Expug's 2021 Log - Language learning is dead, long live language learning!

[Expugnator]

Hey guys!

it took me so much time before I could finally take a breath and get down to writing here so I could put things in perspective.

I am still working from home, and now the idle time I had for language learning has been converted into working as a translator. I am relatively new to the profession, so I am learning to balance life-work the hard way. Luckily things have been so intense that after a hectic month of July I have entered August with a better sense of perspective on how much I can take in terms of work.

Language learning has been sharply restricted. I spend 1-2 hours max on apps, which are mostly Busuu and Duolingo. I don't have the time for desk study anymore but I think I might soon add at least 30-min/1-hour of textbook study for one new opaque/one or two transparent languages. I haven't abandoned my goal of 30 by 2030, and while I'm currently 3 language behind I do have some 3 or more in the A2ish range I didn't have before the pandemics, and which need an Assimil round + one series with subtitles for activation. My optimal methods which are double subtitles and parallel listening-reading are less practical now because they involve taking a break from everything else and setting up the computer which also has a smaller screen. It can still work for languages such as Chinese, I just have to find the time for watching anything non-work-related again.

I don't have any specific goals for the rest of the year, but I decided to report on where my languages stand:

Thriving languages: those are languages for which I have a continuous workflow and/or are somewhat inserted in my routine and which have showed progress since the pandemics.

Norwegian: My favorite language is the one I listen to 12 minutes of podcast to every day. I have no students right now but I might resume one or two classes. I have translated subtitles for my favorite series plus a great reality show and I hope the demand continues. I have no goals of translating literature so far, which means I should get back into reading-listening if I want to keep improving. My listening skills are probably B2 now, my speaking and writing are not far behind and reading is way into the C's. I write rather often (to my standards) on WPP and IRC. Not to mention that I have learned quite a bit about life in Norway and so I'm allowing myself to let go of the impostor syndrome.

English: supposedly the highest demanded source language for translation but not so in my case. My English is not that of an experienced translator but I don't see a horizon of improving specifically, for example, my writing skills so that I can offer translation into English. It is a procedure which is typical of the Brazilian market and which I'm not very fond of, because one should translate into their native language. I need to improve my knowledge on the terminology for the specific areas I want to work on, which are IT and Marketing. That can be done through reading, which I should resume at least by 20 pages a day when I get things on track.

Spanish: I don't actually present myself as a Spanish translator, but I had a sudden demand for subtitling novelas, and now the language plays a big role. This happens more often than not with me on translation. I think I'm not par to a task and then I take a test and I pass and the project managers start sending me work. I'm looking forward to attending a course specifically on Spanish translation which is held by a very competent Brazilian translator.

Mandarin Chinese: another example of the above. I am translating chapters from a novel published within an app. They wanted explicitly HSK4 translators. I am learning a lot. I've also started taking classes with a Brazilian friend from the Polyglot Club, and I noticed considerably improvement in speaking. B2 doesn't seem that far away anymore.

Italian: I'm having classes every fortnight which I alternate with Portuguese in a tandem way (btw, whoever is learning Portuguese and wants to try this format for one of my languages feel free to PM me). I don't have translation demand but sometimes I read a bit in the language.

Esperanto: I'm attending weekly classes with a group of other diligent intermediate students. I'm activating the language more than I thought I would.

German: I figured out almost by accident that I can make a good German translator. Brazilians who know more German than I do sometimes have trouble deconstructing the German sentence and rebuilding a natural Portuguese one. I don't have a steady workflow, and I would love to do subtitling, but I've been having good feedback from my translation work. I need to incorporate it to my routine through podcasts for example, but Norwegian keeps taking precedence.

Surviving languages:

These languages are not decaying but not considerably improving either. They suffer from the lack of proper desk study (even if trough watching or L-Ring).

Russian: it could be a thriving language if I had translation demand. I'm slowly moving through Busuu and learning important vocabulary.

Guarani: I am about to finish 5 crowns for the Duolingo course. If I could be active on Whatsapp languages through speaking, I'd be actually making progress. Now I'm slowly advancing in the A2 stage.

Catalan: also improving a lot through Duolingo. I still haven't been through a textbook but I mention it because it's a but I'm learning enough from Duolingo and the occasional words on WPP. Should also benefit from extensive listening and reading.

Papiamento: my only contact is a WPP group. The teacher hasn't been so active but the students, most of which live in the ABC islands, write quite often.

