Re: Yuurei's Language Log (ZH, KO, FR, JA, ES) [Now with more LR]

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Yuurei
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Re: Yuurei's Language Log (ZH, KO, FR, JA, ES)

Postby Yuurei » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:07 am

jeff_lindqvist wrote:
Yuurei wrote:B1 listening and B1 reading - a bloody good result, in my eyes, after only 30 hours(...)


Wow. Impressive and inspiring. Just a minute ago, I posted a link to the good old Accelerated Finnish challenge (HTLAL), which seems to have taken the learners to A2 in 35 hours. B1 in 30 hours isn't bad, in fact it's a lot better! I knew that there was something about that LR method.
Heh, thanks. ^^#
I don't think the two are very comparable though, since for me Italian was a closely related language, whereas I don't think the participants of the Accelerated Challenge knew any closely related languages to Finnish. I doubt I would have gotten B1 after 30 hours for Finnish. :)

Christi wrote:Wow, you seem to be doing very well, good job!

Thanks for posting the links to the novels. Will take a look.
Would you also mind sharing where you found that manga in Korean? I am also looking for enjoyable things to read but most fun things seem too difficult :lol:
Thanks. :D
I bought the manga from ridibooks (Link), a Korean ebook store. It's all in Korean, of course, but I found signing up and buying the ebook a very straightforward process. They don't do paypal, unfortunately, but they accept foreign credit cards without a problem (just make sure to check the 'overseas credit card' option for payment - 해외 발행 신용카드). Oh, and you need to use their ebook app in order to read the manga, but it's available for most platforms and the ios app, which I use, was even available in my local appstore - no need to change to the Korean store.

They also have a "look inside" feature that lets you read the first couple of pages, which is great for figuring out whether the manga is at the right level for you, so you don't have to buy it blind.

If you're interested in checking out other manga, the best way to find Korean versions that I've found is to look the series up on Wikipedia in a language where you know the title (e.g. English) and then switch Wikipedia over to Korean. Then you can use the Korean title to look it up on ridibooks.

Elenia wrote:What a great result! Good write up as well! I look forward to doing some LR myself - I'm planning on beginning with some for Iguanamon's FLC :D
Et tu, Elenia? I swear everyone suddenly seems to be doing the FLC challenge. Am I the only one here who likes to spend money on language learning? I mean *coughs* XD What do you plan to LR? Pride and Prejudice?
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Re: Yuurei's Language Log (ZH, KO, FR, JA, ES)

Postby Yuurei » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:08 am

And thus ends my lovely sejour in Italy. I had a lot of fun, even though the weather wasn't exactly ideal.

Weekly Goals for Week 9 (2018) - All done \o/
Chinese
*Finish reading Can I dance with you? (CB level 1)
Legend: RB: Rainbow Bridge; CB: Chinese Breeze

Korean
*Study grammar sentence deck (at least 5 days) [7 days]
*Finish reading Major Vol. 1 (2 chapters)

French
*80 minutes of AV [Grimm S4 ep. 10-11]

Japanese
*Read 20 pages [ねじ巻き精霊戦記 天鏡のアルデラミン #1]

Spanish
*40 minutes of AV [Buffy S2 ep. 15]

Other stuff I did:
Chinese: Studied some pages of After the accident (CB level 2).
French: Watched Grimm S4 ep. 12-16.
Spanish: Watched Buffy S2 ep. 16.
Italian: L2R2'd 3 hours of Harry Potter e il prigioniero di Azkaban & listened to another hour. Watched Avatar ep. 3-4 and Black Panther. Read 347 pages of Il trono di ghiaccio. Spoke a lot of touristy Italian.

