Eternal Sunshine of the Italian Mind

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StringerBell
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Re: è un po che non ci vediamo

Postby StringerBell » Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:09 pm

So far, so good with WriteStreak. I've been writing for 10 minutes every day. I decided that before doing anything else Italian-related, I have to do the writing first. It's a really good motivator since I really look forward to getting started on reading and by knocking off the writing first it prevents me from leaving it until the evening, when I'm more likely to make excuses or feel too tired to want to deal with writing. Once I'm actually writing it's not bad and the 10 minutes flies by; the biggest hurdle is just actually getting started.

I've been experimenting with various strategies for dealing with unknown words in my reading. I'm trying to get more comfortable with not looking up every single one, especially when I can tell that they are not really important to what's going on. Currently, I'm limiting myself to no more than 1 or 2 look-ups per page when there are multiple words (unless it's a word that's appeared multiple times or it's really bugging me to not look it up). Almost everything I'm looking up goes into Anki, but since I have it limited to no more than 5 new cards per day, I'm spending less than 10 min/day doing flashcard reviews which feels very reasonable.

The situations that really annoy me are when I understand all the words in a sentence but I still can't seem to make any sense of it. This almost always means that there's some kind of slang expression or construction that I don't know. Luckily, this doesn't happen frequently anymore but when it does I can't help but think, "do I even know this language at all? WTH is going on here?" For example, yesterday I came across this sentence: Strinse a più non posso i pugni. I knew what each word in that sentence meant individually but I just couldn't put them together in anyway that made sense. Turns out that was because "a più non posso" is an expression that means "as much as possible" and it was plopped in the middle of another phrase that meant "he clenched his fists". Therefore, the whole thing was: he clenched his fists as much as possible. A più non posso is a construction I'd never seen or heard before, so I'm going to practice using that because it's a hard one for me to remember.

Reading Challenge Week 4: Jan 3 - Jan 9

Books finished this week:

5) Diario di una schiappa - Jeff Kinney (translation of the 1st book in the Diary of a Wimpy Kid series) 50 pages

I've read this book twice before a few years ago. This series is what I return to when I want to give my brain a break and read something easier. I think I have 5 of them in Italian. There are 212 pages in each one that I determined are equal to 50 "real" pages based on the average word count. I decided to keep this book handy during the week so that I could read a few pages here and there later in the evening when I didn't feel like concentrating on more challenging reading. I found that I could even read a few pages in between stirring stuff on the stove for dinner or while waiting for my turn in the bathroom to brush my teeth. A nice thing about having 2 books going at the same time is that I noticed a few words appearing in both books.

6) Cercando Alaska - John Green (translation of Looking for Alaska) 297 pages

The main character in this book is a teenage boy from FL. He's a loner with no friends who gets the opportunity to go to a boarding school in Alabama. He's determine to suck the marrow out of life and ends up doing just that when he makes a handful of close friends, has some crazy adventures, and then has to deal with the complications of love and loss.

I read both the English and Italian version of this book a few years ago. Even though I think it's considered a YA novel, the writing is not simple by any means, which was why I used the English version as a parallel text in the past. I was expecting this to be a really challenging read the second time around, but whether due to the fact that I'd already read it or possibly that my Italian has gotten better, it wasn't as much of a slog as I'd been anticipating.

My level of unknown words probably averaged 1-3 per page. Every once in a blue moon there was a page with like 6-7 but most of the time the unknowns weren't words that really affected my ability to understand what was happening. However, it's still more unknowns than I feel comfortable with.
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rdearman
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Re: è un po che non ci vediamo

Postby rdearman » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:03 pm

When you get frustrated. Think about the poor Italian lad who has to deal with...

Bob's your uncle!
It has all gone pear shaped.
That's a different kettle of fish.
Cat got your tongue?
In my neck of the woods
Wipe the floor with someone
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jackb
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Re: è un po che non ci vediamo

Postby jackb » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:22 pm

This series is what I return to when I want to give my brain a break and read something easier.


