Beosweyne learns more Zulu in 2023

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Beosweyne
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Re: Beosweyne's assorted A1s and A2s

Postby Beosweyne » Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:03 am

Middle Egyptian

An important milestone is coming up. Next Sunday our GlyphStudy group will complete the final exercise from Hoch's Middle Egyptian Grammar. That's reason enough to boost the language level in my profile to A1! 8-)

Some years ago when I was in the early stages of teaching myself Latin and Ancient Greek, I also thought about picking up one of the really ancient languages, specifically either Egyptian or Akkadian. But knowing me, without some external motivation there was no way I was going to complete a heavy grammar-translation book like Hoch's or the far heavier Grammar of Akkadian by Huehnergard. So when finally a new Hoch study group was announced in April 2020 I really had to sign up. The group's pace has been just right for me, and I've managed to keep up with its schedule of readings and exercises right up to the end.

This week I had an idea to write a short composition in hieroglyphics as a parting gift to my fellow group members. I want to translate this brief conversation between a peasant and a sailor:

Peasant: How did your father die?
Sailor: He died while sailing in a ship.
P: And how did your grandfather die?
S: He too died while sailing in a ship.
P: Then why aren't you afraid of sailing in a ship?

After thinking for a bit, the sailor responds with some questions of his own:

Sailor: How did your father die?
Peasant: He died while sleeping in his bed.
S: And how did your grandfather die?
P: He too died while sleeping in his bed.
S: Then why aren't you afraid of sleeping in your bed? :mrgreen:

I have collected the vocabulary for my translation. All the words happen to be in the lexicon provided by Hoch, with the exception of 'bed'. I just need to re-read the sections about interrogative sentences and then I should be ready to translate.

Incidentally I found this story in a sermon on the topic of envy, given by (I seem to recall) Abraham a Sancta Clara, a German monk. In it, the peasant is shown to be the kind of person who seeks to minimise the virtues of others. The intent behind the peasant's questioning is to play down the bravery of the sailor, which he secretly envies, and make him seem reckless instead.

Ancient Greek diversion

The following was my attempt at a Greek translation of the same conversation, written a couple of years ago. I can't remember why I chose to get rid of the peasant and replace him with a mere boy curious to learn about maritime life. Maybe I couldn't be bothered to look up the word for 'peasant'? Whatever the reason, in this version it is the sailor who comes across as crass and mean by making light of the loss of the boy's dear ones.

παῖς τις, βουλόμενος τὰ τῆς θαλάσσης μανθάνειν, πρὸς λιμένα ποτε ἦλθεν. οὗτος μὲν ναύτῃ τινι εἶπεν, "ὦ ναῦτα, πῶς ἀπέθανεν ὁ σὸς πατήρ;" ὁ δὲ ναύτης "πλέων δὴ κατὰ θάλασσαν," ἔφη, "ἐν νηὶ ἀπέθανεν ὁ πατήρ μου." ἔπειτα ὁ παῖς ἠρώτησεν, "ὁ πάππος σου πῶς ἀπέθανεν;" ὁ οὗν ναύτης ἀπεκρίνατο "πλέων δὴ κατὰ θάλασσαν ἐν νηὶ ἀπέθανε καὶ ὁ ἐμὸς πάππος." ὁ παῖς μάλιστα θαυμάζων "αλλὰ σύ," ἔφη, "καίπερ ταῦτα εἰδώς, ἔτι μέλλεις πλεύσεσθαι ἐν νηί;"

ὁ μέντοι ναύτης ἠρώτησε τὸν παῖδα πῶς ἀπέθανεν ὁ πατὴρ αὐτοῦ. ἀπεκρίνατο ὁ παῖς, "ἐν κλίνῃ καθεύδων." ἔπειτα ὁ ναύτης ἠρώτησε πῶς ἀπέθανεν ὁ πάππος αὐτοῦ. ὁ δὲ παῖς αὖθις εἶπεν, "ἐν κλίνῃ καθεύδων." τέλος δὲ ὁ ναύτης "αλλὰ σύ," ἔφη, "καίπερ ταῦτα εἰδώς, ἔτι μέλλεις καθευδήσειν ἐν κλίνῃ;"


