PM's The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

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Gustav Aschenbach
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Re: PM's 2021 Language Log - The Norwegian Resistance

Postby Gustav Aschenbach » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:22 pm

Deinonysus wrote:The way PM is choosing to study is not exactly the way I would do it, but he has not asked for my opinion and I will not be indulging in LLORG's favorite pastime, the "give PM unsolicited advice" game.


Ah, so you're saying that my above comment was unsolicited advice? Peter, do you agree?
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby Cavesa » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:55 pm

I'd say having a log is basically a solicitation for a discussion (I wouldn't go as far as to generalise it is like asking for advice all the time).

While going through as many courses as PM may be a bit extreme, I'd say we can all see the benefits. PM usually really internalizes all that is taught at these levels (which is much more than just the second lesson examples like "the dog is outside". People seem to underestimate the amount of content of the lower levels A1-B1 all the time), and avoids some of the traps many of us encounter, such as huge gaps or weaknesses, that suddenly start pulling us back around B2 or even later.

I have no doubts PM will later add tons of input too.Tons of coursebooks and tons of input are not mutually exclusive.

And in the good LLORG tradition of unsollicited opinions, I'll add mine: I'd personally not settle for Assimil even for an "easy" language, I would probably reduce the list to Assimil+The Mystery of Nils+one classroom aimed course. Perhaps one more course, something heavy in exercises on top of that.

I am looking forward to reading of PMs Norwegian adventure. And the reviews of the resources will be extremely useful to our community for decades to come! :-)

The focus should rather be on advanced courses, since going from intermediate to advanced takes much, much more time than from zero to intermediate. But you only list a handful of intermediate/advanced courses and just so many beginner's courses.


I would partially agree. I did suggest more focus on intermediate and advanced French resources myself at various moments, rather than overkilling the beginner ones. However, I am not sure there are actually that many of them for the Norwegian learners. If there are, I'm sure PM will discover them and inform us. As they're likely to be monolingual, he cannot discover them that easily now. And at least he'll later profit from solid basics.

What I find more tricky (based on my past considerations of learning a scandinavian language myself, with tons of research of the resources) is the access to the media for the natives. Everything in these countries seems to be geoblocked, either forbidden to foreigners or at least damn expensive. You can get several comparable German books for the price of one Swedish book (and another German book for the Swedish delivery fee :-D ).
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby iguanamon » Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:09 pm

PM and I go way back and we've developed a friendship. Over the years, PM has always made grand statements of intent. I take them with a grain of salt. I believe he will learn Norwegian. I don't believe he will actually do 20 courses. So, I was just gently "needling" him about it for laughs. Seriously, nobody needs to worry about PM.

Myself, personally, if I were to set out to learn Norwegian, I'd choose a couple of book/audio courses and Pimsleur would be an audio course to complement them. I liked what I saw of "The Story of Nils". It looks like a good course to hold and maintain interest and come at the language from a different direction.

Deinonysus is right about Assimil, in my opinion. My recent experience with Assimil "Le Catalan sans peine" let me see that while Assimil has its advantages for learners- short lessons and a sense of growing progress, it falls way short for me on necessary repetition, exercises and drills to reinforce what is being taught. Hence the need to supplement it. With what and how to supplement it is where PM and I differ in our views of language-learning... and that is fine. I, myself, look at courses as a necessary means to an end- as something to be gone through as quickly as I can. I tolerate them and even enjoy doing them to a certain extent while engaged with them, but I never lose sight of their purpose and try to leave them behind as soon as I can. That's me and that's not PM and that's ok.

Pronunciation is very important to PM and I can't and won't fault him for that. Norwegian has many dialects across the large country, some don't even have tones, so, of course PM will go for tones, :) . I almost always gravitate towards the non-standard varieties of a language's pronunciation. It's a personal quirk I have, speaking a non-standard pronunciation of my native English. If I were ever to learn French, due to my experience with French Creoles, I'd probably not go for a Parisian accent, but I understand why people do. No doubt PM will go for an Oslo accent and who can blame him. I bet he'll sound great in Norwegian! He's such a hard worker when it comes to pronunciation.