I've read a handful of them in French and I use them the same way. I feel like 'easy' books/tv shows don't get any love on the forum. These books have pretty complex grammar only with a smaller set vocab. They also help when I've been doing hard stuff for two weeks and I feel like "Ugh...I still can't read French". I always have brighter outlook after reading 20 pages
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StringerBell
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Re: è un po che non ci vediamo

Postby StringerBell » Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:23 pm

jackb wrote:I've read a handful of them in French and I use them the same way. I feel like 'easy' books/tv shows don't get any love on the forum. These books have pretty complex grammar only with a smaller set vocab. They also help when I've been doing hard stuff for two weeks and I feel like "Ugh...I still can't read French". I always have brighter outlook after reading 20 pages


I agree! I really think that "easier" books can be more useful for language books than more difficult ones. This series is especially good for language learning because it's written the way people actually speak and it's funny enough that I can read it as a 40+ year old adult and actually enjoy it even though it's something I'd never read in my native language. I'm surprised more people don't embrace this series.

DaveAgain wrote:If you read 12 German novels this year, I fear you will still find 12 unread novels in your to-read pile. There is no natural logic to this, but the things do multiply.


You wrote this on Radioclare's log but I couldn't help but think it applied to me; I few weeks ago I mentioned that I had something like 10,000 pages worth of Italian books, 70% of which I hadn't read yet and wanted to finally get through them. I've been sharing books with my Italian friend lately and just this week she gave me 35 more...so it seems like just when I was finally starting to make a dent in my stack, the stack doubled and at the end of the year's challenge I'll still have 10,000 pages left to read!
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Re: è un po che non ci vediamo

Postby rdearman » Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:10 pm

Lol. That happened to me with my "Clear the bookshelves challenge" soon as I knocked out a couple of books rather than throw them away I gifted them to my French neighbour, who came around the next day with a bag full of French books. I couldn't refuse, but I did learn my lesson and I haven't given her any more books. Now they go to the charity shop!
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StringerBell
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Re: è un po che non ci vediamo

Postby StringerBell » Sun Jan 16, 2022 10:49 pm

I did 3 LE this past week (3 hours total of me speaking Italian) and I'm still consistently doing my 10 min/day WriteStreak challenge. I got one of my entries corrected to use as a baseline to compare to the end of the year to see if there is any kind of improvement.

Reading Challenge Week 4: Jan 10 - Jan 16

Books finished this week:

7) Il Castello di Vetro (translation of The Glass Castle - Jeannette Walls) 286 pages

Favorite new words/expressions from the book:
attaccare briga = to pick a fight
levare le tende = to pull up stakes / skedaddle

This is one of my favorite books. It's memoir written by a woman who grew up in a really crazy, unique, dysfunctional family. They had a tendency to pick up and move in the middle of the night throughout the years when they lived in the Southwest desert and eventually settled in a falling apart abandoned house in an impoverished town in West Virginia. I heard they made a movie of the book but I've never seen it.

Somewhere along the lines I got the brilliant idea, "wouldn't it be awesome to finish a book every week?" so instead of aiming for my already challenging 190 pages/week I ended up finishing this 286 page book this week. Which wouldn't have been a problem if I were reading it extensively but I read it intensively which ended up being really tedious and taking practically every spare moment I had which just isn’t sustainable. Plus, I read a 300 page book intensively the previous week, too, and I'm starting to feel a little burned out. My vocabulary isn't yet at a place where I can read novels comfortably. I think "comfortable" for me means a maximum of 1 or 2 unknown words/sentences per chapter. The first 60% of the book there were probably 3-4 unknown words on most kindle pages. I could figure out most either from context or because I've read the English version so many times I practically have it memorized but if I'd seen those words in another book I don't know that I would have been able to figure them out. For the second half of the book it was more like 1 word every page or two.

