Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby ozymandias » Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:47 am

luke wrote:Quizás es que había acabado a mirar 30-40 minutos de Jesus G. Maestro's análisis del capítulo uno, y no pude soportar mi propia critica pequeñita de la del Maestro.

Quizás es que había acabado de mirarme durante 30-40 minutos el análisis de Jesús G. Maestro del capítulo uno, y no pude soportar mi propia critiquilla ante/frente a la del Maestro.

"Acabar" is always followed by "de": "acabar de hacer algo"

"Mirar" used to express "reading something" is a pronominal verb.

"Mi propia crítica pequeñita" doesn't sound natural, I couldn't explain why.


luke wrote:Solo una cosa que quiero discutir. Muchas veces el Maestro tiene ganas de criticar a los otros críticos, quienes han perdido el rumbo simbólico de la historia. No puedo resistir darles mi propria respuesta a una de las suyas.

Solo quiero discutir una cosa


luke wrote:"Pecado original", que evidentemente algunos otros criticos han comparado a ideas de Jean Jacques Rouseau y el noble salvaje, o algo así. En eso, por lo menos, los indígenas se podrían clasificar como salvajes, de la comodidad de nuestro perspectivo del siglo XXI. No les voy a dar opinión acerca de tales cosas aquí y ahora. Ni de "noble", ni de "salvaje".

han comparado con las ideas
como salvajes, desde la comodidad de nuestra perspectiva


luke wrote:Quienes lo portaron la idea a los indígenas?

¿Quiénes exportaron/trajeron a los indígenas?


luke wrote:A propósito, no escribí la arriba para desfiar a ningun grupo o religion

A propósito, no escribí lo de arriba


luke wrote:Aún mientras he estado escribiendo esto ya he pensado de otras posibilidades.

Incluso mientras he estado escribiendo esto ya he pensado en otras posibilidades


luke wrote:Y si quieres ayudarme en mis pecados de gramática, etc, tienes mi permiso de darme tu consejo.

tienes mi permiso para darme tu consejo

luke wrote:O tal vez el pecado original se refiere a la más corta oración del capítulo uno. Dos palabras.

a la oración más corta


After you finish Cien años de soledad, I recommend you Crónica de una muerte anunciada from the same author. You seem to have a great level in both grammar and vocabulary! What's your plan for Spanish at the moment?
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Sun Dec 19, 2021 9:23 am

ozymandias wrote:After you finish Cien años de soledad, I recommend you Crónica de una muerte anunciada from the same author. What's your plan for Spanish at the moment?

Thank you for your kind corrections!

As far as reading, I had been thinking about 3 books/audiobooks I have. El amor en los tiempos de cólera, Vivir para contarla, y Cien ańos de soledad again.

But now you have me thinking about Crónica de una muerte anunciada.

On the study side, I'm still working my way through FSI Basic Spanish. I'm about 70% of the way though that, and can imagine doing some follow-up with the same course again. I'm a good 6-9 months away from just finishing the course. There will be follow-ups, but first things first.

Again, very much appreciate your corrections and explanations!

O tal vez el pecado original se refiere a la oración más corta del capítulo uno dos. Dos palabras.
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:14 pm

The long ride
14 hour drive. Not exactly "grueling", but I was able to listen to and/or practice Spanish pretty much the whole way. In surfing to find Spanish radio stations, a couple of great songs came by, in English, but didn't feel the need to surf beyond until the end of the song.

The double-compressed El Quijote did not get transferred to a memory stick, which got me into Cien años de soledad again. Some hope that my return to Anki in a couple weeks will be pleasant, rather than, 'oh my gosh, why did I pick such hard words'. 9 chapters. I switched narrators towards the end. That helped keep it fresh. I thought more than once, "didn't I just listen to this"? (Actually I listened to it 2 weeks ago, but did have an experience at the beginning of the trip where I listened to 2 chapters in a row without realizing it. When I went back to chapter 2, I did just hear it :)

I brought the book too and started an essay this morning. I can see how the literary critic stuff is good for placing the author and novel in place and noting his innovations. This is the first essay at the back of the book, Cien años de soledad en la Novela Hispanoamericana by Pedro Luis Barcia. It sparked my interest in wider reading, I can contain that flame. He is giving very high homage to Gabo's masterpiece, particularly it's place in literature and especially hispanoamerican lit. Very intelligent. Will be worth re-reading later.

Did a fair bit of FSI on the drive. Replacements, sequential, a tad of illustrations.

Also listened to the first 6 weeks of Hugo in 90 days. It has a few exercises and drills that can be done if one is ready. The one for "solia" was good. Did it about 3 times to get it down for the moment. There is very little "think" time in the drills.