So, folks, don't worry about PM, he may have a look at all these courses he listed but he won't do them all sequentially. Life will get in the way, as it always does. He never did complete FSI French, DLI French or Mauger- despite his declared intent at one time or another. PM will get a solid background in the fundamentals of Norwegian and no doubt will go beyond courses... in his own time. He knows what he's doing. Bòn chans, Bòn Ane 2021, PM !
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby tangleweeds » Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:18 pm

Cavesa wrote:I am looking forward to reading of PMs Norwegian adventure. And the reviews of the resources will be extremely useful to our community for decades to come! :-)
<snip>
I did suggest more focus on intermediate and advanced French resources myself at various moments, rather than overkilling the beginner ones. However, I am not sure there are actually that many of them for the Norwegian learners. If there are, I'm sure PM will discover them and inform us. As they're likely to be monolingual, he cannot discover them that easily now.
Thank you in advance, Peter! I'll be waiting to hear about your discoveries and new reviews, as I follow (slowly and circuitously) in your footsteps.

Cavesa wrote:PM usually really internalizes all that is taught at these levels (which is much more than just the second lesson examples like "the dog is outside". People seem to underestimate the amount of content of the lower levels A1-B1 all the time), and avoids some of the traps many of us encounter, such as huge gaps or weaknesses, that suddenly start pulling us back around B2 or even later.
<snip>
And at least he'll later profit from solid basics.
I'll confess to being fond of courses myself, and this is also my rationale. Based on my experience developing skills on various musical instruments (which has, in my experience, turned out to be surprisingly similar to gaining skills in speaking languages), getting the basics down solidly helps prevent long stuck plateaus later on. (Or if, like me, you're prone to wandering off to check out some new/different language/instrument, it helps hugely to have solid basics to fall back on upon your return).

Cavesa wrote:What I find more tricky (based on my past considerations of learning a scandinavian language myself, with tons of research of the resources) is the access to the media for the natives. Everything in these countries seems to be geoblocked, either forbidden to foreigners or at least damn expensive. You can get several comparable German books for the price of one Swedish book (and another German book for the Swedish delivery fee :-D ).
Augh, ^^^this ^^^this ^^^this!!

Looking forward to following your progress in this, PM! Have a productive new year, and may all those distracting moves and life changes iron themselves out in 2021!
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:40 am

Gustav Aschenbach wrote:
Interesting, why so many beginner's courses if you want to make the best out of one year/of 1000 hours? Given that you already have a basis in Norwegian and that it is a Germanic language just like English, I would finish Assimil and then plunge into native material while studying grammar (which is easy because English and Norwegian grammar are so similar). Learning how to say "my name is", "the dog is outside" again and again isn't the most sensible approach imo. The focus should rather be on advanced courses, since going from intermediate to advanced takes much, much more time than from zero to intermediate. But you only list a handful of intermediate/advanced courses and just so many beginner's courses.


To me, building a language from the ground up requires some pretty solid foundations and I don't argue that others who study/learn differently are not building decent foundations but the courses are my way of doing that. Norwegian, much like French I have found, requires a lot of focus on pronunciation, and as iguanamon notes this is something I put a lot of time into with my study methods. The beginner's courses assist me with that careful process. Of course pronunciation is not the only focus, so I use courses to build the language structurally as well, as many a language learner does. But why so many? As Cavesa points out, the advanced courses are hard to find for Norwegian. In fact, I will add more advanced courses later as I discover them, as again as Cavesa points out, I may not be aware of their titles yet. The courses on my list are the ones I know at this stage, I'm likely to discover more advanced ones later, and there's no point looking for them just yet as it would be wasting my time.

It's similar for native content. This whole mission is to build a very solid foundation. I don't like beginning with native content. In fact one of my biggest regrets with my massive French mission was listening to too many other people and introducing native content a little early. I should've stuck to the courses solely in my dedicated study time (could've did whatever I liked outside of the strict study time) for longer to get more of them out of the way before moving more and more towards native content and finally exclusively. Not having done that has left me with a feeling of always wanting to go back to the courses.

However, I definitely could've ditched a few beginner's courses for a few more advanced ones. It was a learning process, to learn how I needed to learn. So I guess it's likely normal to look back and see what could've been done better. And by saying that I should've stayed with the French courses only for longer, I don't mean that I should've ditched native content. The outcome possibly would've been that I would've reached native content sooner because I would've stuck to my method and not got distracted and introduced native content when I was ready. So although I regret not having done the courses for longer i also regret not having got to native content quicker! I ended up in a no-mans land for too long using a mixture of both not knowing when to let go of courses and when to fully go native. It's not anyone else's fault and I received a lot of awesome advice here. In fact everything they were telling me was right, but I just wasn't ready for it as soon as others would be. And it's no great loss, I still managed to pass B2 and go beyond that considerably.

