Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

[luke]

some time later
I finished up Dos soledades this morning. Excellent. Another fellow did an essay and interview with Gabo at the end of the book/audio.

It's interesting that Vargas Llosa also got top billing in the piece. He was mainly asking questions. His essay slings some mud. Maybe the publisher thought it would help sales. It probably did. Vargas Llosa will have some ground to make up with me in the future for his mudslinging.

The other recording, Soledad & Compañía is longer, over 8 hours. Many more people making reflections, many of them informally. It struck me this morning that maybe it will be helpful for colloquial language. It's a little more challenging because there are so many different voices (not narrative voices, but "here's what so and so had to say about that"). The structure is not as clear without a physical book.

The upside though is that it's not a novel or short story, so when I miss some in the middle, it doesn't degrade my understanding going forward too much.

I recently picked up Gabo saying that the short stories in a book of cuentos should be read in order. The author had a reason for ordering them as he did. Gabo didn't order them by when they were written. There is an overall theme. He doesn't say they were exercises, but he does say they prepared him for what ultimately came together in Cien años de soledad, which he worked on for 18 months, monomaniacally, while his wife, Mercedes, sold the TV, the refrigerator, etc, just to help keep the family afloat, as Gabo worked solely on his masterpiece. He wasn't doing side work as a journalist or hanging out with his buddies.

what's up with walking?
So now that I've finished the first trip through Dos soledades, I'm thinking I'll have three little listen tracks. Continue Soledad & Compañía, start Todos los cuentos from the beginning, at least with Ojos de perro azul (in order), and maybe poke a second run through Dos soledades somewhere in the mix, since it was so good and short.

I'm reserving the right to jump to Doce cuentos peregrinos - his last book of short stories - without doing his other two books of cuentos before that.

[BeaP]

I hope it's OK if I share my view on the hours here with you.

If you want to remain in the CEFR, I think the main problem is that a lot depends on the individual. I can only give you my example. As an MA in philology, I need very little time to get from C1 to C2, because C1 vocabulary and grammar plus my already acquired composition and debate / presentation skills (which exist independently from the language) equal C2. I can analyse texts very well and easily, I understand their structure, so it's quite easy for me to follow examples seen in articles. The longest and most difficult step for me is / was around B2, so the intermediate plateau. What I don't have advantage in is vocabulary and that part of the grammar that needs to be memorised (like verb forms). C2 writing is basically the level of journalism. There's a task in the exam where you have to write an article based on an interview. There are many people who can't do that in their native language. The CEFR expects an academic knowledge from you.

Outside the CEFR, where you don't have to stick to the academic performance, and you can have the goal to become native-like (not necessarily eloquent, rather fluent), things are a bit easier. In this system I lose my advantage, and I think if the road is 10 pieces long, I get to B1 in 1 piece, B2 in another 2 pieces, C1 in another 3 pieces, C2 in another 4. So the steps become increasingly longer. But then I don't really talk about skills, that can be faked if you have other skills independent from the language. For me, real C2 would mean a very wide knowledge of vocabulary and a totally automatic use of grammar and structures, not the skill of producing something pre-designed and pre-trained or the skill of guessing from content. I can't give you hours, because I firmly believe that language learning can't be condensed after a certain extent. It's a long adaptation process, and a lot depends on the following as well: concentration abilities, learning skills (memorisation), knowledge of similar languages. People or institutes who give an estimate give them because they have to.

It might be easier to give an estimate in years. With the right method in a relatively easy language a hobby learner can reach B2 in 4 years. I always try to persuade myself that it can be done in 2, but no, it can only be done in 2, if you're a student. C1 is 8 years, and C2 is, well, for me it seems it will be 15, and real C2 even more than that.

[luke]

I hope it's OK if I share my view on the hours here with you.