Life after Hoch

Right at the end his book Hoch says:

Serious students who have reached this point in their studies of Egyptian have, it may be assumed, expended a great deal of time and much effort. Although reading Egyptian texts will not feel natural for years (if ever), there is an undeniable satisfaction in the ability to read first-hand the fascinating literature and to have direct access to the culture of this ancient society. [...] There is no better way to keep and sharpen one's skills than by reading texts.

He goes on to recommend the Westcar Papyrus as a good text to proceed with, so that's what I am going to do. It is a collection of tales about some legendary sorcerers from the time of pharaoh Khufu (of Great Pyramid fame). Along the way I will be consulting the detailed grammatical notes in Le récit du Papyrus Westcar by Laura Parys. It's out of print but the author has made it free to download.
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MorkTheFiddle
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Re: Beosweyne's assorted A1s and A2s

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:09 pm

Beosweyne wrote:
παῖς τις, βουλόμενος τὰ τῆς θαλάσσης μανθάνειν, πρὸς λιμένα ποτε ἦλθεν. οὗτος μὲν ναύτῃ τινι εἶπεν, "ὦ ναῦτα, πῶς ἀπέθανεν ὁ σὸς πατήρ;" ὁ δὲ ναύτης "πλέων δὴ κατὰ θάλασσαν," ἔφη, "ἐν νηὶ ἀπέθανεν ὁ πατήρ μου." ἔπειτα ὁ παῖς ἠρώτησεν, "ὁ πάππος σου πῶς ἀπέθανεν;" ὁ οὗν ναύτης ἀπεκρίνατο "πλέων δὴ κατὰ θάλασσαν ἐν νηὶ ἀπέθανε καὶ ὁ ἐμὸς πάππος." ὁ παῖς μάλιστα θαυμάζων "αλλὰ σύ," ἔφη, "καίπερ ταῦτα εἰδώς, ἔτι μέλλεις πλεύσεσθαι ἐν νηί;"

ὁ μέντοι ναύτης ἠρώτησε τὸν παῖδα πῶς ἀπέθανεν ὁ πατὴρ αὐτοῦ. ἀπεκρίνατο ὁ παῖς, "ἐν κλίνῃ καθεύδων." ἔπειτα ὁ ναύτης ἠρώτησε πῶς ἀπέθανεν ὁ πάππος αὐτοῦ. ὁ δὲ παῖς αὖθις εἶπεν, "ἐν κλίνῃ καθεύδων." τέλος δὲ ὁ ναύτης "αλλὰ σύ," ἔφη, "καίπερ ταῦτα εἰδώς, ἔτι μέλλεις καθευδήσειν ἐν κλίνῃ;"
Far be it from me to judge the technicalities of your Ancient Greek version, but I understood and liked it. Well done!
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Beosweyne
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Re: Beosweyne's assorted A1s and A2s

Postby Beosweyne » Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:35 am

MorkTheFiddle wrote:Far be it from me to judge the technicalities of your Ancient Greek version, but I understood and liked it. Well done!

Thanks for reading! I remember labouring over it for an entire week especially as I wanted to vary the constructions as much as I could, even though the story is of course repetitive. That's why I wrote e.g. 2 of the questions using reported speech.
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Re: Beosweyne's assorted A1s and A2s

Postby dEhiN » Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:55 pm

Hi Beosweyne, I like your log. I'm also a little jealous that you've learned Ancient Greek and Egyptian! I tried to learn Hittite once, but wasn't able to stick with the study group I had joined at the time. Which variety of Ancient Greek have you been learning? Back in the early 2000s, I took a course at uni to learn Koine, or New Testament, Greek. I can still read the alphabet, but sadly, don't remember much. Every so often, I get a desire to find the textbook we used and go through it. But, then I also think that maybe I should do Ancient or even Classical Greek instead, as it would probably afford me access to more source materials.
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Beosweyne
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Re: Beosweyne's assorted A1s and A2s

Postby Beosweyne » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:30 am

dEhiN wrote:Which variety of Ancient Greek have you been learning?