Greek: the little Duolingo I do is enough to learn vocabulary and keep the language alive, but I need to reach a level at which I'd be able to translate from Greek if I wanted to stand solid in the B levels.

Indonesian: Duolingo crown system has come in handy for Greek and Indonesian because I keep reviewing vocabulary that otherwise I wouldn't run into anymore, and I am also forced to write in the language.

French: the French translation marketing is of fierce competition and mostly literary translation. I have great colleagues from translation but I'm not actively seeking for work in French, and I'm not using the language through reading or watching either. I do some volunteer work now and then and since I have a higher level I wouldn't say the language is decaying, but it's not thriving either.

Decaying languages:

Those radioactive isotopes seem unlikely to survive the lack of external energy and decay layer by layer. It's sad to even write about them.

Hebrew: I can't study as much Duolingo on a day to do Hebrew lessons, despite it being a reputedly good course. Duolingo has too steep a learning curve.

Georgian: I have no translation demand for it and I still can't read the language comfortably to allow for extensive reading. I know a very good teacher and I want to take some classes. It's probably cheaper than my Mandarin language and I'm at about the same level for both languages, so why not? (Who could ever think I'd fall into classes as a lifeline?).

Estonian: after the conversation sessions sponsored by the Estonian government, I totally dropped the language. No app learning (I'm extremely frustrated with Speakly after completing it and retaining so little thanks to the loose sentences without translation). No translation demand, though in the case of Norwegian if I had near-native English skills I could find demand for technical, commercial texts from those languages. So, Estonian is decaying.

New languages:

Turkish: finally it happened! I really love this language. About to defeat Hebrew as the language I like to study the most (Norwegian remains an all-time favorite non-native language). If I ever get back to my 30 minute-desk study, Assimil Turkish is a must after a good grammar-translation intro. I know a great Turkish-Portuguese translator and I wish I could subtitle Turkish novelas. I'm studying through Busuu and Duolingo on a daily basis. I'm impressed at how good the Duolingo course is, and it's also thanks to the crown system, because the first crown was way over my head and it wasn't worse because I'm used to postpositions and SOV thanks to Georgian. Btw, the past in Turkish reminds me of imperfect in Georgian.

Swedish: solidly doing my Duolingo lessons. Next desk study slot will go for an Assimil round, the same way I did with Spanish and Italian. Having Swedish counts as a transparent language is also a proof that I did well with Norwegian, and it's a great sense of accomplishment. I'm really looking forward to learning more about the Swedish culture, society and institutions. I wonder what they are doing right.

Finnish: it beats Estonian thanks to better resources. I might do the same with Finnish x Estonian which I did with Norwegian x German. I improve Finnish and then I go back to Estonian one, two CEFRs above and learning will then be smoothier as the language will be closer to transparence. Finnish has Assimil (two new editions or just a reprint?!), Speakly (which might be easier now) and Duolingo which is what I'm actually using and which works great with the crown system, though it doesn't take you that far.

It's great to be back! I don't promise to report that often as my work will be limited to what I've mentioned, hopefully with some additions. Still, I'm confident I can put language learning back into a more balanced life.

[Expugnator]

I had a productive week at work, not quite so regarding language learning. Still attending Italian, Chinese and Esperanto classes. Making slow and steady progress in Norwegian. I broke my own record of Chinese characters translated yesterday, and I am glad it's going smoothly.

Still waiting for better options to pursue languages I haven't been doing much for lately. I have dropped Clozemaster for the time being, and I'm frustrated with how few languages Busuu has. That's what keeps me so dependent on Duolingo. I tried Babbel and Lingualeo, and found them too phrasebookish. Busuu has a too steep vocabulary curve but at least it has dialogues and translation. My false beginner Russian and Chinese seem to benefit from the approach.

[Expugnator]

Time for an update!

Still trying to enrich my portfolio in translating from Chinese. I have been learning a lot. Classes have also been going well.
Will resume Norwegian lessons, a new class. Heaven knows what awaits. I am most likely going to use a new textbook.
French is totally out of my radar. It has turned into a bridge language. Only a source of material. Like English was before I started translating professionally.

My written English might actually be eligible for some translation when a native speaker is not mandatory, after some improvement of course. I have seen some work from colleagues who regularly translate into non-native English and I don't think I'm that far from what is acceptable in the market.