If you want to remain in the CEFR, I think the main problem is that a lot depends on the individual. I can only give you my example. As an MA in philology, I need very little time to get from C1 to C2, because C1 vocabulary and grammar plus my already acquired composition and debate / presentation skills (which exist independently from the language) equal C2. I can analyse texts very well and easily, I understand their structure, so it's quite easy for me to follow examples seen in articles. The longest and most difficult step for me is / was around B2, so the intermediate plateau. What I don't have advantage in is vocabulary and that part of the grammar that needs to be memorised (like verb forms). C2 writing is basically the level of journalism. There's a task in the exam where you have to write an article based on an interview. There are many people who can't do that in their native language. The CEFR expects an academic knowledge from you.

Outside the CEFR, where you don't have to stick to the academic performance, and you can have the goal to become native-like (not necessarily eloquent, rather fluent), things are a bit easier. In this system I lose my advantage, and I think if the road is 10 pieces long, I get to B1 in 1 piece, B2 in another 2 pieces, C1 in another 3 pieces, C2 in another 4. So the steps become increasingly longer. But then I don't really talk about skills, that can be faked if you have other skills independent from the language. For me, real C2 would mean a very wide knowledge of vocabulary and a totally automatic use of grammar and structures, not the skill of producing something pre-designed and pre-trained or the skill of guessing from content. I can't give you hours, because I firmly believe that language learning can't be condensed after a certain extent. It's a long adaptation process, and a lot depends on the following as well: concentration abilities, learning skills (memorisation), knowledge of similar languages. People or institutes who give an estimate give them because they have to.

It might be easier to give an estimate in years. With the right method in a relatively easy language a hobby learner can reach B2 in 4 years. I always try to persuade myself that it can be done in 2, but no, it can only be done in 2, if you're a student. C1 is 8 years, and C2 is, well, for me it seems it will be 15, and real C2 even more than that.

Thank you so much Ms. BeaP! That is a very thorough and complete answer. I won't say it's good news, but you tell the truth, and that's better than good news!

I started the first cuento de Ojos de perro azul: - La tercera resignación. If one likes La metamorfosis, by Kafka, you're in for a treat with this one.

I found a fantastic narrator for the story. She only has a few videos, but apparently this type of story is right down her alley. She's done a few more Gabo cuentos, so looking forward to that:



I'm not adding Ojos de perro azul or anything else to my progress bars at this point. Don't want any pressure. But this was first cuento and WHOOOO, what a story and what a storyteller!

Hope you're all having a good day.

[BeaP]

I had to admit to myself that Latin-American novels are over-represented in the reading part of the DELE, so I try to read more of them, and less from Spain. However, I seem to have a problem. I experience culture clash again and again, I always feel that I don't understand the novel. I do understand the words, but I don't understand the motivation of the characters, and I often say to myself: 'What was that all about?'. I get the feeling that they can only write about their country, and nothing else. And because I've never lived there, I have no idea about these things. Have you also experienced this?

[zenmonkey]

I had to admit to myself that Latin-American novels are over-represented in the reading part of the DELE, so I try to read more of them, and less from Spain. However, I seem to have a problem. I experience culture clash again and again, I always feel that I don't understand the novel. I do understand the words, but I don't understand the motivation of the characters, and I often say to myself: 'What was that all about?'. I get the feeling that they can only write about their country, and nothing else. And because I've never lived there, I have no idea about these things. Have you also experienced this?

Who have you been reading that left you these clashes?

Maybe this article helps - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_realism (note that the term is now criticized by the newer wave of LatAm writers for various reasons - particularly the idea that Europeans can bucket the regional literature as 'not form here' in this way. )

Borges, Neruda, Paz all write beyond the geography.

Others are stuck in the grit of the city or 'jungle' settings.

And so the response to that also grew in McOndo and Post-Boom movements...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McOndo

[BeaP]

Who have you been reading that left you these clashes?