Hi and welcome to the forum! I started learning Anc. Greek hoping to read Homer. As there didn't seem to be any particularly friendly resources for learning Homeric Greek, I began with the Attic dialect, first using Assimil Le grec ancien and currently finishing off John Taylor's 3-volume set Greek to GCSE + Greek Beyond GCSE. I started 7 years ago, I'm such a slow learner!
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Re: Beosweyne's assorted A1s and A2s

Postby dEhiN » Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:15 pm

Beosweyne wrote:I started 7 years ago, I'm such a slow learner!

Hey, at least you can write lengthy text in Greek. I started learning Tamil probably in 1998 or 1999, and I still had to get my dad's help as well as look stuff up just to write the one sentence in my signature! :D
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Beosweyne
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Re: Beosweyne's assorted A1s and A2s

Postby Beosweyne » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:21 am

Middle Egyptian

I have finished translating the Peasant and Sailor story that I wrote about in a recent post. Now I am typing the hieroglyphic text using the program JSesh. Below you can see the half I've typed so far, in which the peasant is questioning the sailor.

Egyptian fictional narratives tended to be written in past tense, so that's what I've used here. Also to make the story sound a bit more authentic I gave the protagonists Egyptian names, Meri the peasant and Rensi the sailor.
meri-rensi.png

In case you are unfamiliar with the language but would like to follow along, it might be helpful to compare the transliteration above with the following literal word-for-word translation. As expected, since Egyptian is a member of the Afro-Asiatic family, a few parallels with Semitic languages become apparent e.g.: word order is VSO (however, there are no transitive verbs in this story and therefore no direct objects); a subject pronoun can be suffixed to the verb (.k is the masculine 2nd person suffix, .f is 3rd person); and the verb 'to die' is mt.

1. So-it-arose Meri peasant was-engaged-in to-talk to Rensi sailor (Meri the peasant was talking to Rensi the sailor)
2. and-he-said: the-way-died your-father, like what? (and he said: How did your father die?)
3. Then-replied Rensi: he-died in-doing to-sail in ship. (Rensi replied: He died while sailing in a ship.)
4. Then-said Meri: the-way-died father of-your-father, like what? (Then Meri said: How did your grandfather die?)
5. Then-replied Rensi: he-died also in-doing to-sail in ship. (Rensi replied: He too died while sailing in a ship.)
6. Then-said Meri: the-way-you-do-not then to-not-fear for to-sail in ship, because what? (Then Meri said: Why, then, do you not fear sailing in a ship?)
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Re: Beosweyne's assorted A1s and A2s

Postby księżycowy » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:53 pm

Can I just say that I am so jealous over your study of Middle Egyptian? :P
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Re: Beosweyne's assorted A1s and A2s

Postby dEhiN » Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:58 pm

księżycowy wrote:Can I just say that I am so jealous over your study of Middle Egyptian? :P

Me too!

@Beosweyne, you sir are an inspiration!
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Beosweyne
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Re: Beosweyne's assorted A1s and A2s

Postby Beosweyne » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:28 pm

dEhiN wrote:
księżycowy wrote:Can I just say that I am so jealous over your study of Middle Egyptian? :P

Me too!

@Beosweyne, you sir are an inspiration!


Oops I just realised what I posted was not a harmless story but an ancient curse :oops: Please check your immediate surroundings for any adult Nile crocodiles that might have materialised (but the little ones are cute and you can pet them.)
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