Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

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luke
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Mon Nov 01, 2021 12:26 pm

32 - 32 - 32
Hike! (Guess who's got the ball!).

I finished FSI unit 32 yesterday. Wrote out the reading/writing exercises and have already started, you guessed it, unit 33.

Not tracking everything on the outside, but here are some progress bars:

: 15 / 20 Cien años (5x)
: 250 / 533 Vivir para contarla
: 32 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish Sequential
: 48 / 55 FSI Dialogs (2x)
: 36 / 55 FSI PoP (Illustrations)
: 26 / 49 FSI Replacements
: 8 / 45 FSI Variations
: 3454 / 9794 Anki 5000 - mature cards
: 149 / 417 Anki el_quijote - mature cards - from the Anaya books
: 1369 / 7245 Anki FSI mature cards
: 2962 / 3000 3000 pages - started counting June 14, 2021

Waxing philosophical
I started watching Cuervos on Netflix. It's a 4 season Mexican drama around a brother and sister inheriting a football (soccer) team. Seems useful on the colloquial speech side. Most of the Spanish speakers around where I live have a Mexican dialect. Have only watched about 1 episode.

I've been taking walks, often twice a day and listening to Vivir para contarla for the last week or two.

Found the channel Lengua y Literatura · Cursos y Monográficos, this morning. Somehow it was more interesting than NetFlix.
6 x

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AllSubNoDub
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby AllSubNoDub » Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:44 pm

luke wrote:32 - 32 - 32
Hike! (Guess who's got the ball!).

I finished FSI unit 32 yesterday. Wrote out the reading/writing exercises and have already started, you guessed it, unit 33.


Do you have a breakdown of how you're working through the FSI units? What constitutes 'complete'? I'm not questioning your judgment, I'm actually just wondering how to work through it best myself when my schedule opens up. I don't want to just trick myself into thinking I "finished" it or, conversely, waste my time going deep into diminishing returns. I felt like I did the latter for the portions of FSI Basic German and Spanish that I did do; the original point was to overlearn, but even that can be taken to an extreme.
1 x

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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Mon Nov 01, 2021 3:29 pm

AllSubNoDub wrote:
luke wrote:I finished FSI unit 32 yesterday. Wrote out the reading/writing exercises.

Do you have a breakdown of how you're working through the FSI units? What constitutes 'complete'?

'Complete' varies a bit depending on the track, but sticking to Sequential FSI:
  • Have I memorized the dialog, meaning I can repeat the whole thing pretty much correct at least once from memory? (not working on memorizing them long term at this point.
  • Can I do the drills correctly without much effort? (not always perfectly and with perfect ease, but a pretty high standard).
  • Do I have the Conversation Stimulus memorized for a bit? (also have "can repeat" and "can follow the prompts either easily are pretty easily" style drills - multiple recordings for these drills.
  • Have I read the readings? Usually read them more than once on different days, building up momentum for the written portion.
  • Have I written out the responses to the readings in full sentences?

I generally have a day or maybe two where I think I'm pretty comfortable with a drill and do it entirely correctly or almost entirely correctly before the 'final' day of that drill.

I don't remove a drill from the stick if I've repeated it several times in the same session and just today got it down for the moment. Tough drills typically get worked on over the course of several days.

I try not to remove the drill if I'm just squeaking by. I keep it on the stick for more days, especially if it was particularly hard.

Occasionally, I get tired of revisiting a drill and will acquiesce to its removal, but that's rare.

I don't try to memorize drills, rather I try NOT to memorize them. That is, that my response is spontaneous because it's easy and I understand what's going on, not because I know the answer before the question is asked. So I treating drills different than dialogues in that way. I try to imagine what's being said, rather than just mechanical response.

For those other tracks I pasted today, this is the general goal right now:
  • Dialogues - can I understand and repeat correctly in the break? The break is long enough to repeat, but doesn't leave time for stammering and searching for words. Not always as fast as the original (unit 46+ goes pretty fast, although I am trying to actually get those vocal reductions down, particularly in the long sentences).
  • Presentation of Pattern - These are translation drills on the grammar point being introduced - basically, can I do these pretty much with ease and understanding?
  • Replacements - same thing - pretty easily and correctly. These aren't in the lineup much, as they're being sort of held for a road trip, but you can see the easier ones have disappeared from the stick.
  • Variations - same - relative ease and correctness. These are also on hold for a road trip or after the dialog/illustration/replacement preview/reviews are finished

I'm doing all the drill types in the sequential run. The tracks above are where a particular type of drill or learning has been pulled out for one reason or another. (preview, review, automaticity, variety).

I generally only work on a drill for one part of each day. I may repeat it a few times if I'm in that mood, but I generally don't study it in the morning, afternoon and night. (When I do morning, afternoon, night drills, they are different from the ones earlier in the day). That's good for variety and long term memory.