Thank for the helpful answer and the links. I've read Poeta chileno by Alejandro Zambra recently, and before that I started Nuestra parte de noche by Mariana Enríquez. In both cases I've found that goodreads reviewers from Latin-America very praising the book like 'genial', 'novelón', and I didn't really get them. Especially the latter was disappointing, because I wanted to like it a lot, as I usually like horror. But I felt that it was deeply rooted in folklore, and I didn't get the symbols. Now I'm reading Dos crímenes by Jorge Ibargüengoitia. It's supposed to be a satire of Mexico, but I don't get anything, it's just strange. And one more, that just came to my mind: I also started Las primas by Aurora Venturini, and it was like an absurd drama for me.

A long time ago I read books by Borges, Márquez and Cortázar in translation, and I think I understood these. (At least some of them.) On the other hand, I remember struggling with Carpentier and not really getting Boquitas pintadas by Manuel Puig.

Maybe I'd just need to spend more time on picking out what to read, and look around more among the classics. I wanted to read contemporary fiction, because that's what I had no idea about. I wanted to widen my scope. But even among the classics there are a huge amount of books about dictatorships, it feels like it's either dictators or folklore and mythology, with some other topics that you literally have to dig out. But one could also argue that in Spain it's always Franco or harassed children, so I don't know. I'll definitely try to finish these books because I already have them, and I'd like to understand them. It's possible that getting more familiar with the culture will help me avoid these clashes later. And it's also possible that I'm unfair, and it's by pure chance that I came across the wrong books at the wrong time.

[luke]

Maybe I'd just need to spend more time on picking out what to read, and look around more among the classics. I wanted to read contemporary fiction, because that's what I had no idea about. I wanted to widen my scope. But even among the classics there are a huge amount of books about dictatorships, it feels like it's either dictators or folklore and mythology, with some other topics that you literally have to dig out.

I plunged back into Dos Soledades during my recent walks. It's short and philosophical, with respect to Latin American literature. Vargas Llosa presses García Márquez on many aspects of his writing and Gabo has enlightening answers. It has been fun to listen to at 90% speed and shadow along on the last few walks. Now I'm in the part where some people who observed the interviews give their reflections. I'm certain you would understand this dialogue and it might be helpful for understanding Latin American author's penchant for dictatorships and magical realism. Not sure on that, as I've only read García Márquez to any extent. He's certainly good at explaining himself.

After the 3rd Ojos de perro azul short story, I jumped back into Los funerales de la Mamá Grande. I listen/shadowed the first two this afternoon. They are rather short. I made a note in my book that the next time through, I may want to read, rather than listen.

Speaking of reading, the intensive read of Cien años de soledad has been pleasurable, but slow going, what with making Anki cards for everything that's interesting. I'm in chapter 8 of 20 now. I've started listening to the Con Kepa Amuchastegui videos on the side, while working or doing other stuff around the house. I understand the story very well and enjoy it. I'm using this listening as a supplement to keep the recently Ankied vocabulary fresh.

The other day, I wrote out the exercises for the FSI Reading in unit 47. After I finished, I realized meant to do unit 46. Unit 46 has 2 longer (7 pages or so) readings with questions. I did the first one tonight. It was very well written. Most of narratives are. It was about the life of a businessman and his wife at a conference with ambassadors, government officials, businesspeople, their wives, a busybody lady complaining the local columnist wrote about another lady wearing the same dress her husband bought her from Paris. Drama!

The course uses the same characters in a lot of the readings and dialogues, and I like that. The good news is unit 47's "tough stuff" is already done.

Just plugging along, trying to keep things fun and doing them when the mood strikes.

I was watching Mr. Salas YouTube channel the other day. He mentioned finding one person to sound like. He was saying that in the context of learning English, since there are so many accents. He found it helpful to choose one he liked. (He's a Spanish speaker by birth).

On that topic, I like Kepa Amuchastegui:

[luke]

finished FSI Basic Spanish unit 46 of 55
Wrote out the responses for the second reading in unit 46 tonight.