This week I was better organized with work, didn't bite more than I could chew (there wasn't much to bite from anyway, as the Norwegian subtitling projects seem to have come to an end). I did more Duolingo and Busuu. I noticed that the language I work on regularly on Duolingo does improve. I'm hopeful about Romanian and Modern Greek.

I have just been wondering about how far one can go with the odd 10-15 minutes a day on apps that draw from a limited pool of sentences. It is the good old sentence method, but my learning routine has also built on contextual learning. Short textbook lessons (Assimil) and native materials were a huge part of my learning. For the languages I can't work on this now, I keep wondering how far I can go with limited resources such as Duolingo, even when overlearning it as I'm clearly doing with languages such as Guarani and Finnish. While I do learn different layers and nuances from those sentences, I still hold that every communication is textual.

I ran into a new app, Falou. I'm impressed. They have Croatian, Vietnamese, Swedish. I chose advanced Norwegian and I was presented a lesson on a job interview that was imponerende. The translation is way better than Busuu. I quickly mailed them asking if they'll be adding new languages, and I might go premium next week. "Falou" means "you spoke!" or "goodbye" in Portuguese. While it's marketed as a speaking tool, it's the good old context-rich set of dialogs with audio and translation. More authentic to Assimil than Assimil itself. Being as an experienced learner, I don't need much grammar, I can infer a lot just from context. It's been working with Turkish on Duolingo and Falou also has Turkish, so I'm kind of starting to build my own rotational approach on apps instead of textbooks. I used to employ two textbooks at once for an opaque language as a beginner for synergy, and now I can try it with Duolingo, Busuu and now Falou.

It doesn't have Hebrew, though. I haven't found an optimal app for Hebrew yet, something I can combine with Duolingo that goes too fast on Hebrew. Clozemaster Hebrew is good, but oh Clozemaster. I'll see what I can do.

As a matter of fact, I need to find 6 hours a week of desk study if I want to learn new languages and not just maintain half the ones I have while dabbling in others. I know, it's much less than the previous 40 hours, but one shouldn't forget that 1) I will be improving B2+ languages at work itself and 2) I want to learn 1 language up to A2 per year, and I am already dabbling into 5.

Would be glad to hear from other learners how they find that mystical 1-hour of desktop learning a day and when it's the best time. I can't stress out too much on a textbook because I work on text during the day and I need to keep my mind sharp so I can find the best solutions. OTOH, end of day might be too tiresome for thoughtful language learning. Maybe somewhere in the middle of the evening, before or after a snack break, when work quota is close to be reached for that day would be the best bet.

I can't believe I wrote that much. It might be a given. Even though I'm learning much less I keep reflecting upon the process.

[Expugnator]

A quick update: I haven't found time for any desk study at my routine, so Duolingo remains my sole contact with new languages. I have been steadily improving my German, Russian, Mandarin and Spanish as new jobs come, I've been taking Esperanto, Italian and Mandarin classes and giving Norwegian classes. Estonian, Georgian, Hebrew and now Guarani are decaying like carbon 14. Indonesian and Greek are barely maintained through an occasional Duolingo lesson (which are more frequent for Indonesian, but on the other hand the Greek ones are more demanding).

Both German and Mandarin have a solid translation market in different areas. If my Mandarin level were higher I'd basically be able to work in two of the trendiest translation areas (video game localization, subtitling).

[PeterMollenburg]

Would be glad to hear from other learners how they find that mystical 1-hour of desktop learning a day and when it's the best time.

From my experience, learning in the morning has always suited me and as you seem to indicate is similar for you, I struggle to advance a lot without dedicated 'desk study time' as part of my routine. However 'desk study' for me nowadays comprises of a multi-track approach given my French is well beyond intermediate - intensive reading, extensive reading, series with transcripts, translation work, grammar review or study and writing.

I've gone through periods in which I would aim to get all of my study done in the morning as that suited the routine and lifestyle at the time. Now I struggle for time at home often but have more time at work (and utilise breaks) and might do some more study upon returning home, although I struggle with motivation in the evenings and often resort to just watching something on Netflix (better than doing nothing!). Given my new routine (no day is ever the same due to shift work at multiple locations) has me usually spread my learning throughout the day it's likely much better in fact than doing it all in the morning as the time between study sessions is less - a bit like spaced repetition.

The days I study in the morning at my desk (between one and three hours) I have a lot of motivation. Sitting down at my desk and studying in an evening after a busy day (that's every day for me), I do it begrudgingly, i.e. I don't enjoy it much at all.

