Trying to take it easy

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BeaP
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby BeaP » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:33 pm

AllSubNoDub wrote:So you're reading 2666 after only reading 4 books, one of which you didn't finish, and one graded reader? Or was this just the recent list (you said you've been learning for 15 years)? If it's the former, I would assume you must have read lots of non-fiction, did lots of direct vocabulary study, and/or intensively read/studied the books you have read. How is your vocabulary coverage?

1. Yes, I do. I'm about to finish the first book. I don't find it difficult so far, although the other books in it might be harder to understand. I've read some pages from other novels as well, and decided to get back to them later, because I found them difficult. One example is Rayuela. In my opinion 2666 is not a very difficult book, especially not from a linguistic (vocabulary) point of view.
2. I haven't read any non-fiction. I've been reading El País on and off for years though. I've studied a lot of course books from Difusión. I have no idea about my vocabulary coverage, but at the DELE C2 mocks tests I've done so far I usually had pretty good results. I meet new words regularly, but I can infer their meaning from the text. Rayuela is the only example I can give you that really gave me the feeling that I only understand the gist of it.
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby AllSubNoDub » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:47 pm

BeaP wrote:In my opinion 2666 is not a very difficult book, especially not from a linguistic (vocabulary) point of view.

I have the book but I haven't cracked it open yet because I was intimidated. I subconsciously correlated book size with language difficulty. I would still like to intensively read a couple of more novels before I get there, but this is encouraging! Thanks. :D

It looks like you haven't enjoyed much of what you've read so far, I hope it gets better. Your reading list looks solid. It would be much appreciated if you would comment on the difficulty as you move through them.
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BeaP
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby BeaP » Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:59 pm

AllSubNoDub wrote:It would be much appreciated if you would comment on the difficulty as you move through them.

I will, I promise. There is very little information on language difficulty, I know. I usually search for advice on goodreads, but the native readers very rarely comment on these kinds of things, and the readers of translations naturally can't comment on them. However, in those rare cases when several native readers highlight the difficulty of a novel, I know right away that it's a huge red flag. (Beatus Ille from Muñoz Molina is an example.) I'd urge you to try and read the novels that you are interested in. What do you have to lose? Worst case scenario, you put it down and come back to it later. Nobody will get hurt from it.
I have B1 level in Italian, and I'd like to read in Italian Carlo Emilio Gadda and Gesualdo Bufalino very much. I have the Bufalino and tried to read it. Put it down after 2 pages. These writers are extremely difficult, and I hate that I have a long journey ahead of me if I want to reach them. At the moment I'm struggling with a Montalbano mystery and course books. I try to pick out the ones that are at least moderately enjoyable, but it's hard. Simply because these are books that I'd never read in my native language. I'm not interested in them.
On the other hand, it was a nice surprise that some classics are really easy. I could read Monte Cristo for example with a weak B2 French. Modern writers are on very different difficulty levels as well: Amélie Nothomb was easy, Houellebecq was a huge no, or at least not now. I put it to words for myself like: some novels are poetic, and some words are written in layman style. It has nothing to say with literary value. There are writers who choose to write in a linguistically simple way, because they want to be attainable for as many people as possible. Others choose to be enigmatic and hard. There are good and bad writers in both groups. For example Cortázar has his famous opinion about the 'lector hembra'. He hated those who didn't work hard during reading, so he wrote novels that are difficult. It's a pity for me, that he's one of my favourites.
Length also has very little correlation with difficulty in my opinion. The Camps mystery I mentioned I've read was 800 pages long. One of the worst novels I've ever tried to read, the B1 level graded reader La Verité sur l'affaire Harry Quebert is almost 700.
I know massive input works, but it takes an awful lot of time. Beside the reading I've already mentioned I've seen more that 50 series in Spanish. Some of them are on a very high level regarding vocabulary. Examples are: Paquita Salas, Arde Madrid, or the ones made from novels, like Patria on El día de mañana. I always had a small notebook with me, and wrote down the words I liked. I'm searching for a better method for learning Italian. I don't want to reach Bufalino in 10 years. But I don't know, maybe I just have to accept the rules of the game.
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BeaP
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby BeaP » Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:15 pm

