Enter The Dragon: An Explosive Odyssey of a First Timer Learning Mandarin

[Hunky Dory]

Introduction
Hey, I'm your average twenty-something year old English speaker. As is everyone else in my corner of the world, I'm sadly monolingual. At school I bombed out of Japanese whilst I scrapped by in the bottom level French class until I could quit. I believed until recently that you are either born with language talents or you’re born without. I figured I didn't have the language learning gene. The Internet really changed that belief. So I'm here now and I really feel like I can learn Mandarin. I mean I have to. It's for survival!

Why Choose Mandarin As Your First Language?
Uhhh because I actually live in China and I’ve got a once-in-lifetime chance to do it and so far I've blown it. Okay okay let me back it up for a second.
I’ve been living here for about a year and it's been an amazing experience but I really didn’t bother to push myself to learn. Mostly I deferred to friends or changed my daily routine to get by without speaking. But it’s stupid to be here and not learn. I see plenty of other foreigners who are proud they haven’t learned anything. Boasting about an inability seems strange to me. In a way I feel a bit ashamed I’ve been here for so long and have very little to show for it. Anyway, my attitude has changed and I really want to learn. I want to communicate better with the great friends I’ve met here, to properly function in society, and to have a clue as to what’s happening in the country I’m living in.

What I've Done
Despite a year here, it hasn't totally been a waste. My ears have adjusted and I can hear subtle difference between speakers depending on their region.
-I've also done about 8 hours of pronunciation practice (still can't nail my z, j, c, q, s, x, r, ch, zh, sh sounds but there is a marked improvement since I started);
-I've done 40 lessons of Assimil;
-I know about 200-250 characters.
It's a respectable start but its taken months. My spoken output is very very poor and doesn't amount to much. For reference I can speak words but when it comes to speaking sentences I fail. I’m finding it very hard to speak a sentence AND pronounce all the words correctly AND successfully hit the right tones.

What I Want
I want to learn how to speak, listen, read and type. Yes I'm not planning on writing but I'm open to changing my mind if writing can lead to greater success.

My Method
I'm taking a multi-pronged approach. I welcome all feedback and suggestions.
-Exposure: I'm in China so it's all around me, however I can increase this exposure by listening to Mandarin at work or relaxing at home;
-Assimil Chinese with Ease: 40 lessons in, I can make it 100. Truth is I'm not sure how to use Assimil. My approach is to listen at home with the book and listen later as I travel to work. Really just repeat and repeat into my skull;
-Media: Even though I don’t own a television I have access to all types of media here. A big opportunity I have is that I can listen to music/radio while I work. I currently listen to English songs but there is no reason I can't listen to Chinese songs;
Grammar: I've got both the Practical Guide and the Work Book. Haven't used either yet. This is kind of stupid but I don’t actually know how to learn grammar. Do I just read the books and hope it sticks? Any practical advice here? ;
-Anki: I've got the iOS app...

My Anki strategy is:
-Characters from Assimil + Characters I encounter in my day-to-day life.
Structure: Front = Hanzi. Back = Pinyin & English (and notes if applicable)
-Sentences from this deck
-Heisig method (I still need to get this book so I don’t know when I’ll start)

In addition to those two, I might make an:
-Additional sentence deck from Assimil + media + day-to-day life
-MCD when I've reached an intermediate stage

Also will consider FSI after Assimil
If you think this is overkill or a waste of time or out of my depth, let me know. I believe this approach is subject to change based on convenience, time, and usability.

Challenges & Obstacles
1) I'm somewhat self-taught and this is my first time learning a foreign language. It's all a bit too much at this stage. I don't feel directionless but the way forward is unclear;
2) My memory is rather poor. I hear a new word from friends but forget it fast;
3) I have the tendency to put things off or fall off the wagon. Hope this log makes me accountable;
4) I don't own a laptop or PC, just an iPad;
5) I work 9-6 5 days a week with some overtime and potential work on Saturday. Time is limited.