Google gave me a short cut through Tennessee and Kentucky. It's a beautiful country.
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby Cerebral_Arbitrage » Mon Dec 20, 2021 8:29 pm

luke wrote:Did a fair bit of FSI on the drive. Replacements, sequential, a tad of illustrations.


Oh, if only I could make myself do this! I wish I had the same FSI-fortitude.
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Thu Dec 23, 2021 1:42 pm

One of the pecados (sins/mistakes) that Professor Arguelles mentions in his "Reading Skills Reality Check" video is "reading faster is always better" (going too fast, not staying in the moment, not paying full attention). An experience I sometimes have is, I just read a paragraph or page and don't even remember doing it, but here I am on the next paragraph or page. That happens in my native language too, so maybe it's a sign of progress, although not a desirable one.

For me, oscillating between "momentum" and "not paying enough attention" requires some balancing. If I have a huge task, like Cien años de soledad, I don't think I would have gotten to my current level of understanding if I'd tried to methodically understand and look up everything I had a question about when I first set about the journey. So at the beginning, some "push" is needed to create momentum (audio). Repetition helps "tame the beast".

FSI Basic Spanish is another beast. I've logged about some ways I've made forays into progressively more difficult parts of the course without perfecting everything in between. Learning all the dialogues is an example.

Today, I'm looking more at the FSI manual and doing the drills without the audio. That's my big point today. The audio is helpful for driving me through or creating momentum. At certain points though, it can be a hinderance when more reflection would be helpful.

An example with Cien años de soledad. Exactly why Fernanda del Carpio came to Macondo isn't that clear to me. There were money problems, a queen needs a king, etc, but still not exactly clear how it was that she became the queen of the parade in Macondo. Perhaps that was sort of part of the plan to advertise the existence of a "queen" and the implicit offer of her availability. Similarly, there's a point where Fernanda heads back to her home and Jose Aureliano Segundo (her newlywed but wayward husband) searches for her. The telling of these two acontecimientos (happenings) is sort of mixed together. I'd like to have a clearer distinction in my mind, or at least a hypothesis or two as to why, for instance, Fernando del Carpio was sent to Macondo. I just invented one above, in editing this, but that's a still a bit vague. I don't think a reason is very explicitly stated so that adds to the mystery.

So, what to do?

This morning, I am spending a bit more time with the FSI manual, particularly with the Presentations of Pattern (illustrations). That's healthy behavior.

During this visit, with Cien años de soledad, I've done some Listen-Reading (English-Spanish) of chapters 10, 11, 12 along with some just listening (Spanish). Not saying that's a solution to my "going too fast", but it's different. I was tempted for a bit to rewind the English audio and jump back a minute or so when the "Fernanda" affairs got jumbled. I didn't do that at the time. That's where I'm going. Take the time when the question is fresh (if possible) to find answers.

Part of me is thinking that after this trip, I want to do a slow, methodical plodding through Cien años de soledad, looking at some images of unusual things (plants, for example), more referral to the RAE glossaries, some reading aloud, understanding each sentence well enough for the moment, making a flash card here and there. That sort of thing.

Since it's a bigger ask, so thinking it will also be helpful to narrow my focus a bit. That might sound strange, seeing as how the tight focus on Cien años de soledad has been pervasive for quite some time. Not so much vocabulary or grammar per se, but discovering "what does this mean", "what is this saying", "how is this communicated"? And there, I don't mean the general case, but the specific cases. From there, one can begin to generalize, with a tight compass around "in Cien años de soledad, this is what's going on, as I see it".

Have also considered creating a timeline or something like you see in detective shows where there are pictures and clues and lines of connection (sort of a mind map) that they use to solve a mystery. Imagine a big rollo de papel. I'm planning to move, so not sure I can go quite there. Although computers are great for many things, physical objects can't be beat for things like this (maybe a new compute tool wouldn't be bad in the interum).

It may sound like the work of a madman, but that's what I'm thinking.
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby BeaP » Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:35 pm

The book on Márquez has arrived. So I'm supporting your 'scholarly' work if you're interested in it. You were the one who told me that one should do whatever feels right at the time. ;) There are a lot of ways to a good and solid Spanish knowledge. Just keep writing your reflections on the book in Spanish.
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Thu Dec 23, 2021 4:32 pm

BeaP wrote:The book on Márquez has arrived. So I'm supporting your 'scholarly' work if you're interested in it. You were the one who told me that one should do whatever feels right at the time. ;)

Por supuesto, señora!