I didn't do any proper studying at the weekend, but I finished the first book of 2666. I've read some reviews already, and several readers have mentioned that this is a book that you need to read more than once, and when they finished it, they started to read it again. Now I understand why they said that. It's not a difficult book to read, it contains a lot of everyday vocabulary and is relatively close to spoken language. But it gives a lot of food for thought, and details that you don't want to miss. It doesn't have a conventional storyline, it's like a kaleidoscope made up of anecdotes and dreams, all told by someone. However, it's a very difficult book emotionally. The first book (The part about the critics) slapped me on the face as a European. If you want to read the book without any preconceived ideas, stop reading this post now. It's very hard to make real spoilers, but I will reveal some of the things that occur.
The first book is about 4 scholars (French, Spanish, Italian, English) who are searching for a mysterious German writer, they dedicate their working life to. It's quite obvious that these scholars represent Europe, and that their behaviour is a critique of European behaviour. They are like spoiled children, living among pieces of art, travelling from one historical city to another, and at the same time they don't know anything about the real world, and they know absolutely nothing about the other continents. They speak multiple languages and constantly analyse novels, but when they arrive in Mexico and listen to someone talk about the life of Mexican writers, all they can say is that they didn't understand anything from what had been explained to them. They live immersed in culture, but when they are frustrated and hurt in their vanity, they act like animals.
I thought that it was strange that the book wasn't written in 5 different languages, because the characters switch languages all the time. A 'proper' European novel would be multilingual, even just to show-off, but Bolaño doesn't care about that, and he's right. This is not a European novel, and it shows the cultural differences really well.
The main theme for me so far is honesty, and this is a brutally honest book. And it doesn't just talk about these topics, but is an act of honesty at the same time. It's not hard to draw a similarity between the painter who does anything to increase the price of his works and Bolaño, who knows at the time of writing that his untimely death will affect the sales. But we can also say that he puts himself in his works of art, just like the painter, and this self-sacrifice, this vivisection is the quality that makes his novel real art. At the same time honesty is the most important thing that the characters lack. Consequently, they always try to reconstruct something, because it's an enigma for them. They are incapable of real, satisfying relationships and are always waiting for something dreamily, looking out of windows.

This is a truly remarkable novel, and if you feel like reading it, I really recommend it to you. I don't want to start a reading group, because I'm selfish, and I want to read the novels on my list, but if anyone joins me, and shares their opinion of the novels I'll be very happy. At the moment I'm doing an intensive reading of the first book, and I'll start the second part of 2666 only after that. There's time to catch up.
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby luke » Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:25 am

BeaP wrote:I didn't do any proper studying at the weekend, but I finished the first book of 2666. I've read some reviews already, and several readers have mentioned that this is a book that you need to read more than once, and when they finished it, they started to read it again. Now I understand why they said that.

The main theme for me so far is honesty, and this is a brutally honest book. And it doesn't just talk about these topics, but is an act of honesty at the same time.

This is a truly remarkable novel, and if you feel like reading it, I really recommend it to you.

You've inspired me to get it and I've got it and I've started it. I'm about 1/4 of the way into the the first book and appreciate you saying you're re-reading it. I think I will be doing the same. Maybe you can teach me :)
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BeaP
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby BeaP » Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:39 am

luke wrote: Maybe you can teach me :)

That's great news that I can share my experience and ideas with you. For me it has a lot of advantages if I don't do something alone, because I have a higher chance of finishing it. I didn't spend a lot more time studying when I was a student, but I knew that I had to finish things by a certain date and if I didn't study for an exam, at least I read through the material. That was much better than nothing. So yes, external motivation or a kind of unofficial study group might help a lot.
I don't know what your experience is, but I get the impression that there are a lot of useful phrases in the book so far. I write down the new words, and also those expressions that I know but are not part of my active language usage or contain a preposition that I don't use accurately in that phrase. For example: insistió en sentarse en el asiento de atrás, pasó desapercibida a Norton, los observó por el espejo retrovisor. I think not knowing these seemingly small things impedes speech, because I tend to stop and think: it it por, para, en or what? I try to read through the notes in the evening (2 minutes), I hope they'll sink in. I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts very much. We can teach each other :)
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby luke » Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:39 pm

BeaP wrote:
luke wrote: Maybe you can teach me :)

That's great news that I can share my experience and ideas with you. For me it has a lot of advantages if I don't do something alone, because I have a higher chance of finishing it.

I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts very much. We can teach each other :)

It was a nice surprise to see that you had responded favorably ;)

Here's what you've taught me already. I started over from the beginning today, since a lot of details were floating by. I've got both the 1119 page book (Vintage Español) and the Audible audiobook. I started by reading it in the bookstore to confirm your estimation of the book's "demands" of the reader linguistically, and I agree.

I've done some reading waiting for coffee or lunch. Mostly I've been listening on walks. And I've occasionally been hitting the "rewind 30 seconds" button, often more than once. I.E., rewind 2 minutes. That's mainly because I drift off, rather than that the storyline is overly difficult.

One language thing I heard him use today was, a cuerpo de rey (page 33). Anki reminded me this morning that means, "treated like a king". So that was neat.

I watched an interview with the author that seems to be before he finished the book:



But it's interesting. He mentions the dearth of good 19th century Spanish/Latino authors. Gives a thumbs up to Cervantes, Quevedo, and Borges. He also liked 3 works by Neruda. But, those are just "facts". More interesting was his manner and other things he said.

I also read a bit on some historical things that may underlie the story on Wikipedia. I'm one though who generally thinks of the story being the story, rather than the story being something other than the story (symbolic of something else - unless one admits many possible meanings - then I go all in). So maybe we'll help each other find different things from the book.

On the initial 4 characters. They seem quite human so far. Like people Roberto Bolaño could have known or been. :lol:

Since I started over, I'm back on about page 33. As I backed up the recording, a cuerpo de rey magically popped out again. I've stumbled into one of those sentences that AllSubsNoDubs mentioned. It goes on for about 7 pages and finishes days later, half way around the world. :lol:. (take that, Proust).