Italian
I got a Lonely Planet Phrasebook for Italian prior to leaving and used it to learn all the phrases I thought I might need to get by in Italy, which worked out surprisingly well. My rather good passive skills made learning the phrases a cinch and also allowed me to more or less easily make appropriate substitutions - not to mention allowing me to understand what the other person was saying. :lol: I thus managed to actually use Italian for all my touristy interactions, like checking in and out of the hotel, ordering food, buying stuff, asking for directions etc., which was a lot of fun! About half the time the interaction was completely in Italian, the other half the Italians would switch to English half-way through (mostly triggered by the presence of my friend who doesn't speak Italian, it seemed), but I never let that deter me from speaking Italian to them, and quite a few times people got the hint and actually switch back to Italian for me. :D
Obviously my speaking skills were very rudimentary and whenever some new interaction loomed I would mentally prepare the sentence(s) I was going to use beforehand, but it was nonetheless an amazing feeling to get through all my touristy needs speaking only Italian.
My friend also actually offered to go to the cinema with me, even thought it was all in Italian, and so I ended up watching Black Panther in Italian, which was quite enjoyable - and surprisingly easy. Besides that, I spent quite a bit of time browsing bookshops. XD
Suffice to say, I am ever so glad I did my Italian experiment before going to Italy - and that it worked out so well - because I don't think I would have enjoyed myself even half as much if I hadn't known enough Italian.
I also read my first novel in Italian - Il trono di ghiaccio (engl. Throne of Glass), which I finished yesterday. It's a YA novel, so nothing too difficult, but not a children's novel at least. It wasn't really difficult, per se, but I did end up looking up quite a few words. The novel itself was pretty disappointing, unfortunately.

So, all in all that was a lot of Italian and that was definitely fun, but I still don't know where to go from here. :?



Weekly Goals for Week 10 (2018)

Chinese
*Study 12 pages of CB level 2 reader #2 (After the accident)
Legend: RB: Rainbow Bridge; CB: Chinese Breeze

Korean
*Study grammar sentence deck (at least 5 days)
*Read 2 chapters of Major Vol. 2

French
*80 minutes of AV

Japanese
*Read 20 pages

Spanish
*80 minutes of AV
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Re: Yuurei's Language Log (ZH, KO, FR, JA, ES)

Postby Elenia » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:52 pm

Yuurei wrote:
Elenia wrote:What a great result! Good write up as well! I look forward to doing some LR myself - I'm planning on beginning with some for Iguanamon's FLC :D
Et tu, Elenia? I swear everyone suddenly seems to be doing the FLC challenge. Am I the only one here who likes to spend money on language learning? I mean *coughs* XD What do you plan to LR? Pride and Prejudice?


Baaaahouais!
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Re: Yuurei's Language Log (ZH, KO, FR, JA, ES)

Postby RMM » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:25 am

I just read your posts about your Italian L-R experience. Very interesting! I’ve done a similar thing with Harry Potter 3 in French (starting from below A1). I think the method is great for rapidly learning to recognize cognates and similar grammar in related languages in a fun way. I definitely don’t know any Romance language to C1, so I didn’t get as much of a benefit from language similarities as you did, but I was still pleased with the results.

I hope you don’t mind, but for comparison’s sake and just to get more info out there on the method, I’d like to mention how this went for me. After L-R’ing Harry Potter 3, my passive vocab went up tremenously, while my listening comprehension started to develop a proper foundation. From past experience with L-R’ing, I feel pretty certain that if I L-R around 2 more audio books in French, I should be at a level where I can begin extensive listening as an efficient learning method. (Languages become more fun for me once I reach this level and can learn a lot just from watching movies and shows.) More significanly, in a short time, it got me to a point where I can read extensively for the gist without looking up words.

I think my reading was especially helped by doing a run-through using the French text *after* first going through it with my native English. This was the main way that what I did differed from your experiment. This allowed me first to learn the meanings of new vocab I was hearing based on the English text and then to follow that up by seeing how my new vocab words looked in print. This dual audio and visual encoding (and the simple repetition) of the French words helped me to keep them in my memory better I think. L-R’ing it in English first made the French text much more comprehensible during my second run-through of the book without a lot of guesswork required. Understanding my target language text without so much effort also, I think, freed up more of my attention to focus on spelling and how the written word is correctly pronounced. And I've found that with more advanced languages, this is a good stage to read out loud with the audio book as a way to help activate my new knowledge.

