Trying to take it easy

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3513
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9393

Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby Le Baron » Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:28 pm

luke wrote:I agree, but aren't levels like C1/C2 specifically geared for people in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Math/Medical) careers and educational settings? Wasn't CEFR designed by our globalist corporate overlords to pigeonhole and plunder the talented? (just kidding) ;)

With academic and technical settings in mind, being comfortable with that speech is often more useful, than things like, "can tell a joke well at the bar and get laughs", "can seduce people", which although very useful, are usually frowned upon in technical settings. They are skills of a linguistic nature. Not all natives have them. Foreign language learners can be challenged even further by social codes and cues.

I like this and find it be true as well, even though you added 'just kidding'. :lol:

It's good to try and understand exactly what C2 is designed to provide and to whom. It's why I harp on about it and in particular would say that someone just studying let's say Spanish to be just generally good at all-round Spanish, might well be wasting a lot of time and effort and getting stressed about an exam they don't necessarily need to do, based on the view that 'getting C2' is the key to unlock understanding when you watch a Spanish film or read novels, or do things with Spanish people.
4 x

User avatar
luke
Brown Belt
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:09 pm
Languages: English (N). Spanish (intermediate), Esperanto (B1), French (intermediate but rusting)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16948
x 3631

Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby luke » Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:42 pm

BeaP wrote:What I see is that in Spanish everything I study now can be replaced by something more common. I came to the conclusion that the lack of speaking fluency is not due to the size of the vocabulary, it's due to the size of the active vocabulary, and it's a huge difference. A lot of people aim to learn several thousands of words and think this will make them a better speaker. No, automatising the basics makes you a fluent speaker. A huge amount of vocabulary will make you a better reader and maybe listener.

The old, "lighten up, Francis". :)


And in case it isn't clear, I'm the one who's learning all the synonyms in my Cien años de soledad quest, and who is therefore the figurative Francis.

Sgt. Hulka's follow-up council: "You're all in this together. One of these men may save your life one of these days. You understand that"?

So, with "Lighten up, Francis", Sgt. Hulka is trying to help the young man.
1 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

MaggieMae
Orange Belt
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 11:13 am
Location: Switzerland
Languages: English (N), German (C2), Swiss German (depends on the day), Swedish (A1), Mandarin (Beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=18071
x 610

Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby MaggieMae » Thu May 12, 2022 11:41 pm

I would agree that the "C2" English words you posted are ones that are a lot more commonly used than you'd think.

I did take a peek once at a mock Cambridge C2 Exam for funsies once, and there were words on there that either I didn't know (and I'm a college graduate native English speaker!) or are only read in old or extremely scientific texts. Acetic, probity, specious, and rejoinder would be my examples of C2 English words. They're practically useless, unless you work in fields that use these words (I think probity is used in finance? I actually can't remember what any of these words mean at the moment, which just goes to prove my point.)

You also said it so eloquently, that the C1-C2 Exams were just "designed by our globalist corporate overlords to pigeonhole and plunder the talented?" Yes. You may be joking, but it's probably true.

On a completely different topic, thank you for describing your experiences between C1 and C2. I've never mastered a foreign language before, so knowing that it's the difference between slogging your way through a fill in the blank paragraph (C1) vs knowing automatically a word that should fill in the gap (C2) is extremely useful information to me. I just hope I can get there, too.

Edited because I forgot an end parenthesis.
2 x
Languages: English (N), German (C2), Swiss German (depends on the day), Swedish (A1), Mandarin (beginner)
: 22 / 100 SC Books 22.3/100
: 31 / 100 SC Films 30.7/100

User avatar
Herodotean
Orange Belt
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:55 am
Languages: English (N)
x 906

Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby Herodotean » Thu May 12, 2022 11:58 pm

MaggieMae wrote:I would agree that the "C2" English words you posted are ones that are a lot more commonly used than you'd think.

I did take a peek once at a mock Cambridge C2 Exam for funsies once, and there were words on there that either I didn't know (and I'm a college graduate native English speaker!) or are only read in old or extremely scientific texts. Acetic, probity, specious, and rejoinder would be my examples of C2 English words. They're practically useless, unless you work in fields that use these words (I think probity is used in finance? I actually can't remember what any of these words mean at the moment, which just goes to prove my point.)