Questions
I need some actionable advice here... I don't know how to make the leap from asking a generic question I've rehearsed to having a proper conversation. Is it a matter of learning lots of words + grammar and then speaking? I feel the methods I’ve researched explain it like drawing this owl photo. There seems to be a large gap from Point A to Point B.

General Other
I made a log for accountability and to speak to like-minded language learners. I think having someone starting from scratch while living in China might be of interest to the community so I figured I’d share my journey. I don't know how long I will be living here for so I want to make the most of my time. If you have any resources, guides, etc, that you think will help me please let me know. Also if you have any questions about life in China feel free to ask. I’ll try and keep autobiographical information limited for the time being~. Thanks for checking my log.

[sfuqua]

I hesitate to give advice to someone in a very different place in their language learning journey. I studied Mandarin 30 years ago, and my impression was that it was way overblown for its difficulty at the basic level, and that it is wonderfully, amazingly, beautifully complex and wonderful at any level higher than a basic, tourist level.

I can tell you one thing about language learning. You won't fail if you don't quit. If this doesn't work, try that. Don't worry if you don't do something right. Just do it again or do something else. Just don't quit. Nobody, nothing can stop you if you don't quit.

Let me tell you some of my goofs in language learning.

In Samoa, as a Peace Corps volunteer, at a public meeting, I introduced the leader of our village to the Peace Corps director as the town's drag queen (the word sounds alike).

In Samoa I spent a week telling everyone that Elvis was dead (yep, I'm that old) using a tense which meant, "he was dead, but he is alive again."

I chatted up an attractive young lady for about 10 minutes in my best Samoan, she smiled and nodded and then asked me in English what language I was speaking.

In Tagalog, I once followed the directions I had carefully written down directly to the most dangerous place possible in Manila instead of to the oldest church in Manila.

I once made a girl fall down laughing, I was so clumsy trying to ask her on a date.

Crossing the street to the US Embassy, I misunderstood something one of the Filipino protestors outside was saying and caused a panic and made the friends with me run full speed into the embassy, which makes Marine guards get excited.

I can't even mention all of the dumb ways I tried to learn languages.

Have fun, language learning is an absolute blast

[Sizen]

sfuqua has the right advice: just don't stop. You really can't fail if you keep trying. Especially if you're having fun.

As for the owl drawing, it's really quite self-explanatory in my opinion (if you're into strange metaphors):
You start with a couple circles, then tentatively draw a few more lines. And then a few more. And then a bunch more. Then you scrap it and start again. You try new lines; you experiment. You go back and touch up parts that got smudged up. You try again. And then, after days, weeks, months, you've got something that passes for an owl. But you don't stop there. You go out and look at real owls. You study every inch of their body. You look at artist renditions: real owls, fantasy owls, owl hybrids. You try to copy other people's owls. You assimilate their styles, their techniques. You watch living owls in action: flying, grooming themselves, hunting, sleeping. Then you go back to the drawing board. You draw them from every angle possible. Now your drawings are really starting to look like owls. But they're not perfect. In fact, you may never draw the perfect owl, but who cares? Your owls are looking pretty okay to me. Just keep drawing new, different owls. Owls you like. Fun owls. One line at a time.

[PeterMollenburg]

Hi Hunky Dory,

Welcome to the forum...

I have no experience with Mandarin, and like sfuqua I agree that it is vitally important to do something in your chosen language on a consistent basis- ideally every single day.

I personally don't believe that following Assimil with FSI is overkill at all. I think it would be a smart move in fact as more than one good course will be required to get you on your way. If you get bored of your courses to the point you avoid them , I would advise to very swiftly find something else that holds your interest and do that. Or if you simply feel like you need the occasional break/days away from your courses then likewise find/do sth else. You are lucky indeed to be surrounded by the language, so even getting out there in the thick of it could be used to break things up a bit if you need to.

Good luck and don't stop until you've reached your goal. Nice avatar btw.

