Trying to take it easy

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thevagrant88
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby thevagrant88 » Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:17 am

Thanks for the detailed post! I flirt with a few languages, but Spanish is the only one I really want to achieve an advanced level in. I have people walk up to me speaking Spanish and I feel so impotent when I miss it or can’t get my thoughts together quickly enough to respond meaningfully. You make this book sound appealing so maybe I’ll go ahead and give it another try.
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luke
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby luke » Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:50 pm

BeaP wrote:
thevagrant88 wrote:How do you like/have you tried the Gramática de uso del español?

I recognised that Gramática de uso has some real advantages for me. The biggest one is the short length of the lessons.

I've also realised that the short lessons help me develop a kind of repetition system (no Anki). I try to do a cycle with every unit:
1. just reading and understanding
2. reading and doing the exercises orally
3. reading and doing the exercises in a notebook
4. reading and doing the exercises in the book itself
5. reading and doing the exercises orally, highlighting the things I still don't remember
6. revise the highlighted things
I can do 2-3 units a day, maybe in different phases.

If I find a new structure in an article or want to check a problem specifically, I don't search it in the book, but on google, and first on the espanolavanzado.com website. I could also cover every gap this way, but I think starting from the grammar book, so going the other way round works equally fine. For example if I study a structure from the book and then read a novel in the evening, I always meet the structure several times in the book. I don't know, I think it just calls my attention more, I recognise it easier because I've recently studied it.

I like your approach and enjoy reading your log.

Your idea of studying grammar in the morning and meeting it "in the wild" later in the day is delightful. It's definitely fun when we come across things in new contexts.

Do you let the various cycles sort of bunch up so by the end of the first time through the book, you've already done most of the cycles for each unit? Or have you eased into the various cycles so there may be many weeks between different cycles for the same unit?
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BeaP
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby BeaP » Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:01 pm

luke wrote:Do you let the various cycles sort of bunch up so by the end of the first time through the book, you've already done most of the cycles for each unit? Or have you eased into the various cycles so there may be many weeks between different cycles for the same unit?


I've started working through the book a couple of days ago, so the system is under fine tuning. So far I think that I'll deal with a unit for a week or two, because there is little information that is totally new. I've already met most of these structures somewhere, just didn't know or recognise the 'rule' behind them. I'm highlighting the very tricky things that I think I won't remember on the long run, and I'll go back and review only the highlighted segments after finishing the book. Or I might stick a post-it with only the key words on some pages, and revisit these later.
I got this idea originally from Assimil, which is a course I don't particularly like. However, I think that the method or the concept itself is outstanding and can be used on other resources with a little creativity. The second option you've mentioned is more similar to the original pacing of the Assimil repetition, but I think in the case of B2+ grammar there is no need to go back to everything throughout a long period, because you don't need to use everything actively. There will be things that I like, and these will simply stick and become part of my linguistic repertoire, so to say. Nobody uses all of the C1-C2 grammar, but we all use all of the A1-B1. I'm also counting on seeing these structures in articles and novels. I'll work with El País articles to improve my vocabulary, and I try to read at least 15 minutes every day before sleep. (At the moment I'm reading Poeta chileno by Alejandro Zambra. It's a great book.)
The key component of this system I'm trying out now is doing the exercises orally, and speaking everything out load. I'll try to increase the speed, and I might prolong the oral phase or do 2-3 rounds orally instead of one. My main purpose is to improve fluency, and I believe that the repetition of good example sentences or chunks will help me in this. I don't think I need to mine sentences myself, I trust the writers. They've done their job, no need for me to spend time writing a curriculum for myself.

I'm planning to post regularly on my experience, and I'm happy to read your opinions as well.
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luke
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby luke » Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:28 pm

BeaP wrote:I'm planning to post regularly on my experience, and I'm happy to read your opinions as well.

I'm happy that you're going to do that.

One other question, if I may. I totally get that the B1-B2 and C1-C2 books are at your level and that you're good enough to use them. As far as deciding where to start, was the B1-B2 book like, I know most of this stuff and just want to improve my fluency. (That is, not a lot of learning taking place, but rather, working on nailing the rules).

I've got the B1-B2 book too, but haven't found space for it yet. I see how taking new approaches can really help with filling of holes. Your's are are probably easier to fill :)

And I feel, "kindred spirit" when I read you're adventures. :)
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BeaP
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby BeaP » Tue Nov 09, 2021 3:59 pm

luke wrote:was the B1-B2 book like, I know most of this stuff and just want to improve my fluency.