At any rate, I think it’s great that you found the L-R method so useful and are helping to spread the word about it. I look forward to reading about any future L-R experiences you may have. (If you don’t want to wait to start a new language, you could always keep L-R’ing Italian--I find L-R’ing is an easy way to pick up vocabulary even at the B1/2 level.)
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Re: Yuurei's Language Log (ZH, KO, FR, JA, ES)

Postby RMM » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:30 am

Looking at my previous post now, I hadn't realized how long it had gotten. Sorry for practically writing an article on your log!
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Re: Yuurei's Language Log (ZH, KO, FR, JA, ES)

Postby Brun Ugle » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:45 am

Those are fantastic results for so little LRing. I’m very tempted to try it myself, but with which language? Hmmmmm. It would be interesting to see how it would work with a completely unknown language......
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Re: Yuurei's Language Log (ZH, KO, FR, JA, ES)

Postby Yuurei » Wed May 09, 2018 9:52 am

Man, I cannot believe that 2 months just passed by like that. Was kind of lacking in motivation and ended up doing pretty much no language stuffs in the mean time. :oops:

RMM wrote:(If you don’t want to wait to start a new language, you could always keep L-R’ing Italian--I find L-R’ing is an easy way to pick up vocabulary even at the B1/2 level.)

It's not that I don't think that would be helpful, but Italian is just not a very important language for me right now, so I'd rather concentrate on other languages. It was mostly relevant back in February because I wanted to cram some Italian into my mind before going to Italy and so it made a great candidate for my experiment. XD
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Re: Yuurei's Language Log (ZH, KO, FR, JA, ES) [Now with more LR]

Postby Yuurei » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:43 pm

Hey everyone, long time no see!

I started spending more time on other hobbies this year, and somehow language learning fell a bit by the wayside since spring. ;__;
On the plus side, I don't need to write a lot in the way of updates of what I did, language learning-wise. ;D

The only language I studied and used a bit was Japanese, really, where I actually ended up taking the JLPT N1 at the beginning of the month. I won't know the result until around the end of January, but I'm pretty sure I passed (even though I didn't manage to study even one-third as much as I originally wanted for it XD), so that'd be at least a small success. ^^"

I also continued my weekly French movie nights, and that's about it.
But of course I didn't return here with empty hands, but rather with a new LR project sorry for the wall of text:

Chinese LR Experiment

Preamble
I really want to make some progress in Chinese again and I really want to give LR another, more extensive, spin, so Chinese LR seems like the perfect way to combine those two things. As opposed to my Italian experiment, I already have some previous knowledge of Chinese, but I consider that a good thing, because I think doing LR "from scratch" for an opaque language like Chinese would be more trouble than it's worth. I think there are quicker and less painful ways of learning the basics of a distant language, although ymmv.

Materials
I've got the perfect materials already prepared: one of my all-time favorite novels, which is originally Chinese to boot, "The King's Avatar", features a rather literal English translation and an audiobook version. The novels is long (published in 19 volumes in Chinese) and hasn't been fully translated yet, but the first 1381(!) chapters have been translated, which equates to over 200 hours of audio. Yep, I should be all set with that. Since I've already read the novel (or well, the first ~1060 chapters anyway), I've also already taken care of step 1: know your source material.

