Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Chinese Galaxy

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Re: Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Chinese Galaxy

Postby outcast » Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:15 pm

I have not tried slow audio in any language, mainly because I did not have the equipment to slow it down or just too lazy to do so. Generally I would find easier listening material before slowing harder material down. Or as you said, repeat listen the hard material many many times. When text is available read it many times, almost half-memorization.

What I cannot do is subtitles when learning language. I find the exercise far more distracting for me and therefore nullifying all the benefits and then some. I then get addicted to the subtitles and all my concentration is on reading them. This is especially the case in Chinese, where I get left behind sorting out some straggler character I did not know, and as such miss the rest of the line. More of a distraction than their are worth.
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Re: Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Chinese Galaxy

Postby outcast » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:23 pm

I'm in yet another small frustrating episode with Chinese, I just wish they would stop at some point. Not because I can't get through them but because I am getting a little impatient to be honest. I'm sure I will feel an upswing shortly, it's just a bit grating.

Chinese is trying very hard to break me, I know, all languages do. German came the closest though I attribute that to the fact it was the first language I tried on my own, in those darker moments than now, I did not know there was light at the end.

I had a did not understand moment yesterday ordering hot dogs of all things. The first one in some months. After paying, the girl asked me an unintelligible question. I ask for a redo. Still don't understand. Third time, the girl never varies her question, so even though it sounds cowardly I do lay a bit of blame on her because she did not try to use another phrase or even use her hands, she just resigned herself. I was not too pleased but could do nothing to force her and it would also not be right.

But after I had my meal I could not help but go back and explain to her that I wanted to know what she asked so that I can improve my chinese, and so that when I returned in the future I could understand what the question was. I asked her to type the question on my phone, she was about to then seemed to freeze. Then gave the device to another employee who then returned to me. I asked this employee what was the question, she said there was no question. Seeing I would get no further I informed them that I was sorry for the trouble but that I was just trying to improve my learning and if one does not ask questions one cannot improve.

It is a common complaint among foreigners learning Chinese in mainland China that for some strange reason, many Chinese seem unwilling, or some maybe even find it difficult, to paraphrase or use different phrases to restate a question or statement. Like they seem bent on asking the same way and not deviating much at all from the original. Specially at shops, so it suggests it is some sort of scripted part.
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Re: Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Chinese Galaxy

Postby outcast » Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:21 pm

There comes a time in a fireworks show where you know the end is near: you have been watching for a good 20 minutes the beautiful show, well-orchestrated, coordinated, and spaced out. But suddenly the fireworks just came fast and furious in a torrent of light and noise, they are throwing out the kitchen sink at you and pulling all the stops. Now or never.

Same thing with my Chinese now. Out are the specific studying programs, the special focuses on one aspect, the detailed review of something else. I am now pushing all the buttons, and admittedly somewhat randomly. I am just review all the books, reading all the articles and passages I can find, listening to Chinese at any "dead time" when nothing else can be done. Attending classes, meeting every day with Chinese friends and talking with them for an hour or two. Reviewing Anki cards. I am now putting in all the HSK plus other source's proverbs in the system. I am even trying to have "only think in Chinese moments" at certain points in the day. Besides my computer all other electronic gadgets are in Chinese.

To sum up, I am just living in 80% Chinese, the other 10% being Korean study, 8% English I have to use occassionaly, and 2% other (mainly German last couple of days).

I am just simply throwing at my brain Chinese all the time, no techniques and no system, just using the damn language. Words are sticking a bit more, that is for sure. Even stock phrases are coming out. I think I will keep this up.
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Re: Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Chinese Galaxy

Postby outcast » Sat Nov 26, 2016 12:25 am

Some major developments on the language front for me. Of course we all know that nothing in language learning happens in an instant (except for those rare "aha!" moments, which are probably the result of much effort for a sustained period of time anyway), but since we are human and we like milestones and landmarks, we make them up right?

I have been doing the scorched Earth thing now for a couple of weeks, and it works. But again, I think it only works when you have already gone through the material at least twice, thus you can just rapidly go from source to source. Talking to natives, listening to audio at every turn. With the amount of vocabulary I have to retain to progress (I need to go from 4,000 to probably 9,000 to 10,000 words to fully reach high B2-C1 in the next year or two), I think the only way is to just continually and extensively be exposed. Many words at this level only have one specific use or collocation, and so often you have to learn an entire phrase (for example the English "did a yeoman's job", it does nothing for you to learn "yeoman" by itself since you will almost certainly never use it independently).

I have started level 8 Boya Chinese. According to my teachers, level 6 HSK and Boya difficulty of texts are somewhat equivalent to native Chinese middle schoolers' texts, somewhere around 8th or 9th grade, though the topics may be fully for adults. Seeing the increase in difficulty of level 8 texts, which make use of far more unusual modern vocabulary (there even some entries now I did not know the English word for upon first encounter... 鞘 as in a "sheath" or "scabbard" for a sword!, because I have been learning foreign languages for a while now my vocabulary for nouns in English has probably dropped), and also the more unusual grammar usages and the peppering of classical Chinese, I would estimate the texts I am reading now are for sure Chinese high school level at the 10th or 11 grade, and very much near C1 level internationally. Again, this is just reading, not listening and certainly not speaking. Speaking of speaking...

On the speaking front it continues to be a frustrating slog but I have come to accept it now. Since it is a completely different language from my home base, the phenomenon of being very fluent in familiar topics but at the same time virtually A0 in another is amplified enormously. For example I did not know how to say "don't tie up that plastic bag!" because I did not know what verb was correct, I used 系 "ji4" like for shoelaces (later learned it should have been 扣 "kou4" or 扎 "zha/za1", depending on who you ask)... all while I was talking about the social situation in North America and Europe with the recent developments! Unfortunately this will probably continue until all the "holes" in every day speech are plugged through sheer exposure to each situation one by one, I cannot and will not be able to rely on my native languages to "guess" what to say as I can in German or French.

The above is one of the major reasons I have demurred changing my status in the language.

However... there comes a point where you also can't be so modest it actually turns into conceit! Many people could meet me now, and having seen my profile without reading my logs, all while watching me have a lengthy convo with native speakers, they would conclude in am a prick for underestimating my level... What is left for the rest of us, then? That kind of reaction.

I have realized I cannot, and perhaps I should not, wait until I can express everything accurately (even in daily speech), in order to change my status. And ultimately, it is just an assessment! Not life or death, some people will agree, others will say I am overstating my skills, others that I am grossly underestimating them. The important thing is to be as honest as possible.

I would estimate I am at a high B1 overall, with my habit of rating my skill in a language based on the level of my weakest skill. I am probably a good B2 in most areas now, but not strong B2 or B2+. The Level 8 stuff is as difficult for me now as level 4 stuff was one year ago. But because I am a high B1 level, and B2 is the threshold I use for claiming a "basic fluency" in a language, I am very close and I think I will change my status regardless of progress from now to then, around the new year.

As I said at the beginning of this now half-discursive post, nothing in language learning happens in an instant, and going from "learning" to "speaking" status is certainly the poster boy of this phenomenon. We all like milestones however, and when I do change my profile, it will feel mighty good!
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Re: Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Chinese Galaxy

Postby outcast » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:00 am

Not much more to report here, recently reading a piece from a novel by 刘心武, it is a challenging read and it does feel like a real piece of literature. It's odd because there just seems to be something universal about the nature of erudite writings from men of letters, that cuts across languages: they sometimes make use of very short sentences, yet these sentences do not seem as if written by children. It is an effect I have marveled at. They are able to squeeze out an incredible amount of information from a single object: where I would only be able to write a short sentences about describing an "old, rotting closet", they will say "a wardrobe closet of considerable bulk wearing the medals and scars of of venerable age, of brawny wood planks that exude a sense of safety, giving off the musty yet sweet smell of the years layered into one heavy invisible broth." (I just entirely made up that sentence, but you get my point). I used to see it all as filler in order to pad the books. Maybe some of it is, but it is deeper than that, at least with the really good writers. Anyhow, I find some common threads across the languages, in spite of the major difference in other respects.

I wasn't even aware that in this book I was in fact reading what would amount to literature aimed at average to even above average educated natives. I can say is that when I read it the first time, I get the main point, and many of the details, but I can't really piece the story together in the deeper sense, in other words, what is the writer getting at with all of it. It's ok because at times I don't achieve this in English either, I need a second or third read. But occasionally I do get "implicit meaning", this is now starting to happen more in Chinese. I am sure many other details are still above my head, but I am happy that the not-so-obvious is not starting to slowly become more obvious.
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Re: Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Chinese Galaxy

Postby outcast » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:27 am

I've been texting in German the last couple of days, and besides confirming the obvious (my level is even worse than it was the last time I used German significantly 6 months ago), an interesting comment was made: my German friend, when I wrote "Jetzt habe ich doch ihre Schönheit gefunden", speaking about the local girls (because in the past I wasn't that attracted to Asian women, but now I see how beautiful they are), said this sentence clearly felt "Chinese" (she actually does Chinese studies as major). I am not sure if this is right or if she is just having a "placebo" moment (we both so heavily involved in all things Chinese we see Chinese indications where there are none), but for the moment assuming it is true, both unsettling and exciting... On the one hand it means my thoughts are a bit better aligned to Chinese, on the other I have lost my sense for German, temporarily at least. In February 2017, I plan to return to German and get it back over the top again.

This "chinese feel" for a German sentence may not be unfounded. I was having dinner yesterday with Chinese friends at a restaurant with food from Xinjiang (the large western province in China were Eastern culture and Central Asian cultures meet, with a whiff of western rolled into it, the food was amazing), and I mentioned to them, that for the first time in the last month or so I am spontaneously thinking alone in Chinese. Mainly short sentences, but it is happening more and more. And it is not as if I decide "now I will think in Chinese"... I have tried to do this in the last two or three months, maybe now this is starting to have wider fruits. But I really think it is just the fact that I have been here long enough now. I just don't find the language that hard anymore. What I find hard is to achieve my super exacting goal of beautifully crafted Chinese sentences (on the spot) when talking about deep topics in history, business, etc. That is a lofty goal, I do know... But the general language, I'm fine, even though still my tones strung together at times bother me (as does me "x" pinyin sound, I just detest how it comes out sometimes, it almost sounds like an apical "s").

But still when broaching new subjects there are many words I don't know. Last night, walking outside under a waning fullish moon, we started talking about all things 超自然 (supernatural). I did not know this word, even though now it seems so obvious it would be that word. But I learned many words in this subject from 诅咒 (curse), to 木乃伊 (mummy, which I had seen once then forgot), and also apparently no direct word for "mind reader" (always according to my Chinese friend), and that one can say "那个人会读心术". Anyway, this is an example of a topic I had little exposure to but now I am better prepared to understand it when brought up and be able to add my personal views.
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Re: Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Chinese Galaxy

Postby outcast » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:04 pm

The words are not easy anymore, either very low frequency like 佞臣 (a self-serving toady of a feudal court),阖府 (an honorific for your entire family unit), written-only like 蓦然 (written form of "suddenly"), 眺望 (to look into afar), semi-classical to classical 遐迩 (near and far),焉 (classical particle and preposition with quite a few meanings), and simply tons and tons of proper nouns, especially animal and bird species which I won't bother to list here. There are also difficult to grasp words, like 城府 which I am only figuring out after talking to four different people about it. It means something like "how complex your mindset and behavior are or become when you interact with others in the real world". I feel that in short, if you are a bit of a calculating person when it comes to personal relationships, and if you tend to micro-analyze all problems and situations, and then your behavior tends to be different according to what goals you have or with whom you deal with (sometimes because you want to hide your real intentions, or you want to gain an advantage), THEN you can say that person 城府很深。 Wheew.... got it....

Then you have the actual geographic names, of places, cities, towns, landmarks in China. Many have unique characters for themselves: 嵛, 沣水, 堌, etc... Tons of new characters.

And then my pet peeve: learning the proper names of people, current and historical. I just find it so wasteful of time, but at some point I will have to sit down and sort of memorize, for the sake of completeness, the names of people like Gandhi, Mandela, Napoleon, Queen Victoria, Julius Caesar, Newton, Da Vinci, Queen Isabella, Hirohito, Beatles, Taylor Swift, Pele and Maradona, Michael Jordan, Beyonce, Giselle, Mozart, Hitler, Mussolini, Hussein, Picasso, Stephen Hawking, Djokovic, and on and on and on.... you see the huge challenge to relearn everyone's name! Chinese is really the ultimate language when it comes to vocabulary sheer size it seems to me.

And then just my usual reading speed (which is better and better but still not quite to where I want to be), and oral (same story). So right now is just that endless slog up the B2-C1 hill for me. I have been very busy to post updates, but also I am getting to the level where progress can't be measured daily or even by a week, only per month, if not more. So I just don't have that much to say with Chinese anymore in short periods of time as I did in the past.

I took a couple of online tests for Chinese, and I got 97% on one and 67/70 in another, they both said "I am an advanced learner" lol. I know online tests like those are terrible at estimating your language level (I have taken them before for German and French, and always gotten C1, which is what I got for Chinese this time basically), so they can't be right. But they still made me, may I dare say, feel accomplished of what a great effort I have made and how far I have come.

Last few days I have been reflecting that indeed, being to engage with Chinese, and live in China, on one's own, in their language, and with increasingly relative ease and spontaneity, is a great accomplishment. I have been writing this log since 2013 so at this point I almost think I deserve for once to give myself big kudos!

New years is coming, and as I said, I will finally change my status with Chinese and dare to claim I am a "speaker" with basic fluency. I do feel more confident it is an honest assessment now. Changing that status on the profile is not something that happens overnight of course and is purely symbolic, but humans love symbolism, so it will be a big moment in my life for me. I can't lie!
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Re: Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Chinese Galaxy

Postby Expugnator » Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:35 pm

I'm really happy for you. You've showed us that it's doable and how to go about it. My Chinese this year has dwindled while other languages trived, but I'll keep going and maybe 2017 will see some concrete improvement.
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Re: Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Chinese Galaxy

Postby outcast » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:07 am

Expugnator wrote:I'm really happy for you. You've showed us that it's doable and how to go about it. My Chinese this year has dwindled while other languages trived, but I'll keep going and maybe 2017 will see some concrete improvement.


Thank you. It is doable, if you bang your head enough times on the Great Wall, maybe it will crack a bit. :D

Don't feel bad about Chinese having an off year. For me that was 2014. If you go back on this log, I started rolling in 2013, then I had a terrible few months in late 2013, everything was going wrong, and that really killed my momentum. Then I said I would resume in 2014, but I ended up "disappearing" for a year, the huge gap in my log reflecting that. Those things are part of the journey and in fact what make moments like today all the more sweet I dare say. Your Chinese come this day next year will be much better. What you do with multiple-language study is legendary in language circles already!

And I don't really regret it. I was reading the entire thread about changing things. Well, there are a few minor things I would definitely change, but the big picture, I feel pretty lucky actually. Could I have reached this level in 2016 had I not taken that year off? Probably, but 2014 was big for my French and German because I met several now friends, and those two languages really thrived up to a very solid B2 in that time. And I would not have met the people I met here in China in this last year plus. Other people, yes, but not my current FRIENDS.

This log is not a "how to learn Chinese efficiently", the whole universe knows that is not what you see displayed here. But it does reflect two things I am happy about: I am determined and stubborn, I keep at it (number 1). And this trait does pay off and it can for everyone else here too. And number 2, I have had TIME to do this, most people have much busier lives than me (and still achieve!). But I also took advantage of my chance to do it. I've had to sacrifice some aspects of my life, but I feel I have tried my best and will absolutely never have any regrets along the lines of "if only I had worked harder, or done a few more hours when in China".... No. I have give it my complete all. I can live with the results. So if you have a chance, just take it and especially try not to spend so much time trying on alchemizing the perfect language learning potion. Don't spend too much time on how to learn and spend more time on just learning, somehow. Fumble around a bit, that actually is a good memory builder. It's how children learn too.

Now I have to keep at it. By no means are we done. I do get the feeling now talking to Chinese and "serious" foreign learners of Chinese that my level is almost always higher than the other foreigner, or the "best" Chinese speaking foreigner that a native has personally encountered, but I can't let that fool me. I am far from truly fluent. The marathon from my rawish B2 currently up to C1 is long, and will try my patience. I will take probably a couple of years, to be honest. Especially since now German will get some time too, and after HSK6 in march, maybe even become my primary target as I work on the march to C1 in this language as well. All this as I slowly chip away at Korean, and then later on Hindi will take time from both Chinese and German for a good few months. But I am hoping that having read that "regrets" thread, I don't just let the language go. Chinese needs to be part of my daily life, and I am thinking of ways to ensure that.

I think I have entered the outer reaches of the Chinese Galaxy after 3+ light years, but there is so much more exploring to do! ;)

Good luck to you in 2017!
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Re: Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Chinese Galaxy

Postby outcast » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:09 am

The last 3-4 days I have not done a lot of formal intensive study, I really have had to take care of many formal preparations for my departure since the university will go on vacation. Most things are done and after today I should have a lot of time to do some heavy studying. All my friends are posting vacation pictures on social media. I am jealous, but also I feel more determined to study the winter holidays away here in China and try to learn the most I can. Besides the preparations, I have used this time to really start thinking seriously about this year and next year's plans: how I will achieve my language goals (strategy, time, etc), at the same time I accomplish my financial goals (which are lofty), in order to then fully be able to take advantage of my time in India, and PERHAPS, other places too!. So I have been doing a lot of research on the internet about locations, languages, accommodations, flights, tuition, exchange programs... I will give details later. I have been doing a lot of networking at home in order to find the best possible jobs to be able to fulfill my plans. So lots of number crunching to see if the math will work.

I have also restarted German, by doing some listening, and a bit of reading. I also am doing a detailed review of pronunciation. I will expound on this in my German log at in the next few days when I update it.

I have used Chinese to take care of the many errands and paperwork. I feel strange about my performance. Overall I am not too pleased, I felt my output just wasn't that good actually. But I forgive myself somewhat for this due to one factor, and I hope no offense is taken, but I feel it is true: Chinese at least in this area of the country have ABSOLUTELY ZERO PATIENCE for slower than ultra-high speed speech.
I get it, I see my teachers, and I see the postal workers, and the restaurant servers all very busy, but they just do not let you finish a sentence. I have given up on this a long time ago, but in order to compensate I will try to speak extremely quickly, even quicker than my normal rate, which is already quite fast. So not surprisingly my output breaks down a bit in terms of grammar, structure, vocab selection. There were however a few times where it all came out flawless, so maybe I should remember this more than anything else. In any event, my Chinese learning the last 3 days has been strictly real world and practical.

I have also used these few days in developing a crude "scale" of maintenance for my languages in the future. I have finally settled on 10 languages being a place I can still have a life and keep languages at a fairly high level, but that is my guess only and I probably am totally wrong. Anyhow, 2 are native languages (English, Spanish), 4 are my "core" languages in which I shoot for solid C1 long-term (German, French, Mandarin Chinese, Portuguese), and 4 are my "strategic" languages (Hindi, Korean, Italian, Indonesian), where I want a high B1 to low B2 level (but better is welcome!). Based on the target level and the language difficulty ("Cat 1,2,3...") relative to my mother tongues, this is the preliminary maintenance list on a 7-level scale:

MAINTENANCE LEVEL

EX (extreme: 120+ minutes) - Mandarin Chinese: vocabulary base completely different, tonal language, and the reading and writing system which are severely high maintenance.
IN (intensive: 100-120 minutes) - Korean, German: one is a Cat 5 language with a near B2 goal, agglutinative with a different writing system, the other is a Cat 2 language with some vocabulary base differences and a solid C1 level desired.
EN (enhanced: 80-120 minutes) - Hindi: Cat 4 language at a B2 level goal, writing system, cultural differences.
SU (sustained: 60- 80 minutes) - French, Indonesian: C1 level goal but studied longer than all other languages, also very close to a mother tongue. Also would get "family maintenance" via Portuguese and Italian; Indonesian has solid B1 to near B2 goal, different language family but supposedly easy at lower levels of study
MO (moderate: 40- 60 minutes) - Portuguese: Spanish is a mother tongue, therefore I get a large "family maintenance" discount, but C1 goal means I still have to put some time on it so as to avoid the Devil (Portuhnol)
RE (recreational: 20-40 minutes) - Italian: B1 to B2 goal, studied as child. Get heavy family discount through 3 other Romance languages, one being a mother tongue. Area to watch is pronunciation and false friends.
MI (minimal: less than 20 minutes) - English, Spanish: native languages, critical period acquired. Use them daily personally, professionally. No real maintenance required except to polish grammar, writing, and enhance vocabulary.

This will probably change as I refine my ideas, but also may change according to my language goals. The one thing I am curious about is Hindi and Indonesian: one is Indo-European, which would suggest it would be as easy or easier for me to acquire than Indonesian, which is totally different family, Australonesian. Yet Indonesian is rated Cat 3 by the Foreign Service, and Hindi a Cat 4. So I am curious which would be harder for me to reach B2 level in.

So... oh, about Chinese. I am almost done with all the books. It will only be review after this, just acquire more vocab and expressions, proverbs. Speed up my reading and really try hard to improve my vocab range when speaking. I will have some time the next few weeks to put some solid work in.
2 x
"I can speak wonderfully and clearly in zero languages, and can also fluently embarrass myself in half a dozen others."

The End of Language learning: 10 / 10000


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