PM

[Arnaud]

deleted

[Ezy Ryder]

I studied Mandarin for the last 21 months or so, so here's a few things I can say from my personal experience:
1.: You'll need a lot of vocabulary (for proficiency - not a native-level, but far from a tourist as well). Over 10k definitely (from my experience).
2.: If you want to be able to read, you'll need Hanzi->Meaning cards. However, that doesn't necessarily translate to listening skills. I went through 10-13k words going from Hanzi to Pinyin & meaning, just to find out I could get the gist while reading a book, but couldn't understand what people said to me. I'm not sure if going Pinyin->Meaning would be much better... I (re)started going through the deck this way, when I was waiting for my plane back, went through ~4k words this way, and didn't see much improvement. (Have you taken a look at this deck? https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/2003820603 )
3.: It's only a conjecture of mine, but I do believe the question is not whether you have a good memory; but rather, if you know how to use it, and train it (using mnemonics, and SRS (plus experience, over time)).

加油！

[smallwhite]

Over on how-to-learn-any-language.com there's a member called Ari who speaks Mandarin, Cantonese and a few other languages. I highly recommend reading his posts. He doesn't talk much about learning Chinese specifically, but his beliefs and strategies will lead you in the right direction.

This is one of his posts about listening: Ari’s Chinesepod method

I do something very similar, and the method works wonders for me as well.

Meanwhile Ezy Ryder should share with everyone how he got his awesome accent in Mandarin!

[rdearman]

Hey you're in a great place to learn Mandarin. I have some resources you might find useful in my log.
http://how-to-learn-any-language.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=695
I wouldn't worry to much about forgetting words, it is just part of the process. Learn, forget, learn, forget, learn, remember. Keep at it and you'll get there eventually. Think of it as a marathon not a sprint, although being constantly surrounded by other marathoners not couch potatoes is a definite advantage!

[Evita]

Grammar: I've got both the Practical Guide and the Work Book. Haven't used either yet. This is kind of stupid but I don’t actually know how to learn grammar. Do I just read the books and hope it sticks? Any practical advice here? ;

It will take a long time if you just read about grammar; it's best to also do the exercises. That way you really learn how to apply the grammar points.

Actually, there are two parts to any grammar point - how to form it and how to use it. For example, let's say you are learning English and you want to learn the present continuous "I am doing" form. How would you do it?

1) The grammar book would tell you that you form this expression by saying "I am/you are/he is etc." + verb + ing. But it's not always that straightforward. What about "write"? You have to first remove the "e" and then add "ing". What about "hit"? You have to double the t before adding "ing". And so on. You may read those rules and think you know them, but that's not enough. If you were learning English, you would need to practice with many different verbs in order to be able to use this form correctly. That's what exercises are for.

2) Usage. When do you use the "I am doing" form? The grammar book would tell you that you should use it if the action is taking place right at that moment, so you would have to remember that. But sometimes the situations when you should use a particular grammar construction aren't obvious or clearly defined, and the textbook may have exercises where you have to look at some sentences and decide whether the construction is appropriate there or not. Those kinds of exercises are also very useful.

After doing the exercises, you should check the correct answers and compare them to your answers. If something doesn't match, think about that sentence again and try to figure out why your answer wasn't correct. If you really don't get it, you can ask for help here.

[outcast]

1.: You'll need a lot of vocabulary (for proficiency - not a native-level, but far from a tourist as well). Over 10k definitely (from my experience).

Chinese has the added difficulties of having a large number of written-only vocabulary, to me it seems significantly more than French but that could be cultural bias (one of my native languages is Romance). It feels I almost have to learn two languages, the written and spoken. I could give tons of examples (S : 就，W： 便 / S：把， W：将 / S：让 ， W：使 ). Also, the term "word" is relative, in Chinese you can splice words and make other words, so it feels that for every nuance in meaning there is a "new" word (朋友。。。室友。。舍友 / 发音， 美国。。。美音 / 今天， 早上。。。今早), those being the simplest ones.

Then add the vast geography so that you have to learn additional words from multiple areas (like Spanish), and it feels one needs far many more words in this language than for an equivalent level in my other languages.