My Spanish is improving. I think the cumulative effect of plowing through FSI, the vocabulary study of Cien años de soledad, and shadowing various audiobooks with a Gabo theme at 90% speed is working right now.

: 39 / 124 Cien años de soledad (9x)
: 46 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish
: 52 / 55 FSI Illustrations
: 4 / 8 Los funerales de la Mamá Grande (2x)

I added Los funerales de la Mamá Grande back in the progress bars. The first 4 are all very good, which is where I'm at right now. The next story is La viuda de Montiel. It will include two characters from the story I just finished. I'm looking forward to listening to it tomorrow on my walk. It's just over 14 minutes.

This second listen of Dos soledades is softening me on Vargas Llosa. One of the essays at the end is his and although he didn't care of the story he jinxed, El otoño del patriarca, he's very positive on Gabo. Interestingly, he considers García Márquez as more of an artist than an intellectual. Márquez is more symbolic and less concrete. His storytelling paints pictures and leaves a lot on the table for the reader to work with. He doesn't box the reader in, as a more intellectual author might.

The other book, Soledad & Compañía is fitting in well with my walks. Not demanding. Anecdotes. Reflections.

I started watching/listening to El amor en los tiempos del cólera. I'm in subchapter 8 of what will likely be around 120:



Having this Gabo and FSI focus keeps me from wandering too far off the path and if I have to let something slide to bring the focus back, it's all good.

[luke]

Word of the day: chinchorro = hammock

Un día después del sábado was today's story. It's about 50 minutes long. There are lot of characters and backstory from, you know, that other book I like. Rebeca, Argénida, padre Antonio Isabel, and some mentions of el coronel Aureliano Buendia and his deceased brother, José Arcadio Buendia. I walked very slowly today. Spent about 15 minutes just looking at the deer, who've become accustomed to the fellow who takes his walks in the mornings and afternoons, and speaks Spanish out loud, to himself.

Today, I set the audio speed at 85%. It's easier to get the vowels right on a long story with that little extra slowdown.

The word at the top of the post had me curious. Using the electronic text above, it was easy to find it. I wrote the definition in my book and gave it a mild underlining highlight in yellow.

Apparently, there's a genre of YouTube videos about Myers-Briggs Type Indicator and Language Learning. I watched a good one the other day and the narrator used the 4 way MBTI split:

Analysts (.NT.)
Diplomats (.NF.)
Sentinels (.S.J)
Explorers (.S.P.)

I test into the Diplomat types. I thought it was neat, considering I'm using the Foreign Service Institute course they used to train diplomats with.

By the way, English is not Latin. It's okay to end a sentence with "with". It can even be doubled at the end, under special circumstances. For some though, it may feel more comfortable to express that idea with, I'm using the course with which the Foreign Service Institute used to train diplomats.

Everyone is welcome here!

[Le Baron]

¿Me puede dirigir a una de estas pruebas/exámenes MBTI?

I test into the Diplomat types. I thought it was neat, considering I'm using the Foreign Service Institute course they used to train diplomats with.

By the way, English is not Latin. It's okay to end a sentence with "with". It can even be doubled at the end, under special circumstances

Having also been part of the school generation who were (wrongly) picked up on this thing of 'not ending with a preposition', it ended up sitting in the back of my head for a very long time. So I would write sentences such as yours above as:

"I thought it was neat, considering I'm using the Foreign Service Institute course used to train diplomats." Or went with the: "with which they..." construction. Now I just don't care. I wouldn't use 'neat' though, it only means 'tidy' in my head.

When you have foreign learners of English around you who pick you up on vernacular speech habits, because they're officially 'deprecated' in textbooks, it can be a tiresome thing. Even worse, one of my former neighbours once laughed at me because I said: 'If I were you..' Having the temerity to 'correct' me to 'if I was you..' I said "no sir, it's an example of the subjunctive in English. You clearly haven't reached this level yet." And as a consequence I think he told his girlfriend to do her saxophone practise that little bit longer and louder, in order to annoy me.