Setup
Another difference to the Italian experiment is that this one will run for quite a bit longer. 30 hours wasn't a lot to begin with and for Chinese I expect to need longer to get results. but since my chosen novel has over 200 hours of material, it shouldn't be a problem. Since I'm not in a hurry and am unsure of how much time is needed, the experiment will be open-ended. In general, the whole experiment will be somewhat more lax than the Italian experiment, for a variety of reasons. I will, however, endeavour to work on it regularly, so as not to leave any large gaps that will impede the learning progress. But as before, while I acknowledge that LR probably benefits from consecutive work over several hours, my job and other commitments don't allow for that, so I have to make do with a somewhat modified version for corporate slaves. D;

Evaluation
One thing I don't have a satisfying setup for is evaluation. Unfortunately there is no Dialang test for Chinese and I don't know of a comparable test I could alternatively use. (If someone knows of one, let me know!) All that's left then is the natural listening test, but that's sadly not as objective as I'd like. :( I'll do my best to report on my progress to make up for it.
I will be using the DLIFLC ODA Listening test to evaluate my level before and after the experiment.
I scored at the lower end end of ILR 1 (comparable to CEFR A2) in the pre-test.

Method
This time I will skip the L2R2 step because
a) it didn't seem as useful as L2R1 last time (except for learning to read with good pronounciation) and
b) it would be a pain to try and do with Chinese.
Thus, I will only be doing L2R1 for this experiment. Naturally, this means that if the experiment works well, my listening comprehension would far exceed my reading comprehension and I'll have to do something to remedy that afterwards. I might do L2R2 to that end, or I might do something else, but in any case it will not be part of this experiment.

Previous knowledge
Since there is no good before-after evaluation, as mentioned above, here's a short self-evaluation of my current Chinese skills: I dabbled in Chinese a bit in winter 16/17 (doing the first 6 chapters of New Practical Chinese Reader), before finally putting in some real effort last winter for (checks log) about 4 months, during which time I read (& listened to) 18.5 low-level graded readers. Having done basically no Chinese since March (;__;), my current status is still at approximately a level where I can understand Chinese Breeze lvl 2 (500 words/characters) readers with only a little effort (although reading is easier than listening). For Rainbow Bridge Readers, the Starter level (150 words/characters) are rather easy, but the level 1 (300 words/characters) readers would require me to look up quite a few words to understand. Sad, but true. So, I'm somewhere in the advanced beginner range, still far off from understanding audiobooks or dramas, but I do know a lot of the basic grammar as well as some vocab and expressions...

Expectations
I'm not expecting some magic pill that will make me understand all Chinese, of course. But then again if I invest some 200 hours (or more) into a study method, I'd expect to make significant progress with most methods. Whether LR would beat other methods in efficiency is something my experiment is unlikely to show (I think), but I think it can be a good indicator of whether or not it's efficient enough to be worth my time. So, expectations: If, after about 200 hours (~1300 chapters), I could stop LRing and just continue listening to the audiobook for the remaining ~400 chapters of the novel, I would consider the experiment a success. Staying within the realm of this novel, there will be a lot of repetition of vocabulary and even whole phrases, so if I learn something from LRing, this should naturally be possible. As for understanding other audiobooks, I think it would depend on the semantic similarity to TKA. I wouldn't expect to just be able to follow another audiobook after 200 hours, but who knows?

TL;DR:

Open-ended Listening-Reading experiment in an opaque language (Chinese)

DLIFLC ODA pre-test listening: ILR 1 (comparable to CEFR A2)
Time frame: 20.12.2018 - tbd
Actual learning time: tbd
LR Material: The King's Avatar / 全职高手 (Runtime: >200h)
Learning method: Listen to the audio while reading along in English
DLIFLC ODA post-test listening: ???

Edit: Added evaluation information and summary.
Last edited by Yuurei on Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Yuurei's Language Log (ZH, KO, FR, JA, ES) [Now with more LR]

Postby rdearman » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:01 pm

Two questions.

Where did you get this book? "The King's Avatar"

and

People have hobbies other than learning languages?
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Re: Yuurei's Language Log (ZH, KO, FR, JA, ES) [Now with more LR]

Postby Brun Ugle » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:10 pm

This is exciting. I love a good experiment. It will be really interesting to see what kind of results you get with a fairly opaque language.
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