Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

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MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
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Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat May 27, 2023 6:53 pm

luke wrote:In a Spanish only thread, this Chat GPT output was presented. I'd like to say a bit more about it, but in English:
My apologies, Luke, for not getting back to you sooner on your thorough and thoughtful reply.

The reason I make this query to ChatGPT was a search for the use of specific examples that anyone learning to write could study or use as models. Because much of the force of good writing comes from specific details, and beginning writers often struggle to either understand this or put into specific details.

Great writers, I assumed, abound in specific details, and would be good sources for examples.

As it turned out, ChatGPT was, at least for its first response, not a very good student, as your critique pointed out so well. It generalized from one example to the whole, assumed what was the case in one novel would be the case in others, and so on.
luke wrote:This is the statement that made me want to write a response. The yellow butterflies are associated with Mauricio Babilonia and they do follow Meme after his demise, but I didn't notice them appearing as any other character was approaching death. Even with Mauricio Babilonia, they are there from the start and appear to be more of a sign of his animal magnetism and their gradual disappearance into the water wheels of the steamship as Meme is being taken to the convent are more indicative that she will never again experience that animal magetism.

I am going to use, with your permission, this observation of yours about one of ChatGPT's conclusions in order to refine the prompt:
This is the statement that made me want to write a response. The yellow butterflies are associated with Mauricio Babilonia and they do follow Meme after his demise, but I didn't notice them appearing as any other character was approaching death. Even with Mauricio Babilonia, they are there from the start and appear to be more of a sign of his animal magnetism and their gradual disappearance into the water wheels of the steamship as Meme is being taken to the convent are more indicative that she will never again experience that animal magetism.


Here is the new prompt and the reply:
Please note that the yellow butterflies are associated with Mauricio Babilonia and they do follow Meme after his demise, but I didn't notice them appearing as any other character was approaching death. Even with Mauricio Babilonia, they are there from the start and appear to be more of a sign of his animal magnetism and their gradual disappearance into the water wheels of the steamship as Meme is being taken to the convent are more indicative that she will never again experience that animal magetism. Please comment and/or refine your answer.
ChatGPT

You are correct, and I apologize for the oversight in my previous response. In Gabriel García Márquez's novel "Cien años de soledad" (One Hundred Years of Solitude), the yellow butterflies are indeed associated with Mauricio Babilonia, and they follow him after his demise. They serve as a symbol of his presence, his animal magnetism, and his connection to nature.

The yellow butterflies do not appear as a premonition or sign of impending death for other characters in the novel. Instead, they primarily represent Mauricio's vibrant and captivating aura. Their gradual disappearance into the water wheels of the steamship as Meme is being taken to the convent suggests that she will no longer experience the passion and intensity represented by Mauricio.

The use of specific details, such as the presence and behavior of the yellow butterflies, enhances the magical realism and symbolic elements in Márquez's work. It showcases his mastery in intertwining the natural world with the characters and their experiences, creating a rich and multi-layered narrative.

Better certainly, but more improvement IMHO is possible.
Thanks, again, Luke, for your reply to this.
4 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

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luke
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Sun May 28, 2023 4:41 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:
luke wrote:In a Spanish only thread, this Chat GPT output was presented. I'd like to say a bit more about it, but in English:
My apologies, Luke, for not getting back to you sooner on your thorough and thoughtful reply.

As it turned out, ChatGPT was, at least for its first response, not a very good student, as your critique pointed out so well. It generalized from one example to the whole, assumed what was the case in one novel would be the case in others, and so on.
Yes, from what you said your were looking for, it sounded like ChatGPT misinterpreted the question.
luke wrote:The yellow butterflies are associated with Mauricio Babilonia and they do follow Meme after his demise, but I didn't notice them appearing as any other character was approaching death. Even with Mauricio Babilonia, they are there from the start and appear to be more of a sign of his animal magnetism and their gradual disappearance into the water wheels of the steamship as Meme is being taken to the convent are more indicative that she will never again experience that animal magetism.

MorkTheFiddle wrote:I am going to use this observation of yours about one of ChatGPT's conclusions in order to refine the prompt:

Here is the new prompt and the reply:
Please note that the yellow butterflies are associated with Mauricio Babilonia and they do follow Meme after his demise, but I didn't notice them appearing as any other character was approaching death. Even with Mauricio Babilonia, they are there from the start and appear to be more of a sign of his animal magnetism and their gradual disappearance into the water wheels of the steamship as Meme is being taken to the convent are more indicative that she will never again experience that animal magetism. Please comment and/or refine your answer.
ChatGPT

You are correct, and I apologize for the oversight in my previous response. In Gabriel García Márquez's novel "Cien años de soledad" (One Hundred Years of Solitude), the yellow butterflies are indeed associated with Mauricio Babilonia, and they follow him after his demise. They serve as a symbol of his presence, his animal magnetism, and his connection to nature.