Therefore, this time around, it's courses all the way until I'm ready to transition. I'll know when that is. Like iguanamon mentioned, I didn't complete all the courses on my French list (but it was a MUCH bigger list), and this might happen with Norwegian. Still, for now, I'm more determined than ever to work with the courses and knock every last one of them off that list. Will I actually do that? I don't know.

In doing several beginner's courses you are not going to go through each course at the same pace. Every time I come across grammatical concepts or vocabulary I've already covered in another course, there's these things to consider:
1. If I have struggled with something (perhaps grammar rule) in the language before it is very useful to see it presented again in a different fashion in another course.
2. if I'm absolutely comfortable I know a word or a grammatical rule, I'm not going to waste much time when I come across it again in another course, I'll realise I know this already and move on.
3. Revision of already learned grammar and vocabulary is highly valuable.
4. If I'm not about to pick up native content, I need more time with the language from courses.
5. Multiple courses provide more vocabulary, have different teaching methods, different audio etc - all this does not hinder, it helps.
6. I'll know if I've covered enough and need to move on from beginner courses.

Gustav Aschenbach wrote:
Deinonysus wrote:The way PM is choosing to study is not exactly the way I would do it, but he has not asked for my opinion and I will not be indulging in LLORG's favorite pastime, the "give PM unsolicited advice" game.


Ah, so you're saying that my above comment was unsolicited advice? Peter, do you agree?


It is unsolicited advice, in a way, yes. But it is welcome and as Cavesa indicates, the logs allow for advice from others. It is through exchanging ideas and opinions on this forum that we learn how others learn, how we might improve on things etc. And we follow that advice at times, but as I said, I regret not having remained with the courses alone for longer in French, so no amount of people telling me I'm doing too many courses of any type is going to change my objectives here. I now have a lot of experience from learning French and part of that experience tells me that I'm going to stick to my guns here and not waiver from beginner's courses until I'm ready. Thus, were Deinonysus to give me some advice, I'd likely not take it :lol:
However -
Deinonysus wrote:Just Assimil is not enough IMO.

I absolutely agree.

Cavesa wrote:I have no doubts PM will later add tons of input too.Tons of coursebooks and tons of input are not mutually exclusive.


Yep. This plan with all the courses is a mission to get me to using all the native content down the track. I also will engage with content that is actually native content (news for example) outside of my desk study time. However, I'll not do too much, as I feel it's a waste of time to a certain extent when i can't understand anything yet, but not a waste of time to simply get used to the patterns of speech and so forth and eventually pick up words, then sentences etc.

Cavesa wrote:And in the good LLORG tradition of unsollicited opinions, I'll add mine: I'd personally not settle for Assimil even for an "easy" language, I would probably reduce the list to Assimil+The Mystery of Nils+one classroom aimed course. Perhaps one more course, something heavy in exercises on top of that.

;)

Cavesa wrote:I am looking forward to reading of PMs Norwegian adventure. And the reviews of the resources will be extremely useful to our community for decades to come! :-)


Now I'll definitely have to finish all the courses!

Cavesa wrote:
Gustav Aschenbach wrote:The focus should rather be on advanced courses, since going from intermediate to advanced takes much, much more time than from zero to intermediate. But you only list a handful of intermediate/advanced courses and just so many beginner's courses.


I would partially agree. I did suggest more focus on intermediate and advanced French resources myself at various moments, rather than overkilling the beginner ones. However, I am not sure there are actually that many of them for the Norwegian learners. If there are, I'm sure PM will discover them and inform us. As they're likely to be monolingual, he cannot discover them that easily now. And at least he'll later profit from solid basics.

And I tend to agree too. I need more advanced courses, but there aren't that many. As already explained, I'll likely find them later, as you suggested, Cavesa. And you were dead on (as were many others) that I could've got rid of a few French beginner's courses in exchange for more advanced ones.

Cavesa wrote:What I find more tricky (based on my past considerations of learning a scandinavian language myself, with tons of research of the resources) is the access to the media for the natives. Everything in these countries seems to be geoblocked, either forbidden to foreigners or at least damn expensive. You can get several comparable German books for the price of one Swedish book (and another German book for the Swedish delivery fee :-D ).