Your questions are always welcome. When I've had enough of learning without any rational goal or plan, I downloaded the free DELE exams from the Cervantes site, and did the B2, the C1 and the C2. I didn't only count my points (although that was the most suspenseful I admit), I also tried to analyse my performance. I quickly recognised that I had no problem with comprehension, I passed the reading and oral comprehension part with flying colours on all levels. Even on C2. However, there's a 'tarea' with multiple choice questions, that contains both grammar and vocabulary on B2 and C1, and only vocabulary on C2. I had a lot of mistakes on B2 and C1 (only with grammar questions), and a bit less on C2, which is supposed to be significantly harder. I also tried to do the oral and written tasks, and tried to pinpoint what hinders me in doing the tasks easily and fluently. I've found the following: I don't know the forms of irregular words automatically. I even have problems with the quite basic ones that are usually thought on B1-B2 level. I don't use a large variety of structures, my language output is not of an educated adult, but of a child. So, these are the two problems I have to tackle. As I see it, there are things that you must know on the C levels. That's why I'd like to go through a B book, and correct and learn the small things, verb forms that I don't know. These are the things that are usually asked in a test, so my low performance on B2 and C1 grammar doesn't mean that I speak totally ungrammatically, it's just that I make mistakes that are not allowed any more. If I think outside of the exams, I also see the importance of B1-B2 grammar. The irregular verbs are unfortunately among the most frequent ones, we need them all the time. The same goes for the conditionals, verbs and adjectives with prepositions (like 'investigar sobre' or 'convertirse en') .
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BeaP
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby BeaP » Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:54 am

DELE C2 Prueba 1

I've already done some mock tests from different resources, and I've decided to collect the most important information in my log. The first prueba is divided into 2 parts. Theoretically I have 60 minutes to do the reading comprehension, and after that there is an oral comprehension part that takes 45 minutes. Both parts consist of 3 tasks. There is one booklet for the prueba, so I already have the listening questions on me when I do the reading. It' impossible to do the listening part without reading the questions in advance, so I need to finish the reading earlier, and save time for the listening. The truth is that I'll need to do the reading in 45 minutes so I'll have 15 minutes for one task on average. Why do I need to save 15 minutes for the listening? I don't just have to read the questions, I also have to understand them and remember them, and that takes time. The best would be to learn the questions, but I know that's impossible. Actually even 15 minutes seem very little, but I don't want to risk my reading performance.

Reading tasks
The first task is a vocabulary test, not a comprehension task. I tend to have mistakes in this part, but not a lot. I decided not to do any specific training for this task, because it would take forever to try to learn each and every relatively rare word from novels and academic texts. This task has a bit of a luck component in it, which I hate in exams. I think I'll pass this prueba even if I have 5-6 mistakes here, so I don't really worry. I'll read a little every day, and I'll try to jot down need words in a small notebook, but that's it.
The second task is about text cohesion. Some fragments are missing from a text, and I have to put them in the gaps. Here I need to understand the text, the logic of the argument and the linking words. It also has a little grammar element, some answers are not possible because they'd be grammatically incorrect at a certain place. The third task is classic comprehension. There are 6 small texts followed by 8 statements. I have to connect the statements to the texts, which contains which. Both the second and the third task are very easy for me, but I have a huge problem here, and that is concentration. I tend to make some mistakes because I get bored, I lose the focus, and my mind skips some important information. It also doesn't help that I rush to begin the listening. I'll need to work on concentration.
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BeaP
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby BeaP » Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:08 am

I've done the 2nd reading block from El Cronómetro (p.92-100), that has a kind of lead-in on text types and vocabulary. El Cronómetro is a strange book, because it contains a lot of exercises that make you reflect upon the tasks and your achievement. If you have very little time for preparation it might be better to choose another book that only has mock exams and short pieces of advice. The half of El cronómetro is very deep work on the theory and methodology of the tasks. I know that if you are familiar with a task, it's much easier to do it, so I see the point. However, I think it's so much, dense and deep that a lot of people can get intimidated or confused. These analytical exercises are a lot of times harder than the tasks itself, and they surely require time and concentration.

Takeaway regarding text types and vocabulary:
The texts are either literary (extract from a novel or an autobiography) or very specialised (topic: science and arts). My vocabulary knowledge is sufficient, although there are some fields that are closer to me (e.g. I scored more on the culinary vocabulary than on building a machine). All of the texts are formal, and some are from Latin-America.

