Trying to take it easy

[BeaP]

After reading your description, I'm surprised you didn't abandon it, I hope your next book is more upbeat!

I should have abandoned it, you're right. I think I kept on reading because it's relatively short and it's a famous classic. I was hoping that it would get better. It has around 4.2 points on goodreads, and the vast majority of the reviews are positive. It's interesting how differently we can perceive the same book, some other readers were deeply moved by it and rank it among their favourites. Usually it's not a problem for me if a book is sad, but it should provoke thoughts, give some deeper understanding or hope or anything that is a plus.

[MorkTheFiddle]

Book 9: Mario Benedetti: La tregua (200 pp.)First it was just extremely boring, but later it became also one of the most depressing novels I've ever read..

The little bit of Benedetti that I read bored me, too, but I didn't bother to finish. Can't remember what it was.

[BeaP]

I've been reading several books at the same time (which might be a bad idea, but I've always done that), and I haven't reached the end of anything in the past days. Following the recommendation of kanewai I started to read La plus secrète mémoire des hommes by Mohamed Mbougar Sarr. I don't find it particularly difficult, but I don't understand it as easily as Spanish books, I'm always afraid that basic things escape me. When I didn't read so much in Spanish, I didn't have this problem. Yes, things are always relative. In Italian I started the Bufalino (Dicerio dell'untore) again, and failed again. I started to read it in Spanish, but even this way it was a drudgery. So I'm off to Elsa Morante and L'isola di Arturo.

This guy makes very interesting videos on literature, and I've watched his advice on the topic. We'll see if I can regain momentum.


Giving myself a little break from Spanish and studying my other languages was a good decision. It might have even sped things up on the long run. Working on lower levels made me more conscious about active study and study techniques. I realised that I wasn't swimming anymore, but I was floating. Maybe the DELE exam as a goal came up for the same reason, to stop the floating. I remembered seeing a video on this topic some time ago, I went back, found it, and it's great food for thought.


I've finished watching an Italian series (the first series in 2022), Fedeltà. It was sometimes a bit slow, but the emotions felt real, so I enjoyed it quite a bit. It's about a married couple who've both made compromises in their career, lead a routine life, and face the temptation of excitement and change in the form of a relationship. It's based on a novel by Marco Missiroli, and this poor guy has so bad reviews on goodreads, that they've totally put me off. I probably won't read anything by this author, but the series was nice.

[BeaP]

Speaking and the oral exam

I came to the conclusion that the DELE exam doesn’t have a ‘speaking’ part, only an ‘oral’ one, and there’s a world of difference between the two. I’ll try to justify my point in this long post, and also write about the practical aspects: how to develop speaking, how to prepare for the exam. I decided to do the whole thing with English examples for two reasons: 1. Some members prepare for exams in French or German, not Spanish. 2. The base of the preparation is that you need to know exactly what C2 means. If you’re about to reach this level for the first time in your life in a foreign language, it’s good to see in your mother tongue (English for most) where you need to arrive.

A short summary of the DELE C2 oral exam

Task 1: You get some newspaper articles and diagrams about a topic. You have 30 minutes to prepare a presentation based on these resources. You can take your notes into the examination room. The examiner will not intervene unless you go totally blank and can’t continue in any way.

Task 2: You’ll have to answer questions about the topic. The questions are predictable, it’s recommended to prepare for them as well when you build up your presentation.

Task 3: You look at some newspaper headlines with the examiner. You discuss the topic presented.

Where’s the speaking part?

Task 1: You need to give a formal presentation. What actually happens is that you write an article in your head and read it out. It’s a writing exercise that requires the skill of almost automatic writing. How can you train for that? By writing, reading out loud what you’ve written. Next step: skip the writing, imagine that you need to dictate an essay to a high-school student.

Task 2: Again, it’s a writing task. You don’t need to write a full article this time, just a formal comment to an article. You need to take out one aspect, and reflect upon it.

Task 3: Same as 2. The only difference is that in this case you don’t have time to prepare your thoughts. You need to do it at home in advance during your preparation. The topics are all predictable.

I don’t see ‘speaking’ in this exam. Although the exam is oral, it has very little to do with speaking skills.