It's always interesting how differently native speakers can perceive the same words. My impressions of "acetic" (I correctly guessed what it meant after realizing that my brain had autocorrected it to "ascetic") and "probity" match yours, but "specious" is a word I frequently see in print and "rejoinder" doesn't seem odd to me at all. I might use "specious" in writing, but I probably wouldn't in speech.
6 x

MaggieMae
Orange Belt
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu May 12, 2022 11:13 am
Location: Switzerland
Languages: English (N), German (C2), Swiss German (depends on the day), Swedish (A1), Mandarin (Beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=18071
x 610

Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby MaggieMae » Fri May 13, 2022 12:11 am

@Herodotean

I actually misspelled ascetic, but acetic also fits. I would actually use acetic (though more commonly acidic) more often than ascetic. All of them, however (acidic aside), remind me of old fashioned, formal people. Or just very British, which I am absolutely not and have only BBC America to thank for the little I do know.
3 x
Languages: English (N), German (C2), Swiss German (depends on the day), Swedish (A1), Mandarin (beginner)
: 22 / 100 SC Books 22.3/100
: 31 / 100 SC Films 30.7/100

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri May 13, 2022 10:44 am

BeaP wrote:
Giving myself a little break from Spanish and studying my other languages was a good decision. It might have even sped things up on the long run. Working on lower levels made me more conscious about active study and study techniques. I realised that I wasn't swimming anymore, but I was floating. Maybe the DELE exam as a goal came up for the same reason, to stop the floating. I remembered seeing a video on this topic some time ago, I went back, found it, and it's great food for thought.


This guy is about as nuts as the vast majority of us here. His video is chaotic yet mimics the kind of round in circles, chasing our tail thoughts we often have. Okay, I should be fair and speak for myself. I mean, if you really watch yourself you can notice that you recycle your own thoughts (and drive yourself mad) much more than you realise! I swear, I'm sane. Well, sort of. Hope you are too!
4 x

jeffers
Blue Belt
Posts: 848
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:12 pm
Location: UK
Languages: Speaks: English (N), Hindi (A2-B1)

Learning: The above, plus French (A2-B1), German (A1), Ancient Greek (?), Sanskrit (beginner)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19785
x 2774
Contact:

Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby jeffers » Fri May 13, 2022 11:28 am

Herodotean wrote:
MaggieMae wrote:I would agree that the "C2" English words you posted are ones that are a lot more commonly used than you'd think.

I did take a peek once at a mock Cambridge C2 Exam for funsies once, and there were words on there that either I didn't know (and I'm a college graduate native English speaker!) or are only read in old or extremely scientific texts. Acetic, probity, specious, and rejoinder would be my examples of C2 English words. They're practically useless, unless you work in fields that use these words (I think probity is used in finance? I actually can't remember what any of these words mean at the moment, which just goes to prove my point.)


It's always interesting how differently native speakers can perceive the same words. My impressions of "acetic" (I correctly guessed what it meant after realizing that my brain had autocorrected it to "ascetic") and "probity" match yours, but "specious" is a word I frequently see in print and "rejoinder" doesn't seem odd to me at all. I might use "specious" in writing, but I probably wouldn't in speech.


Interesting. I would consider all four of those words--probity, ascetic, specious and rejoinder--to be fairly common. I wouldn't be surprised so see any of them in a newspaper article, for example. Probity is used in Harry Potter, and I have a vague memory of recently watching some sitcom or cartoon where they kept talking about probity. I specifically remember specious being used in an episode of the Simpsons. Okay, in the latter two examples they were used specifically because they were unusual and some of the humour came from the person hearing the word not understanding it. Lisa told Homer that his argument was specious, and he replied "Thank you". The expectation is that most viewers would at least understand that "specious" wasn't a compliment, but the rest of us are in on the joke. I myself wouldn't use any of these words in conversation unless it was brought up by someone else, but I am definitely not surprised when I see them in print.

Regarding the C2 exams, I agree with Luke's description. The CEFR was specifically designed so that people in academic and/or business contexts would have a common scale for measuring someone's ability with the language. As such, there are some very specific criteria which would not be met by the vast majority of native speakers (assuming the vast majority of people in the world are not university graduates).
7 x
Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien (roughly, the perfect is the enemy of the good)

French SC Books: 0 / 5000 (0/5000 pp)
French SC Films: 0 / 9000 (0/9000 mins)

User avatar
mrwarper
Orange Belt
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:06 pm
Languages: A bunch, in various stages
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... ?TID=39905
x 149
Contact:

Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby mrwarper » Sun May 22, 2022 8:10 pm

Hi! ^^

I just came across a link to your log on another thread, and I thought I would have a look. I didn't intend to participate in the new forum as much as I used to in the old one, but a few things were mentioned here that I would like to comment on, both as a teacher and a CEFR exam taker. As exams go I have also both passed C2 level certification, and flunked lesser levels.

