Trying to take it easy

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mrwarper
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Advice on acquiring vocabulary

Postby mrwarper » Mon May 23, 2022 3:09 pm

BeaP wrote:This is always a question for me. How many words should I look up? What should I do with them? I'll write down here the chaos that's in my head regarding the topic.

1. Giver of good advice: You've already learned English. How did you gain your vocabulary knowledge? Try to think back, and build on the experience.
Me: As far as I remember I read a lot of books, hardly ever looked up new words, never studied new words intensively. I don't know, after a while they just stuck.
Giver of good advice: So, what's the problem?
Me: As far as I remember, I don't know. These two phrases.
Caromarlyse wrote:I have similar questions for myself about learning vocabulary. I learned French and German in academic settings, not perfectly but to a level where I was able to work in the respective languages. This was at a time before electronic flashcards, and I don't remember even the most dedicated of students ever using paper flashcards. The most anyone did was to go through a list, but even that was only occasionally. So how did I learn? I have no idea!
How did you learn most of your own native language? Why do you think it's different with a foreign one? Do you have the same vocabulary now as you did when you were in high school?

In high school, I had both English and Spanish classes. Our English teacher used to say, "there's never only one way to say something, go read books, and pick up more vocabulary". At the end of each trimester of Spanish classes, we even had to hand in a notebook with all the new vocabulary (along with definitions) we found in our compulsory reads. Neither approach worked for most people back then, but both worked for me because I understood why it was better to amass any new words that came my way.

I am not saying I looked up or wrote down everything, but I sure did when something looked important, and over time I got better at deciding what was actually important in each case (f.e. try to infer words from context and move on vs. being 100% sure by looking them up, what color something may be vs. what someone may be doing). Basically, there was 'important' stuff that I knew would stick, and stuff that wouldn't so I wrote it down.

But as adult learners, a ton of new vocabulary simply does not stick any more like it all used to do, probably because our brains have their own development cycle. Luckily, life has its own way of telling you that some of those bits that didn't stick were important, and that is by shoving them into your face again and again. If you need to look up something for the third time, maybe it's time to wise up and put it on some study list so as to avoid subsequent trips to your dictionary.
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On cursing and swearing

Postby mrwarper » Mon May 23, 2022 3:36 pm

BeaP wrote:Based on my vocabulary from TV series the 4 most frequent (Peninsular) Spanish words (beside articles) are: joder, coño, hostia, follar, gilipollas (in this order). I don't have any problems with having words like these in my log, because they are an important part of everyday language. Spanish people curse a lot. And these words are not as powerful as in other languages. (At least it's my impression.) I'd translate 'joder, coño' for example as 'Oh, well'.
Please don't. It is pretty strong language, although TV writers / makers seem to be hell-bent on normalizing it.

The fact that it was nearly unthinkable to hear any swearing on Spanish TV some time (25 years?) ago has seemingly made many of these monkeys think that it is actually OK, or even a must if you want to look hip and modern. If I bumped into any of them on the streets I would probably punch them in the face.

Sure enough, there's a continuous feedback loop between real life and TV so you never know what things will be like next, but in general I would handle swearing just like some kinds of humor. Everyone curses, yes (yes, even you Flanders out there!), but not everybody will curse in front of anyone.
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby BeaP » Mon May 23, 2022 6:11 pm

mrwarper wrote:I didn't intend to participate in the new forum as much as I used to in the old one, but a few things were mentioned here that I would like to comment on, both as a teacher and a CEFR exam taker.


Thanks a lot for your informative and helpful comments. I agree with all of your remarks, and I'd like to mention some new aspects that came to my mind.

There can be no doubt that practicing the 4 skills in a balanced way is a solid way to C2, but under my current circumstances this can only be done in an artificial way. When I was a university student (literature), I could speak English with foreign professors, hand in assignments in English, and so on. How can I practice speaking and writing in Spanish? I have to look for opportunities, most probably hire someone who corrects my essays and discusses exam topics with me. But I obviously won't do this every day, so the amount of speaking and writing practice will always be smaller. (Comparing this with the acquisition of my native language shows an ever bigger difference.) I think a lot of learners favour reading and listening because these skills are easier to improve as autodidacts.

