speaker who's a French teacher in Poland. His intent with this podcast is to help the intermediate learner by discussing general topics for each episode, but doing so at a slightly reduced talking speed.


This is Inner French (https://innerfrench.com/podcast/). If you go back to the beginning, he speaks even slower. He provides transcripts in a pdf for free with registration. The podcasts are engaging and the first few podcasts may hit your sweet spot.
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dEhiN
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » Thu Jan 13, 2022 8:26 pm

jackb wrote:This is Inner French (https://innerfrench.com/podcast/). If you go back to the beginning, he speaks even slower. He provides transcripts in a pdf for free with registration. The podcasts are engaging and the first few podcasts may hit your sweet spot.

Thanks, yes, this is the one I was thinking of! I haven't checked out the transcripts too much, mostly because I'll put on an episode while driving. I did try and listen to his first few episodes, but really was only able to get through I think the first one or two. I didn't know he had sped up his speech speed from when he first started. I particularly liked the recent episode comparing France French to Quebec French. I haven't listened to all of it, but what I have listened to has helped me quite a bit with general Quebec pronunciations.
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Le Baron
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby Le Baron » Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:39 pm

dEhiN wrote:Merci pour ta correction. Parfois, j'ai parfois des difficultés avec le pronom réflexive réfléchi et quand on peut l'utiliser avec des verbes. Je connais sais qu'il y a des verbes avec qui lesquels c'est nécessaire*. Mais j'ai aussi une tendance pour à ajouter ce pronom avec des autres verbes aussi.

* Remember that with things it is not qui, but lequel/laquelle/lesquels/lesquelles. To bypass all of that it's easier to use 'où'. So with the above, instead of 'avec lesquels c'est nécessaire...' you could write: où il doit être utilisé.
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dEhiN
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby dEhiN » Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:34 am

Le Baron wrote:
dEhiN wrote:Merci pour ta correction. Parfois, j'ai parfois des difficultés avec le pronom réflexive réfléchi et quand on peut l'utiliser avec des verbes. Je connais sais qu'il y a des verbes avec qui lesquels c'est nécessaire*. Mais j'ai aussi une tendance pour à ajouter ce pronom avec des autres verbes aussi.

* Remember that with things it is not qui, but lequel/laquelle/lesquels/lesquelles. To bypass all of that it's easier to use 'où'. So with the above, instead of 'avec lesquels c'est nécessaire...' you could write: où il doit être utilisé.

Thank you so much! I'm not sure if I learned about the use of qui only with animate objects. I learned the differentiation between qui and que, but I also never quite knew when to use lequel/laquelle/lesquels/lesquelles. So those are relative pronouns generally used with avec to signify an inanimate noun in the main clause?

You know, at first, seeing your corrections discouraged me a bit because I thought my French writing was progressing past low intermediate. But, then I recalled a thought I had recently: I felt that my sentences were still largely English influenced. Sure, there are some distinctly French ways of expressing sentences or clauses that I'm aware of, but because there's so much similarity between English and French, it's easy for me to apply an English style to my communication even when thinking directly in French. I wish there were resources that focused on the concept of pragmatics for L2 learners. Syntax and vocab are great and definitely needed, but so is the understanding of pragmatic style across one's L1 and L2 languages.
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Anki
fr : 658 / 1473
es : 199 / 799
ta : 59 / 649
pt : 118 / 556
mi : 10 / 22
tl : 5 / 37
sq : 12 / 73

Study resources
¡Adelante! Uno : 11 / 218

ISO 639-1 Language Codes

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Le Baron
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby Le Baron » Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:08 am

Yes, it's not easy to iron-out habits of word order and other syntactical idiosyncrasies. Especially, as you said, when there's so much initial similarity between English and French. You get things which can be almost identical in construction, things like e.g. simple future utterances: on va essayer = we're going to try...on part demain = We're going tomorrow.. but then all the reflexive pronouns and 'y' and 'en' and subjunctives and whatnot soon kick in and spoil everything. :lol:

I'm sure you're over that hill for the most part, though naturalistic sentences are always full of traps and something that can only be reduced rather than eliminated in most cases. The only solution seems to be constant imitation of examples from reading material and speech to fall into line with the patterns.
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Re: dEhiN's Language Log

Postby lemonbird » Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:50 am

dEhiN wrote:I particularly liked the recent episode comparing France French to Quebec French. I haven't listened to all of it, but what I have listened to has helped me quite a bit with general Quebec pronunciations.


Si tu as aimé Geneviève de maprofdefrançais, je t'invite à aller voir sa chaîne à elle aussi! Elle a fait une entrevue avec Hugo de innerfrench mais elle a aussi plusieurs autres vidéos sur différents sujets et elle parle assez lentement en général.

Si ça t'intéresse, je connais aussi d'autres chaînes de français québécois dans le même genre.

Bonne chance dans tes études!
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