Takeaway regarding the test:
Task 1: 12/8 (13 minutes) Just as I've expected. OK.
Task 2: 6/2 (12 minutes) Problem: I felt that the text was extremely easy so I lost concentration. There was a paragraph that I skimmed (!!!!!) instead of reading properly. When I saw and read the solutions, I knew immediately that they were obvious. I can't rush so much. I have to read everything properly and think. It's not that easy. Do I need to change the time frame?
This task is especially tricky because if I put a fragment in the wrong gap, I most probably create another mistake at the same time, because that fragment will be missed somewhere else. Mistakes double here, so I need to watch my moves.
Task 3: 8/7 (24 minutes!!!!!) The texts were extremely similar to each other, I had to concentrate like crazy to be able to make out any distinction. I got bored and tired, saw that the time was up, and lost control. This is a psychological challenge.
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BeaP
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby BeaP » Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:55 am

What I've read in Spanish so far

First I read a graded reader. I don't remember the title anymore, but someone stole a piece of art and it took place in the south of Spain. It was awful. It was like something written by an ambitious pre-schooler. I skipped the young adult and chick-lit phase, because I wasn't prepared for more self-torture. I truly admire those of you who have the discipline to read all that stuff. I know now I'll get an army of enemies but reading Harry Potter or The Little Prince in Spanish didn't even cross my mind.
So I started to search on Amazon and goodreads for the most popular detective fiction, and I managed to read the following books:
Eva García Sáenz de Urturi: El silencio de la ciudad blanca - A typical popular thriller with a cliché ending. Surprisingly good style and some tiny traces of intelligence. Made into an (unwatchable) major motion picture on Netflix since then.
Los ritos del agua - The follow-up novel. Same style, a bit worse. I couldn't read the third book of the trilogy, it was so bad.
Joaquín Camps: La última confidencia del escritor Hugo Mendoza - It started out really well, but the ending was a cliché again. Sometimes it was an embarrassing read, contained the sexual fantasies of an adolescent. Strange, regarding that the writer is an adult university professor.
Carlos Montero: El desorden que dejas - The whole book is a cliché, but it's action-packed and quite suspenseful. (Made into a horrible series on Netflix since then.)
And that was the point when I said that I can't go on. I can't read popular fiction any more, because the 'junk food' is a serious hazard on my well-being.
Rosa Montero: La carne. Ugh. An excellent author if you want to study useful vocabulary. But it's the kind of book that poses as intelligent and of high standard, but in reality it's just linguistically well-formed shallowness. Like a glossy magazine.
So, now I'm reading 3 books at the same time, and I'm enjoying all three of them at last. Maybe I do have discipline if I was able to read through all that and achieve the skills I needed.
Roberto Bolaño: 2666
Javier Marías: Corazón tan blanco
Alejandro Zambra: Poeta chileno
I'll share my waiting list with you in a minute in a separate post.

I came back later to edit this post, as it came too my mind that I forgot to mention 2 books I've read: Victoria Álvarez: Tu nombre después de la lluvia and Contra la furza del viento. These seem chick-lit, but in reality they are adventure novels with a supernatural element. They weren't bad.
Last edited by BeaP on Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BeaP
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby BeaP » Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:14 pm

Spanish novels on my waiting list

Ignacio Martínez de Pisón: El día de mañana
Enrique Vila-Matas: El mal de Montano
Julio Cortázar: Rayuela
Mariana Enríquez: Nuestra parte de noche
Fernando Aramburu: Patria
Antonio Muñoz Molina: Beatus Ille
Juan José Millás: Que nadie duerma, El desorden de tu nombre
Mario Vargas Llosa: Travesuras de la niña mala, Conversación en La Catedral
Juan Marsé: La oscura historia de la prima Montse
Elena Garro: Los recuerdos del porvenir
Juan Gómez Bárcena: El cielo de Lima
Ricardo Piglia: El último lector
Javier Montes: Varados ed Río
Carlos Manuel Alvarez: Los caídos
Juan Bonilla: Prohibido entrar sin pantalones
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AllSubNoDub
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby AllSubNoDub » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:09 pm

So you're reading 2666 after only reading 4 books, one of which you didn't finish, and one graded reader? Or was this just the recent list (you said you've been learning for 15 years)? If it's the former, I would assume you must have read lots of non-fiction, did lots of direct vocabulary study, and/or intensively read/studied the books you have read. How is your vocabulary coverage?
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