I'd really like to find a way to complement the italki/skype lessons with useful individual practice. The DELE C2 is just one of my goals, I'd also like to be a competent Spanish speaker. Actually, the latter is much more important for me. Beside working on my own whenever possible, the other important factor for me is time: I'm constantly searching for ways to speed things up. I know that goals for '3 months' and '1 year' are usually surrealistic and can't be taken seriously, but '20 years' seems a little too much.

1. Teaching is the best learning method?
I've heard this piece of advice several times, and I think I understand the reasoning behind it. You have to understand something to be able to teach it, it has to form a structure in your head, and every occasion for presentation is an occasion for active recall. But teaching a language means something more: repeating the same things on all levels (as long as you teach on all levels) over and over again. My theory is that repeating the content of the different levels multiple times leads to an automatic usage of the most frequent expressions and structures. This is similar to practising all basic situations in an immersion environment, because in coursebooks situations usually don't come back on later levels. You go to a clothes' shop at A1 and never again.

2. General language skills mean too much at the exam?
In the thread where I've linked my log I've also written about my Goethe C2 sample exam results. My level is not higher than B2, and in the reading comprehension part I've achieved 29 points out of 30. This is ridiculous. One possibility is that the exam itself is very bad at determining your level, the second possibility is that exam skills are the most important, and the third possibility is that the knowledge of general linguistics helps so much that even with less studying, vocabulary or practice of the skill comprehension is almost perfect. I wonder what role these general skills play in language learning and exam success, and if I had a lot of free time, I'd probably experiment with different types of texts in German.

3. What should a C2 textbook include?
I haven't seen a good book for exam preparation so far, although I think it wouldn't be difficult to write one. (I find it annoying that they don't include sample answers for the essay questions for example.) A lot of people say that C2 is easier than C1 and I tend to agree. The DELE C1 also tests informal language, while C2 is only formal. You just have more information to remember (from the texts you get on a given topic), put in a structure, analyse, compare, draw conclusions from. So the general, academic part is more difficult. The language part is actually easier. I understand that language teachers are not enthusiastic to write materials that develop these skills.
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Re: some new aspects

Postby mrwarper » Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:20 pm

Thank you for your kind words, but let's try not to agree excessively, or discussions may become a bit dull ; )

BeaP wrote:[...] no doubt that practicing the 4 skills in a balanced way is a solid way to C2, but under my current circumstances this can only be done in an artificial way. When I was a university student (literature), I could speak English with foreign professors, hand in assignments in English, and so on. How can I practice speaking and writing in Spanish? I have to look for opportunities, most probably hire someone who corrects my essays and discusses exam topics with me.
But most people will learn in a somehow artificial environment, and won't be balanced in their practice, for different reasons -- I certainly wasn't / am not. Students can write and speak, but how much will they read or listen? Especially, how much that is related to their studies vs. unrelated stuff will they do? Do most expats really need to write much? Etc., etc.

Most people benefit greatly from skill transfer, though. How much can you improve an active or passive skill without advancing its counterpart too? And we're not discussing Japanese, so how much better can you get at speaking and listening without getting any better at reading and writing too?

Bottom line: being balanced is obviously better, but being unbalanced is probably less severe than it looks.
But I obviously won't do this every day, so the amount of speaking and writing practice will always be smaller. (Comparing this with the acquisition of my native language shows an ever bigger difference.) I think a lot of learners favour reading and listening because these skills are easier to improve as autodidacts.
So, back to practicing speaking and writing with minimal interactions with live people. Well into the twentieth century as we are, technology makes this easy. Choose a prestige model to take after: a writer, a speaker, an actor, a specific character as played by some actor, you name it -- you just need to take someone that will say or write things you are interested in, the way you would like to be able to. Try and predict what this person will write or say, and how exactly. Shadow him or her. If necessary, take notes, wait a bit to forget the details, and recast chunks or the whole thing. Compare, noting the differences with the real stuff, and try to make yourself sound more like that next time, rinse and repeat -- you will improve : )

I'd really like to find a way to complement the italki/skype lessons with useful individual practice. The DELE C2 is just one of my goals, I'd also like to be a competent Spanish speaker. Actually, the latter is much more important for me. Beside working on my own whenever possible, the other important factor for me is time: I'm constantly searching for ways to speed things up. I know that goals for '3 months' and '1 year' are usually surrealistic and can't be taken seriously, but '20 years' seems a little too much.
Leaving aside how much DELE C2 and being a competent Spanish speaker overlap, '20 years' sounds as unrealistic as '3 days' to me. As long as you can avoid being too ambitious, 3 months is a much more reasonable time frame to check whether you are making any advances in the right direction for just about anything that takes some time (losing weight / getting in shape, generally developing a skill?).

1. Teaching is the best learning method?
I've heard this piece of advice several times, and I think I understand the reasoning behind it. You have to understand something to be able to teach it, it has to form a structure in your head, and every occasion for presentation is an occasion for active recall. But teaching a language means something more: repeating the same things on all levels (as long as you teach on all levels) over and over again. My theory is that repeating the content of the different levels multiple times leads to an automatic usage of the most frequent expressions and structures. This is similar to practising all basic situations in an immersion environment, because in coursebooks situations usually don't come back on later levels. You go to a clothes' shop at A1 and never again.
This is debatable. Teaching something should generally mean you really understood it in the first place, if done properly (recommended: check How to solve it by George Polya ;) so it is a good way to make you learn (the best? wouldn't be sure) but I don't think it will help you get better past reaching some fluidity and automation, especially if repetition would play a large part on your teaching. Languages are essentially about reusing what you learned -- to express new things.
2. General language skills mean too much at the exam?
In the thread where I've linked my log I've also written about my Goethe C2 sample exam results. My level is not higher than B2, and in the reading comprehension part I've achieved 29 points out of 30. This is ridiculous. One possibility is that the exam itself is very bad at determining your level, the second possibility is that exam skills are the most important, and the third possibility is that the knowledge of general linguistics helps so much that even with less studying, vocabulary or practice of the skill comprehension is almost perfect. I wonder what role these general skills play in language learning and exam success, and if I had a lot of free time, I'd probably experiment with different types of texts in German.
General language skills should speed up learning new languages, but it is debatable how much people develop them: I have been asked to teach "how to summarize Spanish texts" to adults, and some other nonsense. Shouldn't people know how to do all of that, if they can do it in their native language? Well, there's no difference in a foreign one! Assuming good candidates have bothered to really develop these skills in a reusable way, all they need is good enough vocabulary to understand everything and express themselves as desired / required. I have just ended helping a good English C2 candidate get the practice she needed, but I wouldn't say she has "learned" a thing.

Clear enough as the above looks to me, your perspective can certainly be undermined and distorted by bad exam design. A million years ago, it feels, I took a B2 German exam at the local official languages school while a friend took an English B2 one, and we compared them thoroughly afterwards -- they were the same "level" only in name, because of how marks were given. In theory no B2-level learner should be able to score high marks on a well-designed C2 exam generally, but you also need to keep in mind that if the main difference between levels past B2 is vocabulary (didn't we agree on that?), the occasional C2 perfect mark is indeed possible for the right "B2-level" candidate that has matured enough. I would check more sample exams before coming to a conclusion on a particular test.
3. What should a C2 textbook include?
I haven't seen a good book for exam preparation so far, although I think it wouldn't be difficult to write one. (I find it annoying that they don't include sample answers for the essay questions for example.) A lot of people say that C2 is easier than C1 and I tend to agree. The DELE C1 also tests informal language, while C2 is only formal. You just have more information to remember (from the texts you get on a given topic), put in a structure, analyse, compare, draw conclusions from. So the general, academic part is more difficult. The language part is actually easier. I understand that language teachers are not enthusiastic to write materials that develop these skills.
I would say that any perception of C2 being "easier" than C1 stems from it being generally just a harder version of something previously seen, whereas C-level exams may (and often do) encompass activities new to people used to B2 and lower level exams. As regards writing a good book for exam preparation, we could go on all day -- perhaps we could consider making some money while we are at it : p
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby BeaP » Wed Jun 08, 2022 10:01 am

Book 10: Jaume Cabré: Yo confieso (859 pp.)

This novel, originally written in Catalan, is considered a modern classic by a lot of people, something on par with Ferrante's Naples books. Well, we see a pair of boys (friends) from their childhood to their old age, and one of them might be a genius.

MINOR SPOILERS COMING UP!

Yo confieso is a very strange novel: it's written by an ageing professor who suffers from Alzheimer. The whole book is like a whirlwind of memories, stories once read or made up by the professor. Things get mixed up in his mind, similar characters are drawn together in one shape, one story. 'History's always repeating itself' and 'people are basically the same'. The professor is extremely sentimental and imaginative, the book is often an extreme (even irritating) melodrama. He's also a language enthusiast (speaks and more importantly reads like 15 languages), so words and sentences in foreign languages are not rare, and we also get some interesting musings on language learning. He's also well-read, and we get a lot of references to world literature with some verbatim quotations like the first sentence of Cien años de soledad. Pedantry, pompousness or an extra feature to show that everything is connected? We decide. I didn't take it in a negative way, I thought it was a try to show how a certain person's mind is made up, what influences it, how the cultural effects, the family environment and life events shape a person's thinking. The professor is not perfect, actually he's very far from it, but if you don't confuse him with the writer, things are OK and most of the time interesting. On top of that, he doesn't like computers so he asks his best friend to type the novel for him. So we don't know if the friend has changed some things in the text or not.

The main topic of the book is evil, sin, remorse (personal and historical), punishment and making up for the pain one has caused to others. It's heartbreaking to see how the professor blames himself for things that he couldn't have prevented, how he's incapable of living with this burden, and how he's trying to correct his mistakes even in the most stupid and desperate ways imaginable. Ecce homo. (Bulgakov's Pilate also appears, with the headache.) Are we responsible for the hurt we cause or are we just victims of coincidences? What are we as persons in the carnevale crowd of history? Interesting questions with emotionally effective answers abound in this book, although sometimes it seemed too long, and there were parts that were not so good as the majority.

The language is not very difficult (B2), although some stories from the past contain rare words (C1-C2). But the whole books is composed of very short pieces that are constantly swirling one after the other, so a more difficult part is shortly followed by an easy one. Some find it hard to read because of the constant change in the time, the story and the characters, but I think in this case you really need to take thing easy, and you might not need to be always precisely conscious of the details of the stage. The structure has probably a lot to do with music, but I know very little of that area. Anyway, it's an ideal book for a degree essay or a PhD, as it's full of things to analyse.
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby Dagane » Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:45 am

Szia! Írok egy logban itt, de nem láttam az tiéd. Általánosan nem vagyok a forumban túl gyakran. Király, hogy magyarul beszélsz.

Me alegro de que aprendas español, que es mi lengua materna. Espero entrar un poco más a menudo y seguir tus estudios.
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby BeaP » Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:58 am

Updates on Spanish
I've regretted learning through input almost exclusively a million times. In a way my brain is convinced that I'm finished, and I feel a constant urge to move on to another language. Although I still like working on speaking and writing, the joy of exploration is absent in my routine, and I miss a lot of things that I love about language learning. I'm sure I will succeed somehow, but I needed to plan things again, because I want to get back the pleasure.

I decided to dedicate as much as I can to Spanish every day and spend some time on one resource of French. (Italian would be a complete self-sabotage from the aspect of the DELE.) I'll try to be very cautious, or at least do it a bit better this time. Small problem: I've already watched the first season of Dix pour cent. It's clever and hilarious. I've looked up some new words, and again I feel that my passive vocabulary is pumping up like a balloon.

I try concentrating on one resource (C de C1), because my experience is that using multiple resources (this can mean googling as well) increases the time spent on a language a lot. And the improvement is not necessarily better because of the time factor. I need to see quick results to remain motivated.

My French journey so far
I don't really like the French language, although I like the country and the people very much. I didn't plan to study French, but I accidentally bumped into a French in Action video, and ended up watching mot of them multiple times. I have the first workbook, but I haven't done the exercises in it, I've only worked with the videos, the transcription and the audio. For me French in Action is the best language learning programme ever made (with Access to English as a close second). Just paying attention to these videos and doing the repetition exercises with the audio made me an independent learner (I think that's the main goal of the programme), I speak confidently, with limited vocabulary, but relatively well, I understand most TV series and can read popular fiction. This is genius (not me, Capretz), I've reached every goal of a beginner resource with the videos and the audio only.

Other resources
I have a lot. I'm not a fan of consumerism and I always buy the things I need when I realise that I need them. The only exception are books, language learning materials and boardgames, which I tend to hoard. So for every holiday I ask something from these three categories. During the years I've collected most CLÉ books: they look very funny on the shelf, because I have some from every edition (older/more recent). I have some CEFR coursebooks as well, but although I still think these are the best for an exam, I don't really like using these type of resources, because they're huge and full of unnecessary and useless stuff for an autodidact. I'm not planning to sit the DALF/DELF on any level. I'm just planning to improve my French and avoid the mistakes I've made with Spanish. So I've started to work through the books (one at a time). I go very quickly (obviously, because I've started from the beginner level), but revision is useful. I see that a lot of gaps get filled.

Advantages of CLÉ books: small (B5, 100 pages), short units (2-3 pages), full of information, few pictures, effective exercises, to-the-point explanations

Planned order of the first round:

Phonétique progressive débutant
Grammaire progressive débutant
Comprehension orale A1-A2
Communication progressive débutant
Vocabulaire progressive débutant
Expression orale A1-A2
Expression écrite A1-A2

If I manage to slow down the input, and work diligently with the books, I think my productive skills can keep pace with the receptive skills. I'll use Comprehension orale for speaking training as well, because it contains excellent dialogues. I'll write a short review of these books whenever I finish one.

This is where I'm at: https://issuu.com/marketingcle/docs/phon_tique_progressive_du_fran_ais_a1

If you scroll down and click on 'marketingcle' under another book proposed from them, you can see a sample from other CLÉ books.
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby Le Baron » Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:15 pm

BeaP wrote:Updates on Spanish
I've regretted learning through input almost exclusively a million times. In a way my brain is convinced that I'm finished, and I feel a constant urge to move on to another language. Although I still like working on speaking and writing, the joy of exploration is absent in my routine, and I miss a lot of things that I love about language learning. I'm sure I will succeed somehow, but I needed to plan things again, because I want to get back the pleasure.

Amazing. It's like you read my mind. I've put more into (audio) input for Spanish than any other language I've learned. I've needed to resume some organisation and planning to, like yourself, rediscover..retrieve the pleasure of learning.

I keep seeing this praise of French Of Action, which I've never seen and which is not of much use to me I'd imagine, yet if there was an analogue for this in Spanish I could just get on with it from a single resource (and maybe a little grammar book) and find focus again.
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby DaveAgain » Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:38 pm

Le Baron wrote:
I keep seeing this praise of French Of Action, which I've never seen and which is not of much use to me I'd imagine, yet if there was an analogue for this in Spanish I could just get on with it from a single resource (and maybe a little grammar book) and find focus again.
Isn't Destinos the Spanish equivalent?
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Re: Trying to take it easy

Postby Le Baron » Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:50 pm

DaveAgain wrote:Isn't Destinos the Spanish equivalent?

Are you asking me or telling me? :D
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