Although I don't time how long I'm drilling, typically it's 10-15 minutes, but multiple times in a single day. Lately, I've probably been getting in an hour, but there have been other times when doing 20 minutes in a day was a chore. I'm taking short drives (10 minutes) to get to where I can take a walk. That's a perfect amount of time for an FSI drill session. Taking 2 walks a day the last 2 weeks, so that's 4 sessions away from the computer.

Some sessions need the computer (book), like for the advanced dialogues and some grammar points. I only use the book to help with the non-sequential drills/dialogues. (There are a few variation drills in units 31-45 that don't have vocal prompts and those I use the book for the prompt, but generally having something to read makes the drills easy and that's not the goal. Sometimes it's smart, other times it's interfering with the "speaking" goal. E.G., the book for dialogues and presentations of pattern often makes sense, but for regular drills the book makes them easier than they're meant to be.
7 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

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AllSubNoDub
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby AllSubNoDub » Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:24 pm

Ty for the excellent response! I have run across a couple of "how do you use FSI/DLI materials?" posts, but since most people outright dislike the materials, I haven't found many of the responses nearly as helpful or as detailed as this, with the main idea being usually just "getting through them". This is a very well-thought-out approach, and far better than what I had previously done for the parts of FSI Spanish Basic and FSI German Basic that I had worked through in the past (iirc, I basically just worked with the materials for about a week then moved on, focusing mainly on the dialogs and "calendar progress", with no real qualitative evaluation of my efforts).

I will be bookmarking this page and making a separate FSI spreadsheet with a tab for each unit, with an initial evaluation checklist based on this post and room for notes, logging, and other particulars.

What are your plans after you finish the last unit? Burn it? Maybe cap everything off with like a "drill march", where you sequentially run through everything once without stopping (kind of like Arguelles's "shadowing march")? That, in and of itself, would probably take at least a few weeks given Basic's size, and the fact that most of us have other stokes in the fire, with other languages, materials, and personal and professional obligations. If you move onto DLI Basic or DLI Programmatic after this, I'm afraid we may have to reserve you a padded room, but I admire your stoicism and stick-to-it-iveness. I think we should be having at least "50% fun" in language learning, but the other 50% is also important and required to push through proficiency barriers. There are certainly less pleasurable, less rewarding, and less effective things I can think of than working through FSI Basic Spanish in this fashion.
2 x

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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Mon Nov 01, 2021 9:08 pm

AllSubNoDub wrote:What are your plans after you finish the last unit?

I did some projections today. Using the 8 part Platiquemos FSI course splits, I still have almost a year to go:
Q4/2021 - units 33-37
Q1/2022 - units 38-43
Q2/2022 - units 44-49
Q3/2022 - units 50-55

That leaves plenty of room for other stuff mixed in. Using the "Word Brain" book's language type classifications, this is what I'm thinking between now and the finish of FSI:

Literature: More Gabriel García Márquez books, meaning most of his novels, short stories and autobiography
Colloquial: Club de Cuevos and other Mexican series.
Informational: This should take care of itself with random YouTube watching, etc.

High level, I see getting through FSI Basic Spanish and the other stuff as getting to a good B2ish level. May do a detailed assessment to spot things I've overlooked, if it's not obvious. (SIELE perhaps or a "review everything" workbook).

Then I'm thinking branch out to other authors and find some people to talk to.

As far as learning after FSI, thinking GLOSS may provide structure for continued learn learning.

This subsequent branching out I see as more C1ish (meaning on the C1 road, not that it's been achieved).

And of course some FSI review mixed in para no volver a las andadas. :)
5 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:28 pm

The Posterity Progress Bars
: 19 / 20 Cien años de soledad - con Kepa Amuchastegui audio (5x)
: 490 / 533 Vivir para contarla
: 2 / 43 Todos los cuentos de Gabriel García Márquez
: 33 / 55 FSI Basic in sequence
: 50 / 55 FSI Dialogs (2x)
: 37 / 55 FSI Presentations of Patterns (illustrations)
: 3061 / 3500 3500 pages - since June 14, 2021
: 18 / 45 Club de Cuervos (NetFlix series)

Completed FSI Basic Spanish unit 33 today. That's 60% of the units. I already know what I may say when I'm at 80%, which is that the final 20% is 80% of the work. (I hope to be wrong on that) :geek:

I'm into season 2 of Club de Cuervos. Sometimes I use subtitles. Sometimes they're in English. Sometimes I turn off subtitles. I always use the Spanish with descriptive audio for the sound. Like it.

It was actually the experience of turning off subtitles a few days back and finding things perhaps even easier to understand that led to today's poll, "Language learning is like...". A day later I wanted the Spanish subtitles. This morning it seemed I needed the English subtitles. Maybe it has to do with a character who has just disappointed me. :cry:

I'm once again into the final chapter of Cien años de soledad. This run (5), has been mostly shadowing and giving a good bit of attention to improving the translation, which I make more literal in the difficult parts. It's pretty amazing how the original translation seems so weak at times.