The yellow butterflies do not appear as a premonition or sign of impending death for other characters in the novel. Instead, they primarily represent Mauricio's vibrant and captivating aura. Their gradual disappearance into the water wheels of the steamship as Meme is being taken to the convent suggests that she will no longer experience the passion and intensity represented by Mauricio.

The use of specific details, such as the presence and behavior of the yellow butterflies, enhances the magical realism and symbolic elements in Márquez's work. It showcases his mastery in intertwining the natural world with the characters and their experiences, creating a rich and multi-layered narrative.

I was following a bit the rabbit hole of the typo in magnetism, since in my original post I spelled it correctly once and then incorrectly. What drew me to that was ChatGPT putting a lot of verbatim in its response. Sometimes manipulators will do that, btw.

Thanks for giving us the extra details and insight from your experiment!

On the log front
I've ramped up my vocab study since my sister's visit. Over 5% in the "young cards" pipeline right now. I think the reading and supplemental audiobook listening and youtube video watching is helping with vocab.

: 3343 / 3500 3500 pages - Reading
: 7879 / 9388 Essential 5000 Vocabulary
20230528_conteo_5000.png

New insight for FSI review
Lately, with the reviews, my normal approach has been:
Repeat drill until it is done rather accurately or becomes painful.
Move on to the next drill
The following day, if a is done quite accurately, remove it from my todo list, otherwise repeat it until it becomes rather accurate.


A new approach came to me today:
Repeat drill until it is done rather accurately or becomes painful.
Move on to the next drill
The week day, if a is done quite accurately, remove it from my todo list, otherwise repeat it until it becomes rather accurate.


So, in addition to getting good at a drill in the short term (1-2 days), and then repeating that drill again in another run a few months later, use a "week review" to circle back to the drills. During this "week later" review, if the drill is good, then remove it from the todo list. Otherwise, it's still on the todo list and will be seen again in about 1 more week.

I may wait a bit to implement this new idea, as I've got a lot of balls in the air right now, but wanted to save the idea for posterity.
: 8 / 10 FSI 46-55 review (3x)
: 17 / 45 FSI 1-45 review (2x)

Cantemos
I've been trying to learn the Cantemos songs from the Platiquemos course as well. This is a happy song I heard today:
manyitas.png

Live Chat Lunch
I had lunch yesterday with a monolingual Mexican friend. He's not very articulate, but he would probably say the same about me. :lol:
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6 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

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luke
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Languages: English (N). Spanish (intermediate), Esperanto (B1), French (intermediate but rusting)
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:21 pm

Rev up your engines
I enjoyed the narrator/author of Las cuatro puertas. Juan Benito has also done a lot of quality youtube videos if you enjoy his topics, which often involve Jungian psychology, Stoic philosophy, guided meditation, and personal betterment.
las_cuatro_puertas.png

: 281 / 281 Las cuatro puertas

Vocabulary run
Page counting as encouraged me to read a few pages each day, which I might not otherwise be doing.

: 3364 / 3500 3500 pages - Reading
: 8026 / 9376 Essential 5000 Vocabulary

Wrapped up an FSI review right before a big trip
I'll be visiting family and otherwise away from my normal routine for a couple weeks, but I did wrap up the drills in unit 55 this afternoon, so I can tack those units on to the other FSI review bar now:
: 10 / 10 FSI 46-55 review (3x)
: 19 / 45 FSI 1-45 review (2x)

I'm starting to make plans for what comes next. Very exciting.
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10 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

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MorkTheFiddle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2109
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 8:59 pm
Location: North Texas USA
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 11#p133911
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:39 pm

luke wrote:Rev up your engines
I enjoyed the narrator/author of Las cuatro puertas. Juan Benito has also done a lot of quality youtube videos if you enjoy his topics
Jorge Benito?
1 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

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luke
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:42 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:
luke wrote:Rev up your engines
I enjoyed the narrator/author of Las cuatro puertas. Juan Benito has also done a lot of quality youtube videos if you enjoy his topics
Jorge Benito?
That's right. As you see in the Audible image, rather than read in my chicken scratching. :)
2 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

jeffers
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Location: UK
Languages: Speaks: English (N), Hindi (A2-B1)

Learning: The above, plus French (A2-B1), German (A1), Ancient Greek (?), Sanskrit (beginner)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19785
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby jeffers » Mon Jun 12, 2023 10:58 am

luke wrote:New insight for FSI review
Lately, with the reviews, my normal approach has been:
Repeat drill until it is done rather accurately or becomes painful.
Move on to the next drill
The following day, if a is done quite accurately, remove it from my todo list, otherwise repeat it until it becomes rather accurate.


A new approach came to me today:
Repeat drill until it is done rather accurately or becomes painful.
Move on to the next drill
The week day, if a is done quite accurately, remove it from my todo list, otherwise repeat it until it becomes rather accurate.

My weak memory tells me that at some point in the past you spend some time using Audacity to break up the half hour lessons into separate exercises. Is that correct? I'm just starting back on FSI for French, and I'm still working with the original half hour sessions and just doing them in order. Your way seems better. The problem I would have with it is that I'm working on FSI while driving, so I can't be faffing about with repeating single lessons, etc. Still, I'm always interested in finding a better way. When/where do you do your FSI drills?
2 x
Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien (roughly, the perfect is the enemy of the good)

French SC Books: 0 / 5000 (0/5000 pp)
French SC Films: 0 / 9000 (0/9000 mins)

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luke
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Languages: English (N). Spanish (intermediate), Esperanto (B1), French (intermediate but rusting)
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Fri Jun 16, 2023 11:17 am

jeffers wrote:My weak memory tells me that at some point in the past you spend some time using Audacity to break up the half hour lessons into separate exercises. Is that correct? I'm just starting back on FSI for French, and I'm still working with the original half hour sessions and just doing them in order. Your way seems better. The problem I would have with it is that I'm working on FSI while driving, so I can't be faffing about with repeating single lessons, etc. Still, I'm always interested in finding a better way. When/where do you do your FSI drills?

I do them mostly on walks and in the car. I did split up a lot of the lessons. For Spanish, there's a website called LiveLingua that did a good job of splitting the 30 minute tapes into smaller exercise chunks. That would save most of the Audacity editing.

Doing them at the desk with the manual is not a bad approach either. I would probably have made faster progress if I looked at the manuals more frequently.
3 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

jeffers
Blue Belt
Posts: 843
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:12 pm
Location: UK
Languages: Speaks: English (N), Hindi (A2-B1)

Learning: The above, plus French (A2-B1), German (A1), Ancient Greek (?), Sanskrit (beginner)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19785
x 2746
Contact:

Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby jeffers » Fri Jun 16, 2023 12:27 pm

luke wrote:
jeffers wrote:My weak memory tells me that at some point in the past you spend some time using Audacity to break up the half hour lessons into separate exercises. Is that correct? I'm just starting back on FSI for French, and I'm still working with the original half hour sessions and just doing them in order. Your way seems better. The problem I would have with it is that I'm working on FSI while driving, so I can't be faffing about with repeating single lessons, etc. Still, I'm always interested in finding a better way. When/where do you do your FSI drills?

I do them mostly on walks and in the car. I did split up a lot of the lessons. For Spanish, there's a website called LiveLingua that did a good job of splitting the 30 minute tapes into smaller exercise chunks. That would save most of the Audacity editing.

Doing them at the desk with the manual is not a bad approach either. I would probably have made faster progress if I looked at the manuals more frequently.


When I was first working on FSI, I would do it on walks but almost always look at the manual on a tablet to verify the words I couldn't quite make out, but currently I'm reviewing while driving and haven't looked anything up for ages. When I get "dialogues for participation" I just take that as another opportunity to repeat what the speaker is saying rather than attempting to speak the other part.
2 x
Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien (roughly, the perfect is the enemy of the good)

French SC Books: 0 / 5000 (0/5000 pp)
French SC Films: 0 / 9000 (0/9000 mins)

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luke
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Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:09 pm
Languages: English (N). Spanish (intermediate), Esperanto (B1), French (intermediate but rusting)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16948
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby luke » Fri Jun 16, 2023 10:53 pm

jeffers wrote:When I was first working on FSI, I would do it on walks but almost always look at the manual on a tablet to verify the words I couldn't quite make out, but currently I'm reviewing while driving and haven't looked anything up for ages. When I get "dialogues for participation" I just take that as another opportunity to repeat what the speaker is saying rather than attempting to speak the other part.

I just looked at AnkiWeb and they have FSI French decks. Looks like one deck per unit. I wonder if those would be of any use.
3 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

DaveAgain
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1961
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:26 am
Languages: English (native), French & German (learning).
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... &start=200
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Re: Luke's very confused Spanish Learning Log

Postby DaveAgain » Tue Jun 20, 2023 6:49 am

I've just come across a mention of books hidden within Don Quixote in Franco-era Spain, that I thought might interest you:
... my father unearthed a curious nugget. it was apparently a copy of Don Quixote. The skinny nobleman on the cloth cover, the first chapter with the ancient shield, the occasional stew of beef more often than lamb, the eggs and abstinence on Saturdays. But where chapter 2 should have been, another work began instead: Das Kapital. The smile on my father's face grew unusually wide. He lit up. The combined edition of Cervantes and Marx wasn't an exotic printing mistake, but a clandestine book, a living reminder, a ghost from the same years, ambiances, whispers, and deceits he had lived through as a young man.

Quote from Papyrus.
3 x


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