Fun fact: In the writing exam you might get the task to write a speech that you’ll deliver before a group of parents or neighbours. That speech should be more informal and natural then the one you’re supposed to deliver in the oral exam. For example it should include questions to get the attention of the public, personal opinion, emotions. These things are strictly forbidden in the oral exam.

Is there such things as C2 speaking skill?

Some C-level vocabulary: insatiable, frugal, concoct, philistine, reciprocal, allocate
When and how many times do you use words like these in speaking?

Some C-level grammar:
A lot of linking words: Owing to the financial crisis …
Emphatic forms: We categorically deny …
Some conditional forms: Were it not for the asteroids …

The best thing that illustrates this level is the transformation exercise of the Cambridge exam.

Complete the second sentence so that it has a meaning similar to the first sentence, using the word given.

Celia finally managed to buy her own house after years of saving.
did
Only ………………. to buy her own house.

Nobody could have predicted how quickly the rumour would spread.
speed
The ........................ could not have been predicted.

If you can say the first sentence, you’re fully able to communicate, actually it sounds more natural in speaking than the one you’re supposed to form.

I think it’s a very good idea to check some things in your native language before taking the first C2 exam. Read an article in a high-prestige newspaper, read some canonised literature. Observe the vocabulary and the grammar structures. Ask: Do I know people who SPEAK like this? What’s my reaction if somebody speaks like this? Watch some C2 Cambridge and Oxford exams on youtube. Ask: Is this natural? When would I say sentences like these? If you have a chance, leaf through a C2 English coursebook. It's totally OK if you disagree with me and come to another conclusion, just observe it and think about it.

Speaking as a skill for the most part stops at B2. If you want to be native-like, you need to use B2 speaking automatically an accurately, with good rhythm and intonation. C2 speaking is an artificial thing and should be prepared accordingly. But it won’t take you to native-like fluency, because it has little connection with it. Remember how many times Le Baron has written about people with C2 exams who couldn’t speak?

To be continued ...

[BeaP]

continued from the previous post

How to train speaking alone / How to develop vocabulary

The bottom line is that B2 speaking (actual speaking or communication in situations) is not examined in the DELE C2. If you haven’t learned it yet, there’s no need to worry. You won’t be tested on it. If passing the exam is your only goal, you can even skip it.
By the way, have you learned it? Can you say the following in a foreign language:
‘my shoelaces have come undone’, ‘take an umbrella in case it rains’, ‘this soup tastes bland’?

In theory:
at B2: you’re supposed to be able to talk about any normal topic
at C2: you need to be able to say everything in several different ways

In practice:
The C2 curriculum is totally detached form the Bs. B: practical, informal C: fully theoretical
You don’t need to be able to say everything. Just anything theoretical (in a lot of different ways of course). I’ve given some examples to translate at B2, those were all practical. Contrast them with these C-level expressions: ‘the researchers surveyed students across all campuses and sites to discover the users’ preferences’, ‘A look into the data of temperature increases over the last decade shows the rate of increase appears to be rising.’
It’s a lot more complex linguistically, yes, but not a direct expansion of the B expressions. The soup will never become global warming.

Up to B2 the best thing is to study a textbook series (just one) and do the oral tasks (they should give you a situation you have to imagine yourself in) several times. After that: your best friends are the online dictionaries, because they contain an English translation, pronunciation, example sentences (they show you how you can explain something if you don’t remember a word), collocations, synonyms, antonyms.The example sentences also help you with the grammatical aspects of the word (what follows them in a sentence). Try to transform the example sentence with the synonyms and the antonyms (use NOT).

Keep a notebook or make ANKI cards. There are a lot of possible ways for both, you need to develop your own system by trial and error. Important elements: word, definition, synonyms and antonyms, example sentences, collocations. You can colour code: highlight or write each element in a different colour. (I don’t include a translation, but you can if you want.)

Exam prep: Concentrate on the words you know you need to use all the time in the exam. Have a lot of synonyms for these. Some examples: cause, increase, demand, prove, lead to, urgent, important, understand, realise, process, problem, solve, help.

Do oral grammar drills. Without a need for the exam, choose a B1-B2 book. otherwise, C1-C2.

Choose a topic that you’ve studied and write about it as much as you can. If you’re not sure about grammar, look things up or write the problematic parts in google (3-4 words at one time, not more). But I really advocate CEFR coursebooks. If you study from them, you can check a lot of things in the unit about that topic.

Choose a good newspaper article and summarise it with your own words. Do some kind of transformation: change the linking words, change the verbs, change the adverbs, try to insert at least 3 idioms or proverbs.

Attention! Don’t overburden yourself, especially on lower levels. If you look up a new word that has 10 synonyms (9 of them new for you), don’t put everything on an ANKI card. Think. Bite only as much as you can chew. First your takeaway is only the pronunciation, the definition (it’s always very simple linguistically), the example sentence and those synomys that you’ve already met with. If you don’t like the example sentence, you can check the word in a different dictionary.

Choose a speech or dialogue with transcript. A lot of CEFR coursebook publishers give you this for free on their website. The best ones from this respect are: Difusión , Maison des Langues and Casa delle Lingue. All the same company, actually. In the case of the first two you have to create an account but for Spanish you can download things from Klett’s German site without giving them an e-mail address. It’s totally legal, Klett is an official distributor. One example for Spanish B1: https://www.klett-sprachen.de/aula-internacional-neu/r-1/17#reiter=mediathek&dl_niveau_str=B1
choose: Online-Material/Downloads - Hördateien (mp3s), Transkriptionen
If you make an account on the original sites you can find a lot of videos as well with subtitles. These videos have been made for teaching purposes, so they have some real advantages: useful vocabulary, useful topics, high density. (Choose ‘Digital books and their resources’. Choose the books that are level-appropriate for you. Put them on your list. Go in the book, click a unit, click video.)

Listen to the mp3 and pay attention to the rhythm. Look at the transcription. With a pencil draw a line after each segment, observe where the speaker pauses, what is one element of speech. How can you connect this with your vocabulary studies? Think about collocations. Observe, imitate, observe, imitate. Transform.

[Le Baron]

Attention! Don’t overburden yourself, especially on lower levels. If you look up a new word that has 10 synonyms (9 of them new for you), don’t put everything on an ANKI card. Think. Bite only as much as you can chew. First your takeaway is only the pronunciation, the definition (it’s always very simple linguistically), the example sentence and those synomys that you’ve already met with. If you don’t like the example sentence, you can check the word in a different dictionary.

Yes, I agree. It's quite an obsession really to imagine that you need all the synonyms of a word. I'd challenge the average person to come up with more than 1, 2 or 3 synonyms for words they use even in their native language. I don't know every synonym in English. The facts are that usage is only dictated by occurrence and also that it waxes and wanes even for any person's usages over time.

Some C-level vocabulary: insatiable, frugal, concoct, philistine, reciprocal, allocate
When and how many times do you use words like these in speaking?

I assume this doesn't just apply to English, just that it's in English for the example. However I would use these words normally. They are ordinary words, especially 'frugal' and 'concoct' and 'allocate' which are everyday words were you to be e.g. walking around in the UK. Even if some people might use alternative words/phrases; I'd probably expect 'parcel out' or 'earmark' in common speech for allocate, though it's more common to hear 'allocate' than: designate, distribute or apportion.

This is why I would want to draw a division between so-called 'C2 level' as a perception of 'sounding educated' rather sounding like you're memorising a piece of written material or speaking in an artificially bookish way. And to again contrast this with having a good grasp of common usages at several levels to be able to shift between social 'codes', but also to mix-and-match in order to sound natural. I personally think C2 'level' sold as a defined thing is a scam. That it purports to represent something that is actually the result of long-term and wide-ranging usage and familiarity. Rather than something you can quickly break down, analyse, put back together (or 'reconstruct!) in a relatively short amount of time to get the same result.

It will always suffer from a sort of artificial erudition. From what I have seen in languages I do know well, the materials tend to suggest vocabulary/constructions as being 'educated' which in reality few people really use outside of writing; and even then it can't capture the simple act of knowing the language like a natural reflex.

Whilst all that might appear to be negative and suggest I think people can't achieve mastery and flexibility, it isn't that. It's that I think you can take a language to a certain point (call it 'B2' or 'C1' for vague reference) and that the development from there is extremely personal and wide-ranging and dependent upon what you read and listen to and interact with in person henceforward. That after the initial solid grounding the rest is pretty much immeasurable and many versions are all legitimate.

[BeaP]

I assume this doesn't just apply to English, just that it's in English for the example. However I would use these words normally. They are ordinary words, especially 'frugal' and 'concoct' and 'allocate' which are everyday words were you to be e.g. walking around in the UK. Even if some people might use alternative words/phrases; I'd probably expect 'parcel out' or 'earmark' in common speech for allocate, though it's more common to hear 'allocate' than: designate, distribute or apportion.

Actually these words come from a C-level words list, the source seemed reliable. My goal was to make people think about this question (and possibly inspire a constructive discussion), and I wanted to present enough material to start from, I didn't want people to search for examples for the different concepts, it's time-consuming. I haven't studied English from CEFR books, so I don't know. I'm afraid both of us live in a kind of bubble from this point of view and meet people who are more eloquent than the average. (I often try to dial things down when I meet the other parents in the school, because they might think that I'm pretentious or snobbish.)

What I see is that in Spanish everything I study now can be replaced by something more common. I came to the conclusion that the lack of speaking fluency is not due to the size of the vocabulary, it's due to the size of the active vocabulary, and it's a huge difference. A lot of people aim to learn several thousands of words and think this will make them a better speaker. No, automatising the basics makes you a fluent speaker. A huge amount of vocabulary will make you a better reader and maybe listener. I'm trying to see this from a practical point of view. If a learner can't speak fluently, what should they do? Carry on studying new words? I say it's possible, but in this case check the more common synonyms, the definition of the word, revise them, try to make them active somehow.

What are the C-words good for? They're decoration. Even if I speak in my bubble, I only use some of them. I don't build sentences exclusively from C-words. I think that's what prevents you from sounding bookish and makes you sound natural. That you insert a C-level words sometimes instead of shooting them all at your conversation partner. Even in a foreign language you'll build up your own idiolect and have some favourite words. You don't need to have a huge active vocabulary, but the few things you use, you have to use very comfortably.

[Le Baron]

Actually these words come from a C-level words list, the source seemed reliable. My goal was to make people think about this question (and possibly inspire a constructive discussion), and I wanted to present enough material to start from, I didn't want people to search for examples for the different concepts, it's time-consuming. I haven't studied English from CEFR books, so I don't know. I'm afraid both of us live in a kind of bubble from this point of view and meet people who are more eloquent than the average. (I often try to dial things down when I meet the other parents in the school, because they might think that I'm pretentious or snobbish.)

I'm not trying to be in conflict with you or non-constructive. I have to say that I probably have an entirely different experience and conception of English than you do. Not 'better', but certainly different. For me the idea that English vocab is 'ranked' from reliable lists (and often by non-native speakers/teachers) feels meaningless. They may be C-level for a learner, for an ordinary native speaker they are just words in the normal lexicon. I noticed long ago that depending upon the language a person is learning from the lexicon difficulty as perceived alters. In e.g. Easy Readers made for the Dutch market, words a French or Spanish person would find easy (because of high numbers of cognates among 'high level' vocabulary) are on the 'difficult' list for a Dutch or German learner.
I also come from the working classes, so the so-called 'lower level' language is natural to me and also has a high degree of complexity and creativity in usage, often the source of many idioms and constructions. It's also the meat of the language as it is really spoken for a lot of people. I think this is the same story in all languages and that the learner only really scratches the surface a lot of the time.

What I see is that in Spanish everything I study now can be replaced by something more common. I came to the conclusion that the lack of speaking fluency is not due to the size of the vocabulary, it's due to the size of the active vocabulary, and it's a huge difference. A lot of people aim to learn several thousands of words and think this will make them a better speaker. No, automatising the basics makes you a fluent speaker. A huge amount of vocabulary will make you a better reader and maybe listener. I'm trying to see this from a practical point of view. If a learner can't speak fluently, what should they do? Carry on studying new words? I say it's possible, but in this case check the more common synonyms, the definition of the word, revise them, try to make them active somehow.

I agree with this. I'm not a proponent of artificially-inflated vocabularies, and certainly not as a key to 'advanced fluency'. Fluency is what the word says: a smooth 'flow', like a river, which is not broken by major disruptions. It says little regarding social perceptions of vocabulary complexity.
So yes, I agree with your view that mastery over a smaller number of routine words and constructions is what is required for the bulk of speaking.