Have been thinking the next run may be 140% speed audio with the parallel text. There's a week or two before I do another road trip and I like to have whatever I start finished off, so it's not part of the away time with family. Could do RTVE Don Quijote instead, but I'm into Cien años de soledad right now.

The Vivir para contarla autobiography has been interesting. I listen to it on walks and it's easy for my mind to wander away from the story. I'm into the final chapter. Each chapter is about 2 1/2 hours long. Think I want listen to it again after the away holidays.

I also got the Audible for Marquez' Todos los cuentos. I've listened to the first two. Also ordered both cuentos and the autobiography as Spanish books in good old fashioned paper.
9 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Tue Nov 09, 2021 1:21 pm

BeaP wrote:For example if I study a structure from the book and then read a novel in the evening, I always meet the structure several times in the book. I don't know, I think it just calls my attention more, I recognise it easier because I've recently studied it.

BeaP's given me an idea to use with Cien años de soledad down the road. That is, let the early part of the day, when I'm generally most effective work for me. For example, reading a section of a Cien años de soledad chapter in the morning, with the book, or maybe the parallel text, but slowly savoring the questions and answers that come to mind.

Then later that day, or maybe the next day or a week later or after I finish the slow and detailed read, listen again.

I have been doing the 140% audio on the current (sixth) trip through the novel. I do give some attention to translation and improving the translation when things get fuzzy. I was able to do 2 chapters yesterday and didn't feel like I was rushing. Chapters are about 40 minutes at 140%. I split them up in various sessions.

Finished season 2 of Club de Cuervos and into season 3. It is interesting that after watching for a while, I find myself thinking in colloquialisms for a bit afterwards. The actors use a lot of chingar and pedo. Some of the characters are sort of upper class and that doesn't seem to make much difference in their use of slang.

There's also a couple of small spin-offs for this series, which I can see watching.

Just finished listening to Vivir para contarla last night (first time through).
: 533 / 533 Vivir para contarla

And right on schedule, Todos los cuentos appeared on my porch yesterday in hardback. I think the universe is giving me a hint for what to listen to on my walk this morning. :)
5 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

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Ì had a couple of ideas

Postby luke » Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:17 pm

some ideas
I dug some old FSI CDs, units 52-55 out of a drawer. This was nice change of pace for stuff to listen to while shaving, etc. BTW, units 52 and 53 have the longest dialogues in the course. Fast. Long sentences. Shifting strategies a bit to get these guys under my belt.

While on my walk this morning it came on me that I could bring along Living to Tell the Tale. That's the translation for Vivir para contarla. Having a finger in the book so I can glance at the translation once in a while could be helpful.

Listened to another Gabo cuento on that walk. They vary between about 10 and 60 minutes. So far, they've all fit into a walk. After the tale, I started listening to Gabo's autobiography.

Diego Ruzzarin was the Brazilian fellow who struck me as a thinker and a talker, so glad youtube helped me figure that out. This is following up on BeaP's suggestion of talk shows over series for learning colloquial language.

Un buen ejemplo:



Not exactly a talk show, but it is two people talking spontaneously in an interview.

And when I search: Diego Ruzzarin entrevista - I hit the jackpot. :)

Did watch another episode or two of Club de cuervos.

Have been deemphasizing Anki for several days. Adding 11-12 cards per day from the 5000 frequency deck, only 3 from El Quijote, and about the same from the FSI Basic Spanish deck. I have about 3 other decks, but they're either in the maturing phase or the not looking at it phase. Under 30 minutes of Anki for the past couple days. Think 20 minutes per day is a more balanced pace.
4 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:31 pm

more walk thoughts
I brought both Living to tell the Tale and Todos los cuentos along today. That's too many books, ;) but I did use both of them. Los Cuentos seemed more challenging than the autobiography. I also listened a good bit to another recording I have of Cien años de soledad. That was very pleasant and I was understanding chapter 4 very well.

Putting a few ideas together: some Arguelles sequentiality, some Dr. Steven Stuve mastery, the convenience and durability of my paperback One Hundred Years of Solitude, with all its annotations and duct tape reinforcement, and continued curiosity concerning considerable clauses, with the desire to complete another pass before the next road trip, has me thinking of utilizing that Audible recording of Cien años de soledad as accompaniment during the walk with the original translation available when curiosity about the current passage strikes, may be the method of the near term.

This afternoon the hardcover Vivir para contarlo showed up on the porch.
3 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby Le Baron » Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:49 pm

luke wrote:This afternoon the hardcover Vivir para contarlo showed up on the porch.

A visit from the Spanish book fairy?
1 x


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