Out of curiosity, I counted how many book pages I read in the past a couple year ago and discovered that I did ~3,200 pages That combined with my current total (1328 pages) is close to a Superchallenge but still nowhere near enough for me to read in a way that I consider enjoyable. I suspect it will take a minimum of 20,000 pages (if not more) for me to actually get to a point where I can pick up a novel I've never read before and read it easily with few unknown words.

That said, to avoid total burnout I am going to attempt next week what I really hate doing: read a book extensively without looking up anything. However, it will be a book that I already read in Italian intensively a few years ago. Hopefully, most of those words are still in the ole noggin somewhere. And to keep the temptation to look up unknown words at bay, I’m going to read it while listening to the audiobook (which I’ve already done in the past). Hopefully the audiobook will keep me in line and away from the dictionary.
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Re: è un po che non ci vediamo

Postby lingua » Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:34 pm

That is the point of reading in my opinion. The beginning of the book may be difficult but as you get used to the authors writing style and choice of vocabulary it gets easier. I would also suggest interspersing with nonfiction books on subjects of interest. They are much easier overall and often (depending on subject) you encounter a lot of English cognates. Plus it helps build vocabulary about subjects you enjoy and can provide a broader vocabulary to use with your LE partners.

I read a lot of Italian books and have been for the last six years. I still encounter unknown words all the time. With the Kindle I don't let it get in the way of enjoying the book.
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Re: è un po che non ci vediamo

Postby DaveAgain » Sun Jan 16, 2022 11:49 pm

StringerBell wrote:My vocabulary isn't yet at a place where I can read novels comfortably. I think "comfortable" for me means a maximum of 1 or 2 unknown words/sentences per chapter.
That's a very high bar!
The first 60% of the book there were probably 3-4 unknown words on most kindle pages. I could figure out most either from context or because I've read the English version so many times I practically have it memorized but if I'd seen those words in another book I don't know that I would have been able to figure them out. For the second half of the book it was more like 1 word every page or two.

Out of curiosity, I counted how many book pages I read in the past a couple year ago and discovered that I did ~3,200 pages That combined with my current total (1328 pages) is close to a Superchallenge but still nowhere near enough for me to read in a way that I consider enjoyable. I suspect it will take a minimum of 20,000 pages (if not more) for me to actually get to a point where I can pick up a novel I've never read before and read it easily with few unknown words.

That said, to avoid total burnout I am going to attempt next week what I really hate doing: read a book extensively without looking up anything. However, it will be a book that I already read in Italian intensively a few years ago. Hopefully, most of those words are still in the ole noggin somewhere. And to keep the temptation to look up unknown words at bay, I’m going to read it while listening to the audiobook (which I’ve already done in the past). Hopefully the audiobook will keep me in line and away from the dictionary.
I tend to read French books intensively too, but I don't read many novels. When I do I have more unknown words than you! To meet your "one or two words a chapter" I would have to read non-fiction.

With German, where I have a much smaller vocabulary, I tend to alternate between reading one book looking up all unknown words and the next looking up none.

If you take up Lingua's suggestion of adding some non-fiction you might like to consider Gibbon's decline and fall of the roman empire. Gutenberg have an italian copy, and I dont' think you'd find the vocabulary difficult.
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StringerBell
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Re: è un po che non ci vediamo

Postby StringerBell » Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:14 pm

lingua wrote: I would also suggest interspersing with nonfiction books on subjects of interest. They are much easier overall and often (depending on subject) you encounter a lot of English cognates.

I read a lot of Italian books and have been for the last six years. I still encounter unknown words all the time. With the Kindle I don't let it get in the way of enjoying the book.


I totally agree that non-fiction is easier, especially when it's on a topic that I've already read about a lot. I don't like personal growth/self-help books at all in English, but I find myself reading about these kinds of things in Italian because it feels relatively easy and somehow that makes it more enjoyable. One of the books I read a few weeks ago (L'inglese Spontaneo) was so easy that I often forgot I was reading in Italian - there were maybe 1 or 2 new words per chapter, which was really refreshing.

