Slow Boat to China (and more!) [ja]

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księżycowy
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Re: Japanese - Finish the Darn Textbook!

Postby księżycowy » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:28 pm

Ok, let's see where I sit with Lesson 6:

Goals Through 2021/04/11
  • Minna no Nihongo - Lesson 6
    • Main Textbook Drills
    • Main Textbook Exercises
    • Main Textbook Dialogue
    • Bunkei Renshucho
    • Hyoujun Mondaishuu
    • Shokyu de Yomeru
    • Choukai Tasuku
  • Minna no Nihongo - Kanji I (Part III)
    • Unit 1
  • Minna no Nihongo - Kanji Renshuuchou
    • Section 1-2
  • Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course
    • Kanji 1-20
  • Pimsleur I
    • Unit 10
    • Unit 11
    • Unit 12


Not too shabby, if I do say so myself! I'm getting my mojo back!

Now, for this week:
Goals Through 2021/05/02
  • Minna no Nihongo - Lesson 6
    • Main Textbook Dialogue
    • Choukai Tasuku
  • Minna no Nihongo - Lesson 7
    • Main Textbook Drills
    • Main Textbook Exercises
    • Main Textbook Dialogue
    • Bunkei Renshucho
    • Hyoujun Mondaishuu
    • Shokyu de Yomeru
    • Choukai Tasuku
  • Minna no Nihongo - Kanji I (Part III)
    • Unit 1
    • Unit 2
  • Minna no Nihongo - Kanji Renshuuchou
    • Section 1-2
  • Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course
    • Kanji 1-25
  • Pimsleur I
    • Unit 11
    • Unit 12
    • Unit 13
    • Unit 14
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Re: Japanese - Finish the Darn Textbook!

Postby księżycowy » Mon May 03, 2021 2:36 pm

Let's take a check of the weather:

Goals Through 2021/05/02
  • Minna no Nihongo - Lesson 6
    • Main Textbook Dialogue
    • Choukai Tasuku
  • Minna no Nihongo - Lesson 7
    • Main Textbook Drills*
    • Main Textbook Exercises
    • Main Textbook Dialogue
    • Bunkei Renshucho
    • Hyoujun Mondaishuu
    • Shokyu de Yomeru
    • Choukai Tasuku
  • Minna no Nihongo - Kanji I (Part III)
    • Unit 1
    • Unit 2
  • Minna no Nihongo - Kanji Renshuuchou
    • Section 1-2
  • Pimsleur I
    • Unit 11
    • Unit 12
    • Unit 13
    • Unit 14

I'm still severally lacking in my kanji study plan, but I hope to pick that up this week. (Hopefully.) I think for my own sanity, I'll put the Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course away for now. I plan to revisit it later, around the same time my textbooks stop going out of their way to give me information on kanji.

I have started going through Lesson 7 of MnN, and have done the bunkei, reibun and renshuu A sections (hence the * above). I'll be moving on to Renshuu B today after a refresher on Renshuu A. So far, I'm not having much trouble getting into the swing of Japanese sentence structure. We'll see how long that lasts. :P
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Re: Japanese - Finish the Darn Textbook!

Postby księżycowy » Tue May 18, 2021 9:26 am

I need to get a bit more consistent.

księżycowy wrote:Goals Through 2021/05/02
  • Minna no Nihongo - Lesson 7
    • Main Textbook Drills*
    • Main Textbook Exercises
    • Main Textbook Dialogue
    • Bunkei Renshucho
    • Hyoujun Mondaishuu
    • Shokyu de Yomeru
    • Choukai Tasuku
  • Minna no Nihongo - Kanji I (Part III)
    • Unit 1
    • Unit 2
  • Minna no Nihongo - Kanji Renshuuchou
    • Section 1-2
  • Pimsleur I
    • Unit 11
    • Unit 12
    • Unit 13
    • Unit 14


It was about a week ago or maybe two weeks ago that I finished Pimsleur Units 11-14. For MnN I have done one run through of Renshuu B in the main textbook. I have yet to get to doing Renshuu C, and should probably run through the B's as well (hence the *). I also need to finally start going through the darn kanji workbooks. For some odd reason I've been dragging my feet on this.
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Re: Japanese - Finish the Darn Textbook!

Postby księżycowy » Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:08 am

It's been far too long since I've updated this. It is the final weeks of school here, so I'll admit I have been a bit preoccupied (mostly with thoughts of Summer vacation :P ). But I need to refocus and reinvest. And none of this means I haven't done anything over the past few weeks.

As far as the main lessons in Minna no Nihongo, I have yet to start Lesson 8. After some discussion and interest from co-workers (after seeing me studying on one of my breaks) it made me remember to review things as I go. So that's what I've been doing. Last week I mostly worked on Kanji from Kanji I Unit 1 and reviewed lessons 1-2. I plan to finish up the kanji in Unit 1, and complete Unit 2 as well this week and also review lessons 3-6 in the main textbook. As far as the discussion on pitch accent, I will start taking an interest in learning the accents of words in the lessons I have gone over already (lessons 1-7). I'm not looking to be perfect or anything, but to start the process of developing an ear for it and also start pronouncing words with pitch accent. I think for now I'll focus on words in isolation. I should also pick Pimsleur back up as well. I think that will take up most of the week (if not more).

  • Kanji I
    • Unit 1
    • Unit 2
  • Review MnN
    • Lesson 3
    • Lesson 4
    • Lesson 5
    • Lesson 6
  • Pitch Accent
    • Lessons 1-3
    • Lessons 4-6
    • Lesson 7
  • Pimsleur
    • Unit 15
    • Unit 16
    • Unit 17
    • Unit 18
    • Unit 19
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Re: Japanese - Finish the Darn Textbook!

Postby księżycowy » Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:46 pm

Rather than take anymore space up in the Pitch accent thread, I'm hoping someone can come along and help me out with how these entries work. I have in my possession a copy of the 「NHK日本語発音アクセント辞典」and am very confused by what some of the markings mean.

example.jpg

From what I understand, the dotted circle is where the vowel is whispered/dropped. But what is the handakuten on ユキスキ?

Also, is I could trouble someone to give a brief rundown on the pitches involved I would appreciate it.
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Re: Japanese - Finish the Darn Textbook!

Postby vonPeterhof » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:19 pm

księżycowy wrote:From what I understand, the dotted circle is where the vowel is whispered/dropped. But what is the handakuten on ユキスキ?

It represents the nasalization of /g/, turning it into [ŋ]. The NHK pronunciation dictionary prescribes this pronunciation of /g/ between vowels.

księżycowy wrote:Also, is I could trouble someone to give a brief rundown on the pitches involved I would appreciate it.

Basically the horizontal line represents high pitch and the small vertical one represents the downstep. Unaccented words like 行き過ぎ have no downstep, so they start low and continue high. アンケート has two permissible pronunciations, an atamadakagata one where you start high only to drop the pitch right after the ア and continue low, and a nakadakagata one where you start low, go up after ア and drop after ケ. Another way of expressing those pitch patterns would be 行き過ぎ [0] and アンケート [1][3], where the numbers indicate the accented mora, i.e. the mora right before the downstep.
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Re: Japanese - Finish the Darn Textbook!

Postby Sizen » Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:07 pm

Soooo, only read the more detailed answers if you really want to. It's mostly historical info and linguistic technicalities that can be interesting and helpful if you are interested in that sort of stuff or not convinced by the explanations you've heard. I apologize for the length, but the stuff I got out of my Japanese linguistics classes in university don't often come in handy in my day to day life, so sometimes I just have to dump that knowledge somewhere...

księżycowy wrote:From what I understand, the dotted circle is where the vowel is whispered/dropped.


Simple answer:

The dotted circle shows that the vowel is basically not pronounced.

More detailed answer:


The dotted circle shows that the vowel is devoiced which means that the vowel is produced without the vibration of your vocal chords. In practice, the vowel can be dropped pretty much entirely, leading to what sounds like consonant clusters that aren't normally permitted in Japanese like /fk/ or /st/. However, it's not entirely correct to say that the sound disappeared entirely: it leaves behind a few traces. For one, the mora where the vowel is "dropped" still retains its "rhythmic weight" so to speak. That's to say, if you clap out each mora in a word, the sound where the vowel is devoiced still counts as a mora and will be perceived as such.

As an example, the word スター (star) is a three mora word (su-ta-a). When spoken, however, it won't exactly sounds like the idealized [suta:]. It'll likely sound more like [sta:]. However, rhythmically, /su/ will keep it's status as a mora regardless of whether the /u/ is voiced or devoiced. You could sort of imagine /s/ as its own mora: (s-ta-a). This is particularly tricky for words like 進む (すすむ susumu) where the first す contains a devoiced vowel and so the word might sound, to an untrained non-Japanese ear, like two syllables: "su-mu". In reality, you have something more like "s-su-mu".

The second sign is that the devoiced vowel will leave its residue on the consonant that precedes it. This is particularly perceptible with い段 characters (characters that end in i) since /i/ has a tendency of causing the preceding consonant to be palatized (which means that the tongue is brought closer to the hard palate [the hard part of the top of your mouth between the soft palate at the back and the alveolar ridge near your front teeth] when the sound is produced). So in theory, a devoiced く and き still sound somewhat different.

This sort of devoicing tends to only occur once in a word and only occurs when the vowels /i/ and /u/ are surrounded by two voiceless consonants (consonants that do not cause your vocal chords to vibrate: /p/, /k/, /s/ (/sh/ [ɕ]), /h/ (both /f/ [ɸ] and [ç]) and /t/ (both [ts] and /ch/ [tɕ]) in Japanese) or when the vowel is preceded by a voiceless consonant and occurs sentence-finally (so like です at the end of a sentence).

księżycowy wrote:But what is the handakuten on ユキスキ?


Simple answer:


The NHK dictionary uses handakuten with the か行 (all characters starting with k) to indicate that the consonant /g/ is pronounced [ŋ] (think English ng, the link has a recording), but you can just consider it the same as if it were written with a regular dakuten (i.e. が, ぎ, ぐ, げ, ご) and pronounce it [g].

More detailed answer:


The handakuten marks when か行 is pronounced as [ŋ] whereas the regular dakuten marks when か行 is pronounced as /g/. In Tokyo Japanese, [ŋ] used to be and still is a possible realization of /g/ word-internally (i.e. not at the very beginning of a word). In fact, back in the 40s, a researcher named Kindaichi found that about 30% of all Tokyo Japanese speakers used [ŋ] consistently word-internally, another 40% used both [g] and [ŋ], and the remaining 30% used only [g].

So, for example, you have words like 'mirror': 鏡 (かがみ kagami) which would be pronounced as /kagami/ or [kaŋami] because the /g/ occurs in the middle of the word. However, a word like drama: 劇 (げき geki) would be pronounced by everyone as /geki/. */ŋeki/ is not an option because the /g/ occurs at the beginning of the word.

However, these word-internal [ŋ] pronunciations don't apply to 5 kinds of words:
1. Onomatopoeic words: がらがら (garagara) which is always [garagara] and not [garaŋara]
2. The number 5 and words containing it: 十五 (じゅうご juugo) which is always pronounced [d͡ʑu:go] and never [d͡ʑu:ŋo]
3. /g/ directly preceded by the honorific 御 (お o): お元気 is always pronounced [ogenki] and never [oŋenki]
4. When /g/ is the initial position of the second element of a compound word: 世界銀行 (world bank: せかいぎんこう sekaiginkou) would always be produced as [sekaigiŋko:] and never [sekaiŋiŋko:].
5. The /g/ in loanwords like ヨーグルト (yogurt: yo-guruto) which would always be pronounced as [jo:guruto] and not [jo:ŋuruto].

There are also some minimal pairs (words that differ only by one sound like English lit and lot where only the vowel is different) that are said to be differentiated by word-internal [ŋ] or [g]:

千五 (one thousand and five: せんご sengo) as [seŋɡo]
戦後 (postwar: せんご sengo) as [seŋŋo]

There is a historical split in Tokyo between these pronunciations. Yamanote (the western part of Tokyo which was traditionally more middle/upper class) heavily favoured [g] whereas as Shitamachi (the eastern part which was more of a lower/middle class area) favoured [ŋ]. Nowadays, Yamanote [g] has been mostly imported into Shitamachi speech, likely due to the prestige and the more abundant number of Shitamachi people who worked in Yamanote than vice versa. As a result, Tokyo Japanese as a whole seems to be moving towards word-internal [g] rather than [ŋ]. In fact, young speakers are very unlikely to produce [ŋ]. You will still hear this pronunciation, especially in older speakers, but also in NHK newscasters because it is considered by some to still be the more prestigious way of speaking.

In other words, the handakuten marks a historical and prestigious [ŋ] pronunciation of /g/ that is good to be aware of (since it might confuse you when you hear it if you're unaware of it), but is not something that you need to concern yourself with unless you wish to adopt this pronunciation. You can basically consider it a regular dakuten for your learning purposes.

vonPeterhof wrote:Basically the horizontal line represents high pitch and the small vertical one represents the downstep. Unaccented words like 行き過ぎ have no downstep, so they start low and continue high. アンケート has two permissible pronunciations, an atamadakagata one where you start high only to drop the pitch right after the ア and continue low, and a nakadakagata one where you start low, go up after ア and drop after ケ. Another way of expressing those pitch patterns would be 行き過ぎ [0] and アンケート [1][3], where the numbers indicate the accented mora, i.e. the mora right before the downstep.

To develop on this point, you can assume that all Japanese words "want" to have a high pitch unless the accent comes along to bring it down. They start low and then immediately go high because that's what they like. Then, when the accent happens, the word is no longer allowed to go high again. If you wanted to see this in terms of "rules" and "definitions", it would look something like this:

1. The accent is a change from high to low pitch. It technically occurs between two morae, but the high-pitch mora that precedes the accent is said to be accented.
2. Words can be accented or unaccented.
3. If the first mora of a word is unaccented, it will be low.
4. The pitch of a word is naturally high leading up to the accent, even if there is none.
5. The pitch of a word is naturally low after the accent.

This is pretty hard to grasp in writing alone and I realize you have to look at three different things at once, but I'll try anyway. It's also just a lot at one time. You might need to reread it a few times or find a better explanation (hopefully with sound and visuals).

Image

Let's take a look at the first pronunciation of アンケート.The one with the line over ア.

  • Rule 2 tells us what kind of word we're dealing with. In this case, アンケートis an accented word and the accent occurs on ア.
  • Rule 4 tells us why there is a line over ア. Since the drop occurs after ア, everything before that accent (which is just ア) needs to be high.
  • Rule 5 tells us why there is no line over the rest of the word (ンケート). The accent has already occurred, so the pitch must stay low for the rest of the word.
  • Rule 1 explains the little downward tick after ア. It denotes the fact that the word is experiencing a switch from high to low pitch.
  • Rule 3 is irrelevant because the first mora is accented.

We can do the same with the second pronunciation of アンケート. The one with the line over ンケ.

  • Rule 2 tells us what kind of word we're dealing with. In this case, アンケートis an accented word and the accent occurs on ケ.
  • Rule 3 is why you see no line over ア in the second pronunciation of アンケート. The accent falls on ケ and not ア, so the first mora (ア) is low.
  • Rule 4 explains why the pitch goes up on ン and stays up until ケ. The word naturally wants to have a high pitch, so it rises between ア and ン to achieve this.
  • Rule 1 explains the little downward tick after ケ. It denotes the fact that the word is experiencing a switch from high to low pitch between ケ and ー.
  • Rule 5 explains why there are no lines over ート. The accent occurred after ケ, so the pitch has to stay low for the rest of the word.

We can even use this for 行き過ぎ.

  • Rule 2 tells us what kind of word we're dealing with. In this case the word is unaccented, so we don't even need rule 1 because there is no accent.
  • Rule 3 tells us why イdoesn't have a line over it. There is no accent in the word, let alone on the first mora, so the first mora must be low.
  • Rule 4 tells us what happens for the rest of the word: there is a line over キスギ because the pitch is high until the accent. In this case, there is no accent so the pitch stays up for the entire word.
  • Rule 5 is also irrelevant because there is no accent to bring the pitch back down.
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Re: Japanese - Finish the Darn Textbook!

Postby księżycowy » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:31 am

Thank you both for the information! I'll start running through the vocabulary for lesson 1 and see how it goes.

I'll certainly ask if there are anymore questions or troubles.
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Re: Japanese - Finish the Darn Textbook!

Postby księżycowy » Mon Jun 14, 2021 9:36 am

I readily admit that trying to work on this whole pitch accent idea has bogged me down a good deal this past week. I was originally going to copy and paste the entries from a pdf copy of NHK, but that was much too tedious (even though I may return to this idea :P ). I'm now experimenting with addons for Anki. I did also start fitting in a little Pimsleur as well. This week I'm gonna focus on other things so I can make some progress. I'll keep chipping away at pitch accent as I am able.
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Re: Japanese - Finish the Darn Textbook!

Postby księżycowy » Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:33 pm

księżycowy wrote:
  • Kanji I
    • Unit 1
    • Unit 2
  • Review MnN
    • Lesson 3
    • Lesson 4
    • Lesson 5
    • Lesson 6
  • Pitch Accent
    • Lessons 1-3
    • Lessons 4-6
    • Lesson 7
  • Pimsleur
    • Unit 15
    • Unit 16
    • Unit 17
    • Unit 18
    • Unit 19

Perhaps this was a bit too ambitious. :P

For this next week I'll do the following (or at least die trying):

  • Minna no Nihongo - Lesson 8
    • Main Textbook Drills
    • Main Textbook Exercises
    • Main Textbook Dialogue
    • Bunkei Renshucho
    • Hyoujun Mondaishuu
    • Shokyu de Yomeru
    • Choukai Tasuku
  • Kanji I
    • Unit 3
  • Review MnN
    • Lesson 3
  • Shadowing Unit 1
    • Section 1
    • Section 2
    • Section 3
  • Pitch Accent
    • Lessons 1-2
  • Pimsleur
    • Unit 15 (I could use a review ;) )
    • Unit 16
    • Unit 17
    • Unit 18
    • Unit 19

(Which probably means this is my last week alive. :lol: )
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