Will be glad to help with Spanish, by the way : )
1 x
MrWarper while HTLAL is offline.

User avatar
mrwarper
Orange Belt
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:06 pm
Languages: A bunch, in various stages
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... ?TID=39905
x 149
Contact:

The 'academic' bias of C levels and exams

Postby mrwarper » Mon May 23, 2022 8:52 am

First, the above. Oh, and (not) losing language skills once B2 is reached:
Le Baron wrote:
BeaP wrote:If I don't use a language, I start to lose it, but according to my experience a C1-C2 language never declines below basic fluency. Unfortunately, a B2 language does.
This does seem to be the case. I don't know how to measure accurately because I think some "B2" speakers living in the country who never opt to pursue further qualifications/tests, also get the language so deeply embedded through usage, that they never really lose it. Maybe experience has shifted them beyond B2.
CEFR C-levels being a continuation of some "natural" scale and somehow the next step beyond the Bs is only a misconception, albeit a very popular one. The same kind of thing as mixing up being certified and functional at some given level, I guess -- if you are certified, that level is only the minimum at which you should be expected to perform. In real life, C levels are aimed specifically "by our globalist corporate overlords" at business, academics and other professional uses of students' TL -- it is not some secret to be realized, unveiled, and/or debated, it is the way they were conceived from the very start.

C levels correspond to
British Council wrote: proficient users of the language, i.e. those able to perform complex tasks related to work and study
and could be roughly defined as "being able to do a series of cognitively demanding stuff, in your TL". A typical example would be sitting through a university-level class in your TL and summarize it decently, taking good notes, etc. Note that flawless use of the TL would definitely help but is not a necessary condition to achieve this. More on that below.

Basically, whether with an adequate level of active practice or not, all the way from A1 up to B2 classes you learn more and more grammar, and expand your vocabulary to accommodate that, simply because that's the easiest way to test your progress. By the time you can get certified at B2 comfortably you should have the whole TL grammar under your belt, and be a truly independent learner on par with native speakers based on that. Except that you will probably (i.e. not necessarily) have a thick accent (because phonetics tend to be completely ignored or neglected), a lot less vocabulary than many (because only so much is needed to master grammar points as covered), and a level of written practice in the order of magnitude of children aged 12, or less. Which is no small order, mind you. You just need to be realistic about what B2 is, and what it is not.

What should people do beyond that point? Greatly build up vocabulary, get practice by the tons, reduce your accent, and generally fill any remaining gaps, anyone? That's what I did. Surprise: getting treated like an equal, getting a teaching certification "because student exams are too easy", passing a C2 exam without even thinking -- all came effortlessly a few years down the road, no immersion needed whatsoever. "All" I did was keep practicing my skills as acquired, and noting what I did right and wrong while using the language for real, in order to progress.

Or, you could just 'move up' right away and enter the wonderful world of C level classes that sadly mostly revolve around exams.

In C exams, candidates making mistakes in speaking or writing that someone sitting for a lower level could make are cut very little slack, which is a good thing when still trying to assess language proficiency. The problem is, other than that, the whole C exam system is bonkers. OK, maybe just a little bit crazy :)

What do I mean? Since B2-level TL command is assumed, the exams focus shift to making candidates do "cognitively demanding" tasks, and assessing candidates' level through use of "new", "C-level" specific connectors and vocabulary. So this is mostly what is taught and done in C level classes, instead of making students go from "B2" to "really solid".

As has been pointed out, what vocabulary is "C-level" exactly is arguable at best, and more realistically nearly impossible to determine, which is a recipe for disaster -- you get passing candidates with gaping holes in their vocabulary (most likely those who train for the exam), and others who get points knocked off for not knowing a few obscure words that happen to be essential to answer some of the questions.

To add salt to injury, candidates who go through past exams for specific certifications (the ones they're sitting for) will likely acquire little new vocabulary, of which 100% is "exam material", and have their marks bumped.

On the other hand, someone who has been using the language for years is more likely not to find big problems in the vocabulary juggling front. Just think: when did you reach the equivalent of B2 in your NL? Most likely around 12, give or take. But you are not telling me you have not improved by leaps and bounds your vocabulary, or writing skills, are you?

Also, tasks that focus on being demanding can be liguistically irrelevant in different ways, or worse. The most prominent example would be multiple choice questions that can be answered without really understanding the base materials, which favors smart candidates that are not necessarily linguistically competent. While this kind of problems is usually made up for by multiplying tasks so that no incompetent candidate can score a good mark by chance, in turn it may harm "good" candidates that will get lower marks out of tiredness, stress, or simple boredom.

So, C level exams favor slightly training for the exam, and aiming at just passing them will probably not make you a well-rounded TL speaker, much less native-like, unless you choose to do the necessary work on your own.

The good news is, C levels also correspond to one of the most credible certifications. Because of the open nature of language (what can you do with what you know?), even imperfect tests can deviate less from proper skill assessment than in other fields, and the less so the higher up the scale you are.

So, why do people think C is the next step beyond B2? I am sure more reasons may be brought up, but I think one of the most important ones is that many "C-level" capabilities, such as e.g. "recognize implicit meanings", are naturally attained by Bers after some maturing (read: profitably continued use). A problem I often see with C1- students regarding meaning is, they tend to take everything literally. This is obviously absurd if you bother to check what you have been doing in your own native language your whole life, but also natural enough a habit to acquire. After all, when you are struggling with some foreign grammar point, should you really care what other figured uses your newly learned vocabulary may have?
5 x
MrWarper while HTLAL is offline.

User avatar
mrwarper
Orange Belt
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:06 pm
Languages: A bunch, in various stages
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... ?TID=39905
x 149
Contact:

More on real levels vs certificates and course books

Postby mrwarper » Mon May 23, 2022 11:34 am

BeaP wrote:And now the million dollar question: Are you a C2 if you pass the exam? Officially you are. That's the point of the whole CEFR system. But passing the exam doesn't mean that you feel comfortable in basically all situations when you have to use Spanish. [...] C1 students can pass if they're well-trained by an experienced teacher.
Exactly. As good as C tests/certifications may be, they are still imperfect, and so they should be taken with a grain of salt. As my Korean TKD master used to say, "so you say you're a 3rd dan black-belt? Come here, and if you can leave by yourself, you are."

To feel comfortable in basically all situations in your TL you basically need to practice basically all situations. Since that is basically impossible, you need to start weeding out what is not really important, or at least what you think is not. A dead easy way to know you took that idea too far is checking whether you basically practice what is necessary for the exam ;)

Striking a balance between what you need to do (ideally replaying whole chunks of your life in your TL) and what you can realistically do is a problem, but I think a good starting point is noting what preparing a test doesn't prepare you for, and work your way up from there.

Meanwhile, sticking to tests and coursebooks...
BeaP wrote:Some people say that at a C2 exam anything can be the topic, but my impression is that there are a very limited number of topics that are likely to come up. Moreover, the topics are the same from B2 upwards, just the questions and the required level of formality and vocabulary knowledge change. I think it's a good idea to collect a vocabulary bank for the various topics, so I've started to do that.
Again, imperfections of exam systems favor smart candidates ;)
BeaP wrote:I firmly believe that the best and easiest way to pass a CEFR exam like the DELE is to work through a CEFR course book. You don't need separate grammar books or anything, just the course book. [...] Unfortunately for me, this only works up to B2. I think it's also OK at C1 if you're an experienced examinee, but there's no way I can pass C2 with one course book.
The problem with course books is that, as you go 'up the scale', several things happen at the same time:

-The ground to be covered grows exponentially in size (i.e. anything ever said or written, by C2).
-Numbers of students go down, and so does the associated profitability for the industry.
-Producing good materials becomes increasingly difficult.

so in the end you may be lucky if you find a C2 course book that covers well a specific certification exam and is not an utter bore.

The reason why there is a clear turning point at B2 again is that CEFR levels up to that point match pretty well what grammar needs to be covered for the next stage, or has been covered so far; but that is everything after B2, so the problem of producing good course books is on a whole new level.

So once you realize C2 course books are no good for you, it is probably time to start practicing for real, and be more demanding of yourself, in the sense of "What did I let pass so far when reading, or watching TV? OK, let's try and do better."
5 x
MrWarper while HTLAL is offline.


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests