Herodotean's log (Latin, Greek, German, Spanish, etc.)

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Herodotean
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8–14 January 2023

Postby Herodotean » Sun Jan 15, 2023 4:34 am

Latin (reading) Super Challenge: 30 pages gained (now 427 behind)
Greek (reading) Super Challenge: 11 pages gained (now 470 behind)
Output Challenge: 612 words this week, mostly Latin (230 words behind)

Latin
  • Apuleius Metamorphoses 5.14–7.14 (~50 pages)
  • Pugio Bruti (a few chapters)
  • Gasparri, Catechismus Catholicus (a few pages)
Greek
  • Plato, Protagoras 352a–end
  • Chrysostom, Homilia in Matthaeum 6 (second half)
  • Chrysostom, Homilia in Matthaeum 1 (a few pages)
  • Gospel of Matthew (a few chapters)
  • Arrian, Anabasis Alexandri 4.1–9
German
  • Some WDR Reisen YouTube content with subtitles.
Spanish and everything else: pretty much nothing this week.

Linguistics
  • Gussenhoven and Jacobs 2017, Understanding Phonology (4th ed.), Ch. 1 (“Structures in Languages”). Do any phonetics/phonology textbooks actually teach IPA instead of assuming you can magically look at the chart and know it? This book was talking about obstruents in Chapter 1 and using IPA symbols before discussing such things as place and manner of articulation. The terrible phonetics course I took a decade ago did a similar thing: step 1 was a few lectures (with far too many rabbit trails on creaky voice) and step 2 was transcribing the speech of someone from the north of England who was virtually impossible to understand. Scaffolding is important in course design, folks.
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MorkTheFiddle
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Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
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Re: 8–14 January 2023

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:05 pm

Herodotean wrote:Scaffolding is important in course design, folks.
Well said! :)
Edit 1 time to reinsert a ']'
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Herodotean
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Re: Herodotean's log (Latin, Greek, German, Spanish, etc.)

Postby Herodotean » Mon Mar 06, 2023 5:18 am

Recently my motivation for language study has dropped to about zero. The reasons were partly personal, partly tracking fatigue thanks to the Super Challenges, and partly a major research project that will need all the attention I can give it for the next few months (it involves my Super Challenge languages, but not exclusively, and I'm no longer reading large amounts of primary sources for it). Since I was hopelessly behind on the reading for the two full SCs -- without even attempting the audio -- I have converted each of them to a .75 Super Challenge. Assuming I finish, that's still a total of 1.5 reading SCs; each will require 6 pages a day instead of 10; and the change to .75 means I'm actually ahead on both.

There aren't many signs of life in the Output Challenge, but I don't think it's dead yet. We'll see.

I'm investigating postdoc opportunities abroad. The chance to live in a target language country would be a real shot in the arm. I don't even much care whether it's a language I've already studied. But that, if it ever happens at all, is probably two years away at the earliest.
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Re: Herodotean's log (Latin, Greek, German, Spanish, etc.)

Postby Herodotean » Mon Apr 10, 2023 8:41 pm

After my last post, motivation for language learning stayed at zero for some time. It's been a difficult winter in more ways than one.

But with the advent of spring, I feel some sparks of interest in returning to my old habits—both language learning and physical exercise.

So here's the new program:

Latin
  • Finish the “Erzählende Prosa” section of a Latin literature anthology I found on Google Books (Florilegium Latinum, Teubner 1911–12). It has four parts: Drama (vol. 1), Erzählende Prosa (Vol. 2), Epik und Lyrik; Fabeln (Vol. 3), and Rednerische Prosa und Inschriftliches (Vol. 4). So far Vol. 2 has introduced me to choice bits of Ciceronian invective I might not otherwise have encountered for some time. To follow: Vitruvius Pollio, Valerius Maximus, Seneca, Pliny the Younger, Aulus Gellius, and Apuleius. I have no acquaintance whatsoever with the first two.
  • Continue reading Mézard’s daily meditationes (1906) selected from Thomas Aquinas’ works. These are 3–4 pages each, keyed to the liturgical year.
  • Read and take notes on Spevak 2010, Constituent Order in Classical Latin Prose. I’ve meaning to read this for years now.
Greek
  • Read 2–3 pages of Plato daily and catch up on my grand scheme to read all of Plato by 2025.
  • I will probably start (re)reading Chariton’s novel Callirhoe in Sanz Morales’ recent edition (Heidelberg 2020).
German
  • I should continue reading Seewald’s life of Benedict XVI.
  • I’ll be reading the odd academic article or two (currently reading I. Hadot 1997, “Geschichte der Bildung; artes liberales”).
  • I have acquired Huttner’s 2013 volume on ancient Rome (Römische Antike), which is well reviewed on amazon.de. I’ll start that at some point!
Italian
  • A few weeks ago I started Dante again, using Nembrini’s edition (with a wonderful prose paraphrase in modern Italian and sparse notes) and Blanc’s 19th-century Vocabolario Dantesco. I hope to continue (though reading the Inferno seems better suited to Lent, now over, than Easter).
Spanish
  • Not much.
French
  • Perhaps I’ll return to Han d’Islande.
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Herodotean
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Re: Herodotean's log (Latin, Greek, German, Spanish, etc.)

Postby Herodotean » Tue Aug 01, 2023 5:28 pm

I see that in my last post I referred to "the new program." Ha! That didn't last very long.

Although I'm on the verge of giving up on tracking altogether, I still have a shot at completing my .75 reading Super Challenges for Latin and Greek (at 9 pages per day for Latin and 11 for Greek). The 2023 Output Challenge is also feasible (barely), at 300 words per day. But "the [Super Challenge] was made for man, not man for the [Super Challenge]." I don't have the motivation, however, that I had a year ago, and I have many more competing priorities. Plato, at least, is still very doable: even after all my neglect, I still need only 2.3 pages per day to finish the complete works by 2025.

Overall, after over a decade of study, I'm rather disappointed with my skills in my main foreign languages (Latin and ancient Greek). I'm not sure what to do about that.
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MorkTheFiddle
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Re: Herodotean's log (Latin, Greek, German, Spanish, etc.)

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Fri Aug 04, 2023 6:51 pm

I would love to give you some good advice, but I don't have any. :(
Good luck.
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lichtrausch
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Re: Herodotean's log (Latin, Greek, German, Spanish, etc.)

Postby lichtrausch » Fri Aug 04, 2023 7:15 pm

Herodotean wrote:Overall, after over a decade of study, I'm rather disappointed with my skills in my main foreign languages (Latin and ancient Greek). I'm not sure what to do about that.

I've had moments like this, and my solution has been to put all but one language on the back burner until I am satisifed with that one language. Becoming an expert reader (assuming that's your goal) in both Latin and ancient Greek is an enormous task after all.
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Herodotean
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Re: Herodotean's log (Latin, Greek, German, Spanish, etc.)

Postby Herodotean » Sat Aug 05, 2023 9:53 pm

Thanks, Mork and lichtrausch.

Paul Nation’s 2014 pamphlet on language learning (PDF) has been posted here a few times. About a year ago, I downloaded it, glanced at it, and put it aside. But I’ve just now finished reading it properly, and I think I’ll be using Nation’s “four strands” as a framework. Here they are:

1. “learning from meaning-focused input” (listening and reading)
2. “learning from meaning-focused output” (speaking and writing)
3. “language-focused learning” (deliberate study)
4. “fluency development (getting good at using what you already know)”

Because ancient Greek and Latin are literary languages, I am interested most of all in reading them well. I also, however, want to have the best productive skills that I can (in part, but not entirely, because I think productive skills reinforce one’s reading ability). Looking at Nation’s four strands has helped me see a problem: for years, despite paying lip service to productive skills, I have focused on #1 and 3, and even in #3 I’ve used a very narrow range of activities. So I need to either change my goals or change the way I allocate my time.

In the past couple of days, thanks to Nation, I’ve done two things I don’t normally do. First, I used delayed copying with two passages of Latin (read a passage, understand it completely, and then copy it out a phrase at a time without looking at the original). Second, I tried to recall as much of the first passage as I could while on a walk. I had no phone, no copy of the passage; all I had was my memory. I was pleasantly surprised to find I could remember quite a bit, much more than I could have after reading it without copying it. Delayed copying followed by intentional retrieval hits strands 3 and 2, respectively, and it's simply fun.

To help keep track, I might resume regular entries here, organized according to the four strands.

Another practice to change: for years I have read multiple books at a time. More recently, I think that’s gotten out of control: I start more books than I finish and so deprive myself of the satisfaction that comes with finishing books as well as the learning benefits that come with reading a single-authored work in its entirety. The Super Challenges have encouraged me in this bad habit, since they created an incentive to read about the same amount in Greek and in Latin every day and to always be reading at least one easy work in each language to make the daily page count. (But even that eventually became too much.) Recently I read an entire book in English in about 5 days – I'm sorry to say that's unusual for me – and enjoyed both the immersion in a single subject, while it lasted, and the satisfaction of finishing a work while I still remembered its beginning. For that reason, I’ll still read something in Greek and something in Latin simultaneously, but I’ll pick one of them to finish as quickly as possible while reading only a page or two per day of the other.

I'll check back in after a week or so.
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MorkTheFiddle
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Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Herodotean's log (Latin, Greek, German, Spanish, etc.)

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Aug 05, 2023 11:33 pm

You've taken up a solid, promising set of goals.
Myself, I mostly neglect Number 2, speaking and writing, because a lack of feedback leaves me clueless whether what I am saying or writing is correct. There is no iTalki for Ancient Greek for for Latin that I know of.
Anyway, I wish you well in your plan.
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luke
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Re: Herodotean's log (Latin, Greek, German, Spanish, etc.)

Postby luke » Mon Aug 07, 2023 5:32 pm

Herodotean wrote:Overall, after over a decade of study, I'm rather disappointed with my skills.
Herodotean wrote:I think I’ll be using Nation’s “four strands” as a framework. Here they are:

4. “fluency development (getting good at using what you already know)”

I have focused on #1 and 3.

To help keep track, I might resume regular entries here, organized according to the four strands.

I'll check back in after a week or so.

I'm looking forward to see what you decide to do with this conundrum. I'm particularly interested in how you'll decide to approach strand #4.
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