I have at least 6 non-fiction books (plus a few that my Italian friend gave me) so I'll take a peek at a few random pages to see just how challenging they are, and if they look relatively easy I'll move them higher up the list.

I don't find reading on my kindle easier than physical, paper books - I still look up everything on my computer. I keep my kindle offline while I read and the Italian dictionary I have downloaded (Zingarelli) can't deal with reflexive verbs most of the time and for most other words it often gives definitions that aren't at all useful: for example if I click on a word like "happily" the only definition it gives me is "to do something in a happy way". I'd say it gives me a useful definition about 25% of the time I click on a word. Sometimes it gives a real definition but using other Italian words I don't know, so that ends up not being useful, either. I finally just stopped using the pop-up dictionary feature because it was a waste of time. How do you have your kindle set up? Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

DaveAgain wrote:I tend to read French books intensively too, but I don't read many novels. When I do I have more unknown words than you! To meet your "one or two words a chapter" I would have to read non-fiction.


Thank you for sharing this! I've been feeling like there's something wrong because reading books still feels like such a chore and I keep thinking I should be better by now but maybe I just have a significantly lower threshold for unknown words than most other people. If I'm reading something that's more complex in English I can definitely accept a higher number of unknown words per chapter (but I still look them all up, even in English). However, if I'm reading a crime thriller or a YA novel, having several unknown words per page feels really intolerable. I keep feeling like, "do I actually know what's going on here or am I just guessing?"

DaveAgain wrote: If you take up Lingua's suggestion of adding some non-fiction you might like to consider Gibbon's decline and fall of the roman empire. Gutenberg have an italian copy, and I don't think you'd find the vocabulary difficult.


Thanks for the recommendation!
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Re: è un po che non ci vediamo

Postby StringerBell » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:56 pm

I'm realizing that I'd like to organize my vocabulary review/reading situation a little better. Up till now I've been adding all the unknown words from all the books into one big deck. I've got 630 words in one deck so far and I've learned about 125 of them. Recently, I've been feeling like learning new words is a neverending, tedious chore that's not making a big difference in my comprehension when I realized that I was probably making it seem that way by having only 1 main deck that's always getting bigger, so no matter how much progress I make I'll never be able to actually finish the deck.

So, what I'd like to do going forward is to create one deck per book, add the unknowns from a particular book into it's own deck, and when I finish learning all the words in that deck go back and reread the book. I think that will give me a sense of accomplishment - not only will I actually get to finish and delete decks but rereading a book after learning new words pulled from the book should hopefully help me to feel like my effort is actually resulting in an improvement because the 2nd time around the book should feel a lot easier.

I don't know why I didn't start doing it this way from the beginning. Probably because I wasn't convinced I'd be able to stick with Anki for longer than a few weeks so I didn't want to bother with making multiple decks.

********

WriteStreak has been going well except that I somehow accidently skipped a day. I don't know how that happened but it did. :oops: Bummer! I was hoping for a solid 1 year streak. Oh well, I'm not going to dwell on it, missing 1 day isn't the end of the world. Just before I start writing, I pull an expression or a word or two from my anki deck that I want to incorporate into that day's writing, which has been working well.

********

I've noticed during my LE that my LEPs will sometimes not know a word in English, so they'll revert to Italian to explain what they want to say. I almost always know exactly what they're talking about and will give them the word/expression they're searching for. Interestingly, I rarely need to ask them for a word (which I think is a sign that my vocabulary is decent) BUT where I do tend to struggle is with more complex verb tenses/grammar.

I'm not really sure if this is something that's ever going to get easier but I've been thinking that I might go through my old Practice Makes Perfect Italian Grammar book to see if I can improve a few areas that I consistently struggle with. I've tried this in the past and it didn't help much but maybe going through it a 2nd time now will make a difference. It could be my brain just wasn't ready to embrace certain grammatical concepts in the past and now it's finally ready. I'm not really excited about this idea since I hate studying grammar but I'm also tired of making the same mistakes over and over.
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