Mientrias leía un ensayo en la parte trasera de la edicíon del RAE, encontré menciones de libros de Carlos Fuentes y Vargas Llosa, que aparentemente pertenecen a Cien años de soledad. Así que, quien es el autor y el título de esta obra erudíta que acabó de llegar en su domicilio?

(A propósito, no he encontrado las parejas de "!" y "?" en la Latin/Roman teclada virtual aquí).

Beap wrote:There are a lot of ways to a good and solid Spanish knowledge. Just keep writing your reflections on the book in Spanish.

Bueno, capítulo diez, empieza así:
Años después, en su lecho de agonía, Aureliano Segundo había de recordar la lluviosa tarde de junio en que entró en el dormitorio a conocer a su primer hijo.

Desde allí, la historia sigue más y más hacía al pasado. Habían casado Fernanda del Carpio y Aureliano Segundo el año anterior. Unas frases después, Aureliano Segundo y su gemelo hermano José Arcadio Segundo son hijos jovenes. La historia queda en su juventud y avanza hacía ellos compartían la misma mujer, aunque al principio, nadie se diera cuenta de eso.

Bueno, alguna cosa interesante, de que Gabriel García Márquez aproveche, es que pueda mencionar cualquier detalle que pueda tener relevancia, sin importar si esté en el futuro o el pasado. Hechos como, Aureliano Segundo y Fernanda del Carpio son casados, tiene hijos, hay concubina, que se cambia de nombre con su gemelo hermano para burlarse, y que nombres cambiados no superen el destino. Todo está a su alcance. Es como la historia se cuenta por si misma.
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Sat Dec 25, 2021 12:20 am

Mystery solving...
Se llamaba Fernanda del Carpio. La habían seleccionado como la más hermosa entre las cinco mil mujeres más hermosas del país, y la habían llevado a Macondo con la promesa de nombrarla reina de Madagascar

Ranavalona III - fue la última reina de Merina, un reino que dominó lo que hoy es Madagascar, del 30 de julio de 1883 al 28 de febrero de 1897
Image

Al principio de capítulo 10, página 211, se introduce el primer hijo de Jose Aureliano Segundo. He citado esto anteriormente. Ocho hojas más tarde, después de historietas de la juventud de los dos gemelos, Aureliano Segundo y José Arcadio Segundo, la introducción de Petra Cotes, la concubína de Aureliano Segundo, la historia vuelve a aquel hilo remoto que empezó el capítulo:

Cuando Úrsula se dio cuenta de que José Arcadio Segundo era gallero y Aureliano Segundo tocaba el acordeón en las fiestas ruidosas de su concubina, creyó enloquecer de confusión.
When Úrsula realized that José Arcadio Segundo was a cockfight man and that Aureliano Segundo played the accordion at the noisy parties of his concubine, she thought she would go mad with the combination.

Era como si en ambos se hubieran concentrado los defectos de la familia y ninguna de sus virtudes.
It was as if in both had been concentrated the defects of the family and none of its virtues.

Entonces decidió que nadie volviera a llamarse Aureliano y José Arcadio.
Then she decided that no one would again be called Aureliano or José Arcadio.

Sin embargo, cuando Aureliano Segundo tuvo su primer hijo, no se atrevió a contrariarlo.
Yet, when Aureliano Segundo had his first son, she did not dare go against his will.

-De acuerdo -dijo Úrsula-, pero con una condición: yo me encargo de criarlo.
“All right,” Úrsula said, “but on one condition: I will bring him up.”

Pero antes de la salida de Fernanda del Carpio de la casa de sus padres, antes de la llegada a Macondo, un hombre militar visitó a su padre, y me parece, que pronto ella fuera a Macondo.

Y que pasó en el carnaval, donde Aureliano Segundo vió por primera vez la "reina de Madagascar", su futura esposa?

Las descargas de fusilería ahogaron el esplendor de los fuegos artificiales, y los gritos de terror anularon la música, y el júbilo fue aniqulado por el pánico.

Veintiocho páginas más tarde, encontramos en un pasado aún más lejano:

Página 239 wrote:Nunca oyó hablar de las guerras que desangraron el país.
She had never heard mention of the wars that were bleeding the country.

Nunca dejó de oír los ejercicios de piano a las tres de la tarde.
She continued her piano lessons at three in the afternoon.

Empezaba inclusive a perder la ilusión de ser reina, cuando sonaron dos aldabonazos perentorios en el portón, y le abrió a un militar apuesto, de ademanes ceremoniosos, que tenía una cicatriz en la mejilla y una medalla de oro en el pecho.
She had even began to lose the illusion of being a queen when two peremptory raps of the knocker sounded at the door and she opened it to a well-groomed military officer with ceremonious manners who had a scar on his cheek and a gold medal on his chest.

Se encerró con su padre en el despacho.
He closeted himself with her father in the study.

Dos horas después, su padre fue a buscarla al costurero.
Two hours later her father came to get her in the sewing room.

«Prepare sus cosas -le dijo-. Tiene que hacer un largo viaje.»
“Get your things together,” he told her. “You have to take a long trip.”

Fue así como la llevaron a Macondo.
That was how they took her to Macondo.

Mira, nadie ha dicho que los conservadores quisieran usar Fernando del Carpio como cebo para matar a los liberales de la familía Buendía, pero, que pasó?

Or are the mysteries just beginning?
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Sat Dec 25, 2021 12:30 pm

Fernanda del Carpio:
Estaba "reina de Madagascar" en carnaval en Macondo, y hubo una matanza, en la cual Aureliano Segundo la conocí. Úrsula se ocupó de ella como si fuera hija. Fernanda regresó a su aldea natal. Aureliano Segunda la buscaba por seis meses y la halló y la llevó a Macondo para ser su esposa.

Entendimiento del texto
Hay dos cosas, que son casi iguales, que me dieron cuenta para descifrar el texto y conjuntar la historia:
Hay muchos párafos largos. Las primeras y últimas oraciones, muchas veces son claves para seguir el hilo. También, los primeros y últimos párrafos de los capítulos son claves.

Simplemente leyendo el libro por si solo me ayudó mucho el entendimiento. Es decir, sin audios, sin diccionarios, sin distracciones. No es simplemente más tiempo para descifrar las cosas, sino también la visualización de la estructura del texto.

Finalmente, los capítulos largos sin nombre, los párrafos largos, las vueltas de la narración, todos son fundamentales en la magnificiencia de la historia.

Transition to English. Could Cien años de soledad be written in a simpler, more reader friendly way? Sure, but that would diminish its greatness. Similarly, I've been reading the El quijote graded readers. I finished the first one again yesterday. I found new places where it was funny, but I can't help but sometimes feel the story loses a great deal in the simplification.

In a thread on learning the exceptions first, we wandered into baseball, T-ball, fastball. Can one learn to hit a fastball without having years of success with T-ball, softball, underhand pitches, etc? Yes. Skipping T-ball doesn't mean you have to start with 105 mile-per-hour pitches either. There's a great deal of delayed gratification involved, but M. Scott Peck in The Road Less Traveled says delayed gratification is an important factor in the development of humans as spiritual beings.
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby ozymandias » Sun Dec 26, 2021 9:45 am

luke wrote:Fernanda del Carpio:
Estaba "reina de Madagascar" en carnaval en Macondo, y hubo una matanza, en la cual Aureliano Segundo la conocí. Úrsula se ocupó de ella como si fuera hija. Fernanda regresó a su aldea natal. Aureliano Segunda la buscaba por seis meses y la halló y la llevó a Macondo para ser su esposa.


Era (?) (not sure what you wanted to say here) la "reina de Madagascar" en el carnaval de Macondo, y hubo una matanza, en la cual Aureliano Segundo la conoció. Úrsula se ocupó de ella como si fuera su hija. Fernanda regresó a su aldea natal. Aureliano Segundo la estuvo buscando / buscó durante seis meses y la encontró. Después, la llevó a Macondo para ser su esposa.


Entendimiento del texto
Hay dos cosas, que son casi iguales, que me dieron cuenta para descifrar el texto y conjuntar la historia:
Hay muchos párafos largos. Las primeras y últimas oraciones, muchas veces son claves para seguir el hilo. También, los primeros y últimos párrafos de los capítulos son claves.


COMPRENSIÓN del texto
Hay dos cosas, que son casi iguales, que me permitieron descifrar el texto y conjuntar (?) (''conjuntar'' doesn't fit here, but I don't know the original meaning you wanted to convey, so I can't give you an alternative) la historia:
Hay muchos párrafos largos. Las primeras y últimas oraciones, muchas veces son claves para seguir el hilo. También, los primeros y últimos párrafos de los capítulos son claves.


Simplemente leyendo el libro por si solo me ayudó mucho el entendimiento. Es decir, sin audios, sin diccionarios, sin distracciones. No es simplemente más tiempo para descifrar las cosas, sino también la visualización de la estructura del texto.


Simplemente leyendo el libro por solo me ayudó mucho a comprenderlo. Es decir, sin audios, sin diccionarios, sin distracciones. No es simplemente más tiempo para descifrar las cosas, sino también la visualización de la estructura del texto.
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