Clara's Spanish Log

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clara
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Re: Clara's Spanish Log

Postby clara » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:03 pm

Caromarlyse wrote:That was a great post! You seem to have done fantastically well. I'm excited to do the super challenge officially this time round, and your post was very motivational.

I was interested in what you said about not being a television fan, because I'm with you on that one. As a result, I've never managed to watch loads of TL series (except on rare occasions when I actually get into it, which has only happened when I've been able to watch with someone else as a social thing - though the language learning takeaway is then poor as there are then always English subtitles). Did you just push yourself to do it, despite not really enjoying it? If so, did you find you got more enjoyment out of it as you progressed? Did you view watching Netflix as a kind of desk study thing, or were you able to get into the habit of watching as a form of entertainment? I can't decide whether I just accept that I work with my own personality and preferences, or whether I'd like the benefits I could get out of trying to force a different approach.


Thank you, that's a good question! Most of it was pushing myself to do it despite not really enjoying it though I did get into a few series like Altered Carbon (enough that I watched in English too because there is a lot lost through translation) and Travelers. In retrospect, my life before picking up Spanish was pretty silent. I don't enjoy *most* forms of audio input: news, radio, podcasts, audiobooks, television, youtube, etc. My preferred audio would have been music and movies, but those aren't great for language learning at my level (too irregular and too hard). So while I didn't outright enjoy most of it, I felt fairly neutral and came to appreciate the advantages of TV to the alternatives. I do think it's a better learning tool for exposure to a wide variety of voices and accents, and the visual component aids comprehension. I sometimes felt frustrated by low density of spoken words per episode which made it feel "inefficient" but it also gave my brain a bit of rest, and I could have the stamina to watch several episodes in a row.
4 x
Spanish Goals
22/23 SC Films: 438 / 18000 438 / 18000 minutes
22/23 SC Books: 6454 / 10000 6454 / 10000 pages
2022 Reading: 8061 / 8000 8061 / 10000 8000 pages

clara
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Re: Clara's Spanish Log

Postby clara » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:43 pm

Caromarlyse wrote:I can't decide whether I just accept that I work with my own personality and preferences, or whether I'd like the benefits I could get out of trying to force a different approach.


Wanted to answer this part a bit more directly. For me, I didn't have a huge preference for audio content alternatives that would have been appropriate for my level (I don't like podcasts or youtube any more than Netflix) so it wasn't a huge sacrifice. I bookmarked a post on Reddit from someone who had a strong preference for podcasts and his experience with Netflix was interesting. He trudged his way through 250 hours, learned a lot, and then backed off a bit on Netflix watching but is still keeping it up. So while podcasts were useful for getting him to a certain level, series cover different types of speech.

From a language learning perspective, it really was fun/cool to get to the point where I could understand a lot. Watching shows like The Flash or Vampire Diaries, I'd often turn the speed up to see how fast I could play it and still catch all the words. Little things like that made it more "fun/gamey" plus made the watching literally go by faster. And even if I don't like TV generally, it's easier than grammar worksheets or drills, so it's relative.
3 x
Spanish Goals
22/23 SC Films: 438 / 18000 438 / 18000 minutes
22/23 SC Books: 6454 / 10000 6454 / 10000 pages
2022 Reading: 8061 / 8000 8061 / 10000 8000 pages

Caromarlyse
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(All levels estimates and given as a guide only)
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Re: Clara's Spanish Log

Postby Caromarlyse » Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:07 am

Thanks for your comprehensive answers. It does sound as though it would be good for me to suck it up and just do it! I think I'll wait for the super challenge to start - it's a bit arbitrary, but I will need all the motivation I can get, so I think that that external motivation will be necessary. (Brains/emotions are funny things.) That will at least give me time to plan - again, I think if I can get rid of the roadblocks of having to make decisions by already having something lined up, that should help psychologically too. I'll also have to decide which language will get to take part in this experiment (I already intend for it only to be one, as it sounds from you and that reddit post that a single focus is a good idea, if only because of the sheer numbers of hours that lead to improvement).

Unlike you, I don't have an aversion to audio input per se, just watching series (or indeed films). I enjoy podcasts. But I - rationally - understand the arguments that series bring something that other audio input sources don't. I'll have to get this rational side to override my emotional side. I also actually quite enjoy grammar, so this will be harder for me than doing that, though it should be less painful than SRS, which I also don't do much of in a desire to avoid things I hate doing ;-)
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clara
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Re: Clara's Spanish Log

Postby clara » Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:47 pm

January 1 to 7

  • Pequeños fuegos por todas partes por Celeste Ng: 31% (+5% / 17 pages)
  • Temporada de huracanes por Fernanda Melchor: 100% (224 pages)
  • La perra por Pilar Quintana: 100% (112 pages)
  • Pedro Páramo por Juan Rulfo: 28% (37 pages)
  • Ella every day
  • Youtube and some audiobook listening to accompany reading
  • Conversation: None

Reading

Most of what I’ve done this week has been focused around reading and books. Even the Youtube I’ve watched has mostly been about books I’ve read or books I might want to read.

Temporada de huracanes

I was looking for a book with accompanying audio, and I came across Temporada de huracanes which was nominated for a bunch of awards. I listened to the sound sample available on Audible and had a hard time following along, so I thought I’d try the English audio to see if it was a language issue or me not being a good listener. Well, the English sample hooked me into the story! I read it over a few days, and listened to the Spanish audio for chapters 6 and 7, since I’d gotten used to the slang by then.

This book was great for language learning, and I loved the characters, but wow it was dark. There are 8 chapters, 3 of which are short, so the meat of the story is in the other 5, each of which is told as one looooooooong paragraph. I know I hated this “wall of text” style in Delirio, but I felt it made more sense in Temporada de huracanes, my Spanish level is better now, and I enjoyed the challenge of parsing the text this time around. There are shifts in POV, verb tenses, everything. Dialogue is thrown in without any markings to differentiate it. It kept me on my toes, plus I learned lots of new words that I’ll never use myself but have them filed away in passive vocabulary. The language is vulgar.

After reading Temporada de huracanes, I watched a few review videos and thought it was interesting to hear a Spanish reviewer say she had trouble with the Mexicanisms in the book. A Mexican reviewer talked a little bit about how the long paragraph format made it a little difficult for her to read, so I feel validated.





La perra

Next I read La perra which is only 112 pages. The language was easier, and I read it while listening to the audio, needing to stop occasionally. It was interesting to see a few uses of vos. I don’t have much else to say about this book other than it felