Agorima's log

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Agorima
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Agorima's log

Postby Agorima » Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:55 pm

I have decided to start my own log. I will not link this log to a particular language, because life can be unpredictable.

For Czech language I followed this approach:

- I went through both waves of the Assimil book "Czech with ease" (translated by myself), focusing on the dialogues.
After listening the daily dialogue for 30 minutes, usually I read it for 5 times, in order to improve reading skills.
While this did work in the beginning, in the latter stages of learning, it meant that reading could take up to 15/20 minutes to attempt to correct errors.
Nevertheless, it has been a great starter book for me, and it mostly matches the official language spoken in Moravia, except specific words and slang, obviously. The only outdated words are magnetofon (cassette player), [Francouský] frank (Franc francais) and doporučený [dopis] (registered mail);

- I went through all the dialogues of the book "Czech language course" (Italian version), by keeping the same way of learning.
After going through both waves of the Assimil book, the dialogues were a bit less useful until lesson 16 of 27, with few new words. After that, the difficulty ramped up until the end, when it took almost 30 minutes to read the text 5 times.
At least there was some of the Assimil humour;

- I have started to go through the Czech FSI lessons, by doing one lesson per day. While the lessons are more outdated than Assimil, it can be useful to improve speaking; the goal is not to be 100% perfect, but to be conversational with people.

- I will try to improve also the grammar knowledge, not exactly a walk in the park, with many rules and exceptions, with the above mentioned "Czech language course";

- I have bought the book "Čeština pro cizince" (B2) for getting past B1, if I will ever manage to do so; it's written completely in Czech, so at least you have to complete the Assimil book, before dealing with "Čeština pro cizince" for B1 and B2.
There is a version for the levels A1-A2, but it's not that useful for my purpose.

- for native materials, I do listen the Radiožurnál on the main Czech Radio, but in general the Czech media is speaking about the same argument since February 2020; the continuous scaremongering spread every day is criminal; let's not talk also about the restrictions, the discussion could be neverending;

- To have some fun at the end of the day, I do watch the sitcom "Dva a půl chlapa" (Two and a Half men) on the official Nová TV website.
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Cavesa
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Re: Agorima's log

Postby Cavesa » Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:35 pm

Nice log! I wish you all the best in learning Czech.

Your resources sound solid, I'm looking forward to reading of your progress.

To the media: Yes, you're right that it's horrible to just hear about Covid all the time. There are some other news, but not in sufficient amounts. Perhaps you might like two talkshows on the ceskateleveze.cz ,both are lead by people with very nice Czech, who interview interesting people. Marek Eben and his Na plovárně, that's a very nice option (he's one of the most popular men in the country, famous for his nice Czech, good sense of humour, and extreme politeness). And a second one is Všechnopárty by Karel Šíp. I you want some tv series (with not too colloquial language), I think you might like Zločiny velké Prahy. It's awesome, I am watching it right now, it takes place in the 20's, when Prague suddenly grew by a lot of former villages. The spoken language is more formal, therefore standard, with the few more colloquially talking people being easily guessable.

Btw it is not "Nová TV", it is "Nova", like a supernova. It's short. It's probably still the most popular channel in the country. There are some original czech series on their website too, but most are not that great. But I like crime series in general. If you like them too, Kriminálka Anděl or Specialisté might fit you. As far as I know (I am not a fan), Dva a půl chlapa has a normal quality dubbing, nothing too bad. :-)
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lemme_try
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Re: Agorima's log

Postby lemme_try » Wed Mar 03, 2021 6:09 pm

Could I ask you why did you pick Czech over Russian or Polish? I know it is not a popularity contest, but I really wonder what made you choose Czech.
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Ug_Caveman
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Re: Agorima's log

Postby Ug_Caveman » Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:25 am

Agorima wrote:- I went through both waves of the Assimil book "Czech with ease" (translated by myself), focusing on the dialogues.


:o How long did that take you to accomplish? And did you translate the grammar notes as well as the dialogues?
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Agorima
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Re: Agorima's log

Postby Agorima » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:07 pm

Here I am for an update from the first post.
The log won't be updated every day (and it doesn't make any sense at all), because I am competing only against myself :)

lemme_try wrote:Could I ask you why did you pick Czech over Russian or Polish? I know it is not a popularity contest, but I really wonder what made you choose Czech.


Ug_Caveman wrote: :o How long did that take you to accomplish? And did you translate the grammar notes as well as the dialogues?


To answer to those two questions, I will explain you about how I ended up in learning Czech instead:

-------------------------------

In Greece I started learning Greek language with "Il nuovo greco senza sforzo", I bought it once I understood it was a valuable resource for learning.
There were courses in English, but learning it from English meant introducing a third language acting as a barrier to effective learning.
The best ways to learn it were:
- Studying with the previously mentioned book
- Speaking with native speakers

Fortunately I had Greek colleagues to speak with, and they were impressed.
I remember going to a restaurant in Moschato (a neighbourhood of Athens). Once I spoke Greek to a girl I never met before, without doing any mistakes, she was amazed as well. And this was about 6 months after I landed in Greece.

I never managed to complete the book in Athens because my life suddenly decided to change, but I learned the Athenian accent (the national accent without dialectal features) right before going to CZ.
But it's all over now.

-------------------------------

Once I arrived in Czechia, I quickly realized there were not so many resources to learn Czech (from Italian).
And I did not have any help, unlike in Greece, so I started to translate "Le Tchèque sans peine" after 3 months.
It took me a full year to translate everything (with additional time to correct it).

So let's start now from what I did in the last weeks:

- First of all, I went through all the Czech FSI lessons in 12 days.
While this source alone does not help you very much in learning Czech, it serves its own purpose to boost confidence in speaking, although understanding is another matter. And I am working on that to be able to answer, even if in the beginning I will make unvariably some mistakes;
On the book, there are info about the cost of living right after the end of communism in Czechoslovakia; It's interesting to know that you could buy an house for 250.000 CSK in 1990. 2.500.000 CZK aren't enough to buy an house in the major cities in 2021.

- After that, willing to continue the same learning path, I purchased "Čeština pro cizince" (B1). I don't see this book as a set back to my learning, but another way to consolidate my knowledge of the language.
It's more colloquial than Assimil and FSI, but it's 99% standard Czech (except few words in the 7th lesson, "minulej tejden" and "každej", instead of "minulý týden" and "každý").
- For each lesson there are 4/5 minidialogues, counted as a single dialogue within my daily learning. Then 3/4 dialogues to listen and repeat as usual :)
- There are dialogues with missing words, and I manage to repeat them without writing anything on the book.
- after those, there is a listening dialogue and few handy exercises to listen and repeat similar but different words.
Here you can find a sample of this book, it's very well organized
https://cdn.albatrosmedia.cz/Files/Samp ... %A1zka.pdf

I am at the 9th lesson out of 10, and it's likely I will start attempting to speak with people at the end of this book.

I stopped to listen the Radiožurnál once I listened these exact words: "The vaccine is wonderful".
I wonder how low they can go in following globalists' agenda.
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Agorima
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Re: Agorima's log

Postby Agorima » Thu May 13, 2021 7:15 pm

In the last few weeks, I finished the book "Čeština pro cizince" (B1), by listening all the dialogues.
After that, I opened the web stream of Česká Televize 24, and I was pleased about how I could understand faster speech.
I made great progress, without any doubts.
At ~B1 in passive understanding, it's indeed possible to understand what people are saying (not 100%, because slang is a different language which has its own separate dictionary :lol: ).
Cestina20.cz is the main site where you can find the slang words.

By meeting casual people around the street, I understand how much the lockdown affected mainly the ordinary people.
There are some liars begging money too, but just not giving them any Czech crown will be 100% fine (with the exception of a minority, obviously).

By the way, the diplomatic crisis between Czechia and Russia overshadowed the corona propaganda for a while, to hide the economic disaster (debt went from 17% to at least 85% of the GDP).
I don't have enough information to have my own opinion on the diplomatic crisis, but I'd like to report what I saw on the Czech media:

Politici chtějí restart vztah s Ruskem
The politicians want to restore diplomatic relationship with Russia
(from Česká Televize)

Come on, do you have to put a English word on the title? Don't you have a Czech equivalent word?
And there are many other examples of putting English words in the phrases, like the most recent one:

Ve Spojených státech se mohou očkovat teenageři
The teenagers can be vaccinated in the United States
(from deník.cz)

Or the following song from Chinaski, a known band in Czechia

"Chci váš feedback,
as soon as possible
"
(from Chinaski - Vedoucí, 2006)

I am not putting the whole refrain of the song here (to avoid copyright claims), you can search it on the internet.
And a great part of the text is included on the book I am using now, "Čeština pro cizince" (B2), on the lesson 3.
The song is quite a bad choice for a book teaching Czech. I can understand putting some colloquial words into it, but not this.
I don't like this attitude to mix Czech and English, the Czenglish is not "cool" as some Czechs think.

As a side note, I have now a weekly course to learn basic spoken Czech.
I dealt with 3 books (4 counting the Čeština pro cizince" (A1-A2)) for the basic knowledge, it's yet another way to put my knowledge into practice and correct mistakes along the way.
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Cavesa
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Re: Agorima's log

Postby Cavesa » Fri May 14, 2021 12:10 pm

Have you tried any of the resources I've recommended? You might have liked them more than some of the stuff you're using.

Thanks for the description of the Assimil adaption process, it's good to see it done. I've considered doing it myself for someone, but haven't had the time.

The Czech FSI is not a good thing overall, it describes a totally different world, not just the prices. But I found it excellent as a historical record of impressions on the society decades ago. Everything has changed since. I think I described my impressions in my log, it was really an interesting read. Not sure how it serves for language learning, it seemed much more like a text about a country with a bit of a phrasebookish stuff mixed in, rather than a real language course. Totally different from the other FSIs I've tried.

Congratulations on the comprehension improvement!

The English loanwords are common in many languages, not just Czech. It is always about finding a balance between adapting useful words, and mixing the two languages too much. I think the examples, that you've taken, are actually perfectly ok.

1.No, there is no real equivalent of "restart" that would fit better. The closest ones either have a too different meaning, are too long and uncomfortable, or simply feel outdated and obsolete. Even a dictionary doesn't propose anything good. "Znovu nastartovat" is still a loanword "start", and it is very impractical. "Znovu spustit" is not that precise, because it places importance on the starting part, not on the (computer like) fact that you need to stop it and then start, to really make a cut between two moments. In this case (not trying to discuss politics, but explaining the use of the word), it is clear that the important thing is not to accept russian spies back as soon as possible (their embassy has served as their center for half Europe), but to stop the problem (basically a relict of the occupation) and then start the relationship again and differently, as equals. So, really like a computer restart, not as returning to the same activity.

2.A "teenager" also doesn't have an exact enough equivalent (even though I dislike the word too, I understand you). It is not only because of the language, but also because of the society changements. This age group has changed, its role in the society has changed, and their perception by others has changed in the last decades. The word "adolescent" is the closest equivalent, but it is a loanword too, from French, and not too used anywhere perhaps except medicine. "Dospívající" sounds outdated and also doesn't really cover the same age group. The most common colloquial word "puberťáci" is usually used pejoratively by middle aged and older people, so it shouldn't be in the newspaper. "Mládež" is still used in the name of the ministry for education, but it is too vague as an age category too.

3."feedback as soon as possible", the band is making fun of this corporatist newspeak. But in reality, "feedback" also doesn't have a real Czech equivalent, the closest thing "zpětná vazba" is simply perceived as not too practical, and it is used differently. But yes, ASAP in the middle of Czech is mostly just snobbism. But in this case, the band is clearly reflecting the problem you complain about, and the whole song is making fun of an annoying and mean boss, of the vocab used in many workplaces.

Yes, there are people, who think about the issue as strongly as you (for example the communists put forward a dumb law a few years ago, suggesting absolutely everything would have to be translated to Czech. So, we'd end up with Jindra Hrnčíř instead of Harry Potter :-D And with even fewer opportunities to practice foreign langauges, which is already a huge problem in the Czech Republic, and something communists have always liked. Lack of langauge skills keeps slaves in the country and makes it easier to lie to them about lots of stuff.). But you should remember, that loanwords are an important part of a language's evolution.

While their overuse is indeed annoying, they help talk about newer or newly perceived issues, and about some international stuff (including science. Having purely Czech words at all costs only makes it more complicated to learn the foreign language in the field, and it is annoying and often sounds forced). There are also two forces affecting the change in the last thirty years. First is the influence of English (and other languages), facilitated by normal functioning in the world without the Iron Curtain. The second was also the need to sort of replace various words damaged during the communism. The propaganda had been using a lot of vocab differently, overusing some words, emptying the meaning of many, or replacing it. So, the changes in vocabulary are huge, and loanwords are one of the tools used to make this happen.

Too much loandword use is indeed horrible to listen to, and rightly inspires some questions about the language. But isolation is never the solution. You'll need to accept the loanwords too, even though their Czech pronunciation might cause you comprehension trouble :-D (I know that feeling. English loandwords in French are already bad. And then I was in a lecture, with a Romanian professor with an accent, speaking in French with English loanwords. It was a mess :-D ).
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Agorima
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Re: Agorima's log

Postby Agorima » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:47 pm

It's quite some time I don't write in this forum, and language learning is more difficult to manage this time, because we are near the summer.

I went through all the lessons of the course Čeština pro cizince (B2).
It's interesting that, at the very last lesson, the author introduces the words "ty vole" and "magore" (colloquialism for "crazy"), but not "pičo"? One of the most frequent vulgar words, alongside "ty vole"?
Since the last lesson it's about the crime, not inserting "pičo" is indeed a crime :lol:
On a positive note, the last listening lesson was a real B2 one, I had troubles in understanding that.

A course can't be really perfect, so for the whole trilogy I can give as vote 8 out of 10.

Pros
- lots of exercises, of any type
- teaches you the standard language and the most frequent colloquialisms

Cons
- The song Chinaski - Vedoucí has too many English words (more on the anglicisms later on)
- The song Wabi Daněk - Stromy is fine, but can't be really understood right at the first listening, with the following words at the beginning:

"Dýmem výfukovým zamořenej svět
Uprostřed šňůry vozů pomaloučku vpřed.
"

I saw all the episodes of "Zločiny Velké Prahy". I liked the episodes. I think it could be theorically successful in my native country as well, if adapted in Italian.
I did understand roughly 65% of the dialogues, the obstacles were (as usual) colloquialisms, and the dialect features of the "Common Czech".

After the series, I bought the "Slovník Nespisovné češtiny" (4th edition, 2020), the non-standard Czech dictionary.
I joked a little bit about colloquialisms having a separate dictionary, but this really exists.
It will be useful as a reference for any non-standard word I see / hear on the media.

I have started to see the episodes of "Všechnopárty" (hosted by Karel Šíp) prior to the "new normal" nonsense.
I would recommend seeing this program, as you will laugh even if you will not understand the dialogues 100%
B1+ is enough to understand some jokes :)
As a further note, listening the Czechs making mistakes in their native language, it means there's still hope for me as a language learner :lol:

By the way, the daily work is now:
- listening one episode of "Všechnopárty" (52 minutes) + some live TV
- reading one article of idnes.cz or denik.cz at least 5 times (10 to 30 minutes)
the daily work will inevitably slow down in the summer, but it will likely not be stopped completely.

Cavesa wrote:Thanks for the description of the Assimil adaption process, it's good to see it done. I've considered doing it myself for someone, but haven't had the time.


I would recommend against doing so, as the adaption process will take your mental energy away.
Be prepared to do a slower, normal 2 year process, or give up on this.

As the rest of the comment I saw regarding anglicisms in Czech, please be aware that this process is at more advanced level in Italian, then even a more serious issue.
I can understand putting the original names instead of the adapted ones, but not putting anglicisms every now and then, like "good job", "sorry jako", and so on.
The understanding of the local language will get worse, as well as the foreign one.
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Cavesa
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Re: Agorima's log

Postby Cavesa » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:40 pm

Agorima wrote:I went through all the lessons of the course Čeština pro cizince (B2).
It's interesting that, at the very last lesson, the author introduces the words "ty vole" and "magore" (colloquialism for "crazy"), but not "pičo"? One of the most frequent vulgar words, alongside "ty vole"?
Since the last lesson it's about the crime, not inserting "pičo" is indeed a crime :lol:
On a positive note, the last listening lesson was a real B2 one, I had troubles in understanding that.

A course can't be really perfect, so for the whole trilogy I can give as vote 8 out of 10.

Congratulations on completing the course! That's a huge achievement and I wish most people interested in learning Czech would just do it your way.

There is a very easy explanation to the vulgarism choice in the last unit: Regional differences. Really, coursebooks should stop that nonsense with "Common Czech" and focus more on explaining regionalisms. Majority of the so called "Common Czech" is just the Prague dialect, the "Common Czech" in my opinion doesn't even exist, it is all about regional differences. It would be nice to stop that nonsense, but I'm afraid it's not gonna happen.

"Ty vole" is typically used in Prague or Central Bohemia. "Pičo" (with short i) is used in the Ostrava region. There is also difference between "Pičo" and "Píčo". While they technically mean the same thing ("cunt"), the short version is a bit less vulgar as it replaces "vole" in the Northern Moravia regions. Of course you'll hear it in Prague, usually from the immigrants from that region.

There are basically two sources of vulgarisms in our whole euro-american civilisation, from what I've seen. The defecation related vocab, and sex related vocab. Bohemian vulgarisms are more from the first category, Moravian (and even Slovak!) vulgarisms are more from the second category.


I saw all the episodes of "Zločiny Velké Prahy". I liked the episodes. I think it could be theorically successful in my native country as well, if adapted in Italian.
I did understand roughly 65% of the dialogues, the obstacles were (as usual) colloquialisms, and the dialect features of the "Common Czech".


Glad you liked it. I am sure it could be successful in many settings, basically wherever urbanisation and history lead to such a situation of direct conflict between the countryside becoming a part of a city, and the real culture of the said city.

How curious, I found this series to contain actually very few colloquialisms, compared to many. But perhaps I am less sensitive, as I am native of Prague. Again, it's not Common Czech, it is the Prague dialect. Logically, the whole series is about Prague. If you saw a similar series set in Moravia and done well on the language use side, you would see very different divergences from the Standard Czech. There is no universal "Common Czech", the academics claiming otherwise are just pragocentric ignorants imho.

After the series, I bought the "Slovník Nespisovné češtiny" (4th edition, 2020), the non-standard Czech dictionary.
I joked a little bit about colloquialisms having a separate dictionary, but this really exists.
It will be useful as a reference for any non-standard word I see / hear on the media.

It's good you found it, I found similar dictionaries in my target languages too. They can be useful, but the quality varies a lot. Potraying the colloquial language is harder than the standard one, as it tends to change much faster. So, it is easier to learn stuff that will not be perceived well. But if it is well done and contemporary, it is surely a great tool.

I have started to see the episodes of "Všechnopárty" (hosted by Karel Šíp) prior to the "new normal" nonsense.
I would recommend seeing this program, as you will laugh even if you will not understand the dialogues 100%
B1+ is enough to understand some jokes :)
As a further note, listening the Czechs making mistakes in their native language, it means there's still hope for me as a language learner :lol:

Glad you liked this one too. He's good. If you want another talk show (I already recommended Na Plovárně by Eben), there is 7 pádů Honzy Dědka na iprima.cz, it's good but might be a bit more colloquial than Šíp. And the quality of the individual episodes varies on the guests a lot. I think Na Plovárně is more reliable.

By the way, the daily work is now:
- listening one episode of "Všechnopárty" (52 minutes) + some live TV
- reading one article of idnes.cz or denik.cz at least 5 times (10 to 30 minutes)
the daily work will inevitably slow down in the summer, but it will likely not be stopped completely.

Wow, that's awesome! I must admit I dislike idnes (it is mostly propaganda now, since the prime minister bought it), but it might be a bit easier than some others. If you feel like trying something else, aktualne.cz is good and rather varied, and free.

Cavesa wrote:Thanks for the description of the Assimil adaption process, it's good to see it done. I've considered doing it myself for someone, but haven't had the time.


I would recommend against doing so, as the adaption process will take your mental energy away.
Be prepared to do a slower, normal 2 year process, or give up on this.

Thanks for the warning! I'll probably give up right now before even starting, it may not be worth it. Too bad the Czech market is too worthless to the Assimil company, to do a real adaptation of their courses.


As the rest of the comment I saw regarding anglicisms in Czech, please be aware that this process is at more advanced level in Italian, then even a more serious issue.
I can understand putting the original names instead of the adapted ones, but not putting anglicisms every now and then, like "good job", "sorry jako", and so on.
The understanding of the local language will get worse, as well as the foreign one.


I am well aware of it. And while I share a part of the criticisms, I simply see also value in this. Czech has already gone through one wave of "purification" in the 19th century, and it was a controversial process, in some ways creating more trouble than value.

Even one of your examples here shows, that the foreign word can totally change the meaning of the message and the style. "Sorry jako" is not a normal thing people say. It's a joke that started by this dumb answer being given by the criminal prime minister to journalists asking totally legitimate questions. It is not a serious thing people use, it is a joke about arrogance and a sarcastic reaction to this. It has a totally different meaning and use from the normal Czech equivalent. A person saying "Sorry jako" is not apologizing at all.
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chesneyac
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Re: Agorima's log

Postby chesneyac » Sun Mar 27, 2022 2:42 pm

Hi Agorima,

I'm new to this forum.
I'm very interested in your experience with the Assimil Czech book. I have it in the French and German versions. I really like the approach, but I'm missing out on a lot of the subtleties of the grammar explanations, because there is no English or Italian version and my French and German understanding are elementary.
You say you translated those parts yourself. Wow! What an amazingly dedicated task that must have been! What was your approach? Did you work one lesson at a time, in step with your lesson progress? How would you recommend I approach it?

Thank you.
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