Sometimes I have resorted to 5 am starts at my desk but that seemed unstainable. 6am is doable but not always and it depends on what time of day I'm working.

...It's interesting to hear about your translation/interpreting ventures and I encourage you to keep sharing All the best with it all Expug!

[Expugnator]

Quote PeterMollenburg

Post by PeterMollenburg » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:22 pm

Great to hear from you, PM! I'm not active at the forum anymore but it's so nice to see the old people thriving.

Translating and freelance working in general is very challenging. It takes time till you get used to your daily productivity and realize how much work you can take if you still want to have a life, weekends and evenings. On top of that, a steady job and kids. I have to make my work fit at 6 net hours a day but I took a test at a random day last week and at 4h30 PM I had managed to work only 4 hours so far. But it's fascinating to be working in so many different projects and languages, and to improve with time and be valued for your experience without the typical ageism you see in other careers. The drawback is the intense and unjustified pressure on rates which makes it difficult to work on the field while living in an advanced economy. In Brazil we benefit from the exchange rates, but even so it's saddening to see how many people stand between the end customer and the translator and take nearly all of the income sometimes just by forwarding some emails.

Apart from work, I'm also attending a Degreee on Translation and some other general courses. I might have more time once I'm done with the degree, so maybe I can fit in a couple hours or two for language learning.

Studying so many languages for so long allowed to endure long hours of technical + creative work, and I tend to apply similar principles to language learning. I work in 2-3 projects at a time and I switch when I notice performance is lowering. Usually a technical one (mostly German) and a more creative one (literary which is usually Chinese chick-lit or subtitling from English and Spanish).

I forgot to say that I've noticed some progress on Duolingo so far. I do Turkish and Catalan almost everyday, Finnish 5x a week (though the course is too short), then Swedish which is a great course, 4x a week, and when I have time I do Greek and Romanian. Indonesian and Dutch come next, 1-2 a week. I always follow this sequence except for when I do some Norwegian reviewing. I usually do two Duolingo lessons per language (and I still dislike it how lessons can be so long, definitely not the short-break activity).

[StringerBell]

Hey Expug! Nice to see you around

I find it interesting that you get such good results with Duolingo - do you do anything in particular to get the most out of it (like say things out loud) or do you use this app the way everyone else probably does? I seem to remember that you used to use Clozemaster (though I don't remember if you mentioned Memrise). Is there any reason you're only using Duolingo right now?

[Ogrim]

Great to see you here again Expug. I've been missing your contributions. I hope you won't abandon us totally but that you will keep posting here from time to time. You have always been an inspiration.

[iguanamon]

I've missed you around here. Looks like you are happy and doing what you have wanted to do... and that makes me happy too. Good to see you back posting again, even if only sporadically! Não deveria surpreender-me mas, vc tá até ensinando norueguês?! Nossssaaaa!!! Espero que tudo vá bem com os seus estudos e com a sua familia. Até a próxima, tchauzinho.

[Expugnator]

Hey Expug! Nice to see you around

I find it interesting that you get such good results with Duolingo - do you do anything in particular to get the most out of it (like say things out loud) or do you use this app the way everyone else probably does? I seem to remember that you used to use Clozemaster (though I don't remember if you mentioned Memrise). Is there any reason you're only using Duolingo right now?

I just follow the crown system. That was a game changer for me with Duolingo. I have enough repetition but not exactly the same sentences (you have listening, speaking out loud, reordering words, filling in the blanks) and that motivates me more than plain SRS. It's more convenient than Clozemaster because I see the same words more often as the pool of words to draw from is more limited. I basically ditched Clozemaster.

Great to see you here again Expug. I've been missing your contributions. I hope you won't abandon us totally but that you will keep posting here from time to time. You have always been an inspiration.

You are actually one of my greatest sources of inspiration, Ogrim. I do hope to keep coming back.

I've missed you around here. Looks like you are happy and doing what you have wanted to do... and that makes me happy too. Good to see you back posting again, even if only sporadically! Não deveria surpreender-me mas, vc tá até ensinando norueguês?! Nossssaaaa!!! Espero que tudo vá bem com os seus estudos e com a sua familia. Até a próxima, tchauzinho.

Obrigado, não quero perder o contato com os amigos. Mesmo não estudando línguas integralmente como antes, agora as línguas são mais do que nunca parte da minha vida. Só espero conseguir alcançar o equilíbrio. Até mais!