What are the C-words good for? They're decoration. Even if I speak in my bubble, I only use some of them. I don't build sentences exclusively from C-words. I think that's what prevents you from sounding bookish and makes you sound natural. That you insert a C-level words sometimes instead of shooting them all at your conversation partner. Even in a foreign language you'll build up your own idiolect and have some favourite words. You don't need to have a huge active vocabulary, but the few things you use, you have to use very comfortably.

Again I'd agree. With one exception: that people have different ideas about what are 'C-words'. Here in NL a lot of speakers of English think they are sounding very technical, with what are actually quite ordinary words for the average native English speaker. Or even words they don't even use. Or people here completely miss very useful words all native English speakers use which would help a lot more with fluency.

I don't consider myself to have an especially 'learned' English vocabulary, I just have the vocabulary of a person of my generation and general education. I've looked at English teaching material (because I've done English teaching here in NL) and I disagree with quite a lot of the words deemed 'advanced' because they are just ordinary words which look advanced to Dutch speakers because there are just more Latin-French derived words in the technical vocabulary, which they seem to think are more sophisticated than straightforward words.

[luke]

If you look up a new word that has 10 synonyms (9 of them new for you), don’t put everything on an ANKI card.

Some C-level vocabulary: insatiable, frugal, concoct, philistine, reciprocal, allocate

I like your presentation! The part I quoted is not, of course, the presentation. Distinguishing B2 "normal speaking" from C2 "academic writing done in speech" is quite insightful.

When and how many times do you use words like these in speaking?

I assume this doesn't just apply to English, just that it's in English for the example. However I would use these words normally.

Philistines like me don't not use "philistine", but two things come to mind on word choice:
1) Some people sound bookish or academic even when talking one-on-one with family and close friends. They are not "putting on airs" or anything like that. For them, it's natural. Think Aspie.
2) Most people do attribute "formality", "uptight" and "higher register" to that sort of word selection. It's atypical for social situations.

This is why I would want to draw a division between so-called 'C2 level' as a perception of 'sounding educated' rather sounding like you're memorising a piece of written material or speaking in an artificially bookish way. And to again contrast this with having a good grasp of common usages at several levels to be able to shift between social 'codes', but also to mix-and-match in order to sound natural.

"Social codes" are easier for some to dodge in and out of than others, even in their native language. I.E., Does someone move easily in and out of various registers as situations change, or do they have maybe 2 registers? E.G., very formal and very informal. There's a lot of space in between, but in the context of "social codes", some may not have trifurcated and further splintered their registers and thereby fit into groups better.

It will always suffer from a sort of artificial erudition.

It's not always "artificial", but your points are well taken.

Whilst all that might appear to be negative and suggest I think people can't achieve mastery and flexibility, it isn't that. It's that I think you can take a language to a certain point (call it 'B2' or 'C1' for vague reference) and that the development from there is extremely personal and wide-ranging and dependent upon what you read and listen to and interact with in person henceforward. That after the initial solid grounding the rest is pretty much immeasurable and many versions are all legitimate.

I agree, but aren't levels like C1/C2 specifically geared for people in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math/Medical) careers and educational settings? Wasn't CEFR designed by our globalist corporate overlords to pigeonhole and plunder the talented? (just kidding)

With academic and technical settings in mind, being comfortable with that speech is often more useful, than things like, "can tell a joke well at the bar and get laughs", "can seduce people", which although very useful, are usually frowned upon in technical settings. They are skills of a linguistic nature. Not all natives have them. Foreign language learners can be challenged even further by social codes and cues.

[BeaP]

Or people here completely miss very useful words all native English speakers use which would help a lot more with fluency.

That's a very important point, I struggle with this all the time. When you're at the lower levels, you need to learn from textbooks or applications. In my experience most of them don't contain enough useful, everyday expressions. You have to mine for them in youtube videos and TV series or you can hunt for a textbook eternally that fits the goal. If you find a textbook with very good dialogues, grab it and listen to everything a thousand times. Problem: If you're a beginner in a language, how do you know which textbook to choose? How do you judge the dialogues? On the other hand, I have to admit that I see a change for the better. Several new textbooks have authentic materials and emphasise the importance of collocations at least.