Yes I'm yet to discover the full extent of these issues. If anyone read my recent thread regarding the Dutch bookseller bol.com no longer exporting outside the Netherlands or Belgium, well you'd know I understand these frustrations and limitations. I resorted to ordering a staggering amount of books so that I'll have years of Dutch content to read to my children, since I teach them Dutch in part with stories. Fortunately I have a very close friend who lives in Norway and has offered to send things to me in Australia if I post them to her address. The cost will be the difficult part, I guess.
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Jan 01, 2021 3:56 am

iguanamon wrote:PM and I go way back and we've developed a friendship. Over the years, PM has always made grand statements of intent. I take them with a grain of salt. I believe he will learn Norwegian. I don't believe he will actually do 20 courses. So, I was just gently "needling" him about it for laughs. Seriously, nobody needs to worry about PM.


Not do them all! :twisted:

And I value our friendship. ;)

iguanamon wrote:Myself, personally, if I were to set out to learn Norwegian, I'd choose a couple of book/audio courses and Pimsleur would be an audio course to complement them. I liked what I saw of "The Story of Nils". It looks like a good course to hold and maintain interest and come at the language from a different direction.


Sounds reasonable... for you ;)

iguanamon wrote:Deinonysus is right about Assimil, in my opinion. My recent experience with Assimil "Le Catalan sans peine" let me see that while Assimil has its advantages for learners- short lessons and a sense of growing progress, it falls way short for me on necessary repetition, exercises and drills to reinforce what is being taught. Hence the need to supplement it. With what and how to supplement it is where PM and I differ in our views of language-learning... and that is fine. I, myself, look at courses as a necessary means to an end- as something to be gone through as quickly as I can. I tolerate them and even enjoy doing them to a certain extent while engaged with them, but I never lose sight of their purpose and try to leave them behind as soon as I can. That's me and that's not PM and that's ok.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not exactly the same PM who started out with French all those years back. I do absolutely feel a need for courses still, but I do absolutely see the need to transition out of courseland as well. That's something I never understood when I started my journey with French. You and many others tried to tell me, I didn't listen. And then I did, to a limited extent. So yes, Gustav's point's are valid, as are yours, I just prefer to do more course content than many others prefer.

iguanamon wrote:Pronunciation is very important to PM and I can't and won't fault him for that. Norwegian has many dialects across the large country, some don't even have tones, so, of course PM will go for tones, :) . I almost always gravitate towards the non-standard varieties of a language's pronunciation. It's a personal quirk I have, speaking a non-standard pronunciation of my native English. If I were ever to learn French, due to my experience with French Creoles, I'd probably not go for a Parisian accent, but I understand why people do. No doubt PM will go for an Oslo accent and who can blame him. I bet he'll sound great in Norwegian! He's such a hard worker when it comes to pronunciation.


Thanks for the complements, iguanamon. It's not necessarily that I prefer to go for the most commonly known accents in each language, but it's also that the majority of the course content that I use to shadow/imitate focuses on these varieties of speech.
There's nowhere near as much available for learning other accents and I'd like to keep it simple since it's already a rather complicated and large task. It also makes sense to me that the most commonly heard variety of the language be the one I learn since I don't want to get around France sounding like I'm from Quebec or other countries sounding like I'm from a far flung isolated corner of the country. I don't have a problem with other regions, it's just, I have access to much more content in the standardised/most common forms of the language and it's what is most heard by others, thus my communication with others ought to be facilitated by a commonly heard form of speech. Ironic, this is, given my strong rejection of all things homogenous. Mind you, were I to live in a far-flung corner of country X, I'd likely start imitating the speech of those around me.

iguanamon wrote:So, folks, don't worry about PM, he may have a look at all these courses he listed but he won't do them all sequentially. Life will get in the way, as it always does. He never did complete FSI French, DLI French or Mauger- despite his declared intent at one time or another. PM will get a solid background in the fundamentals of Norwegian and no doubt will go beyond courses... in his own time. He knows what he's doing. Bòn chans, Bòn Ane 2021, PM !


Thank you for your kind words, iguanamon. Now, I'm dropping Norwegian and going back to complete FSI, DLI, FIA, Mauger and... and... and... and... oh and I haven't bought this course yet... nor that one... :lol:
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:08 am

tangleweeds wrote:
Cavesa wrote:I am looking forward to reading of PMs Norwegian adventure. And the reviews of the resources will be extremely useful to our community for decades to come! :-)
<snip>
I did suggest more focus on intermediate and advanced French resources myself at various moments, rather than overkilling the beginner ones. However, I am not sure there are actually that many of them for the Norwegian learners. If there are, I'm sure PM will discover them and inform us. As they're likely to be monolingual, he cannot discover them that easily now.
Thank you in advance, Peter! I'll be waiting to hear about your discoveries and new reviews, as I follow (slowly and circuitously) in your footsteps.


Dammit, now I definitely have to write the reviews! It's not something I love doing, and I don't think I'm great at writing reviews, but either way I'l give it a go. ;)

I'll also be keen to see how you proceed with Norwegian, tangleweeds! Good luck to you too!

tangleweeds wrote:
Cavesa wrote:PM usually really internalizes all that is taught at these levels (which is much more than just the second lesson examples like "the dog is outside". People seem to underestimate the amount of content of the lower levels A1-B1 all the time), and avoids some of the traps many of us encounter, such as huge gaps or weaknesses, that suddenly start pulling us back around B2 or even later.
<snip>
And at least he'll later profit from solid basics.
I'll confess to being fond of courses myself, and this is also my rationale. Based on my experience developing skills on various musical instruments (which has, in my experience, turned out to be surprisingly similar to gaining skills in speaking languages), getting the basics down solidly helps prevent long stuck plateaus later on. (Or if, like me, you're prone to wandering off to check out some new/different language/instrument, it helps hugely to have solid basics to fall back on upon your return).


Funny you should mention that. Recently I went off on a not so language tangent just not sitting down to study and listening to other things instead on commutes etc. I had a break from form learning and even got back into some music here and there (listening to it, I mean). Hence, Muse featuring in my first post. Anyway, I say 'funny' because I thought, maybe I ought to learn a musical instrument some day in place of yet another language (i'm talking years away). Just a thought, maybe I'll do it some day.

tangleweeds wrote:
Cavesa wrote:What I find more tricky (based on my past considerations of learning a scandinavian language myself, with tons of research of the resources) is the access to the media for the natives. Everything in these countries seems to be geoblocked, either forbidden to foreigners or at least damn expensive. You can get several comparable German books for the price of one Swedish book (and another German book for the Swedish delivery fee :-D ).
Augh, ^^^this ^^^this ^^^this!!

Looking forward to following your progress in this, PM! Have a productive new year, and may all those distracting moves and life changes iron themselves out in 2021!
[/quote]

Thanks, tangleweeds. There's going to be likely lots of obstacles in future I'll need to work around, but I'll keep persevering. I also wish you all the best with your language learning and all else in 2021!
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby blackcoffee » Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:54 am

Hi Peter,

I'm curious about how, given your approach and list of beginner courses, you decide what order to tackle them in and generally how you plan to sequence them.

Audio courses probably fit into different slots in your day, but for the dedicated study time that you have, what will you begin with and how will you know when it's time to start the next course?

It doesn't sound efficient or appealing to me to finish one completely before starting another, but I also think it would be hard to work on too many at the same time. Maybe start with one and get either halfway through or a month in before starting the next? What features call out to you, "start with me!"?

Edited to add: I just read the December posts in your Norwegian Plandemic thread and see that you have largely answered these questions! I look forward to seeing how your plans evolve. :)
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby Gustav Aschenbach » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:51 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:
Gustav Aschenbach wrote:Ah, so you're saying that my above comment was unsolicited advice? Peter, do you agree?


It is unsolicited advice, in a way, yes.


Okay, sorry, will not happen again. I didn't know about the forum's fixation on giving you unsolicited advice. :lol:


The following is NOT advice, it's just my personal opinion:

Just Assimil is not enough IMO.


Enough for what would be the question. Of course it's not enough for "learning a language", no textbook and no series of textbooks ever is. My thinking was that when learning a relatively easy, closely related language with many cognates and a similar grammar (English and Norwegian for instance) Assimil plus another textbook with grammar explanations and drills is already a good basis to dive into "native material"., e.g. take a newspaper article and read it with the aid of a dictionary.

For a difficult language (e.g. Mandarin for native speakers of English) just finishing Assimil is absolutely not enough to start with "native materials".
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Re: PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++

Postby rdearman » Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:46 pm

Peter I advise you to grow your hair longer.
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