There's definitely some beauty and depth in that sentence and a complex turn immediately afterwards.

And your mention of re-reading it intensively got me to looking at some of the art of the painters mentioned by Señora Bubis on page 43.
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BeaP
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby BeaP » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:15 pm

luke wrote:I'm one though who generally thinks of the story being the story, rather than the story being something other than the story (symbolic of something else - unless one admits many possible meanings - then I go all in). So maybe we'll help each other find different things from the book.

I've been thinking about this topic lately. Unfortunately I tend to read several books parallel to each other, and I always find a lot of connections. Now, what you've read recently or what you're reading at the same time is of course totally random. Not just your life experiences, but also your recent readings shape your understanding of a novel, so it's basically a 'you can't step twice into the same river' type of phenomenon, which makes the number of the possible interpretations infinite. I'm reading Poeta chileno, which is (surprise, surprise) about being a poet in Chile, and also Abrams and Dorst's S, which is about the investigation of some academics into the life and works of a mysterious novelist. One might argue that I've chosen these books to complement each other, but no, it was pure chance, and I'd even exclude intuition. Maybe literature is not as big as we usually think and everything is interconnected. I like Eco's idea of the opera aperta, which he characterises as a postmodern thing: the contemporary novels don't have a clear and obvious meaning, everything depends on the reader. But I think that the meaning always depended on the reader, and the other books the reader was reading. It's a pity that Bolaño didn't elaborate on the difference between poetry and prose in the video. I didn't really understand what he was aiming at when he talked about the debate with the reader.

I'm continuing the intensive study of the first part, and I've had some pleasant discoveries. I've noted down the new words, and a lot of them turned up again and again. It seems that there are words and expressions that Bolaño likes to use more than others, so we can count on learning at least these. In the meantime I try to force myself to do the grammar study, but it's hard. This book and discussion is much more interesting.

Also picture-googled Grosz because of your remark, and my jaw dropped from his paintings.
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby luke » Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:59 pm

BeaP wrote:I always find a lot of connections.

I like Eco's idea of the opera aperta, which he characterises as a postmodern thing: the contemporary novels don't have a clear and obvious meaning, everything depends on the reader. But I think that the meaning always depended on the reader, and the other books the reader was reading.

I'm continuing the intensive study of the first part, and I've had some pleasant discoveries. I've noted down the new words, and a lot of them turned up again and again.

I'm with you that there are always a lot of connections. If someone said, Cien años de soledad is only about the Latin American struggle with colonialists, or even more narrowly, non-Spanish colonialists, I'd think they were drawing too small a border around the book. (Only mention that because I've heard both).

Good literature is always deeply human and not simply a political polemic (usually, I can think of an exception).

I'm looking forward to my walk and later time with the book to start to piece together this mysterious novel we're reading.

They were NOT the only three words I didn't know in the book, but the only three words I happened to look up yesterday were all coarse. Not pasting them in so as not to sully your log (unless you're curious - I think they are not uncommon - just weren't things I didn't remember coming across before). I mention words because if you happen to have a list, it's likely they'll end up being surprises for me too and I'm sure will be helpful.

Curious if the Italian (Morini) in the wheelchair says that Italian is over-rated. Kidding, there was a thread here a while ago. I did appreciate his dream. I think I'll read it again. (listened the first time).

Today's walk got me to thinking that the characters aren't particularly likeable. Thought that about the characters in 100 years too. Not that none have any redeeming qualities. Just strikes me as perhaps a non-heroism and self-centeredness that may be more common in modern literature.
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby BeaP » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:36 pm

luke wrote:They were NOT the only three words I didn't know in the book, but the only three words I happened to look up yesterday were all coarse. Not pasting them in so as not to sully your log (unless you're curious - I think they are not uncommon - just weren't things I didn't remember coming across before).

Based on my vocabulary from TV series the 4 most frequent (Peninsular) Spanish words (beside articles) are: joder, coño, hostia, follar, gilipollas (in this order). I don't have any problems with having words like these in my log, because they are an important part of everyday language. Spanish people curse a lot. And these words are not as powerful as in other languages. (At least it's my impression.) I'd translate 'joder, coño' for example as 'Oh, well'. Once I had to wait 30 minutes already seated on a plane, and an elegant Spanish man shouted one sentence out of impatience that contained 2 of these 5 words (follar was luckily not one of them). Bolaño was born in Chile, and later lived in Mexico and Spain, so he knows multiple varieties of Spanish. Espinoza probably uses Spanish from Spain, and the Mexican characters will use Mexican Spanish.
I only read Cien años de soledad once, when I was an adolescent. I only remember a few things, and I probably didn't understand a lot of aspects. I haven't reread it yet, because although I liked it, I didn't like it as much as the hype suggested. For me it was too repetitive. I understand that it's a kind of mythology and history repeats itself, but it just didn't wow me. I preferred El amor en los tiempos del cólera, I read that one twice. I agree that the characters are not likeable, but for me the novel has a kind of pleasant atmosphere, maybe because of the slow and calm storytelling, so I don't get irritated by them. I think I like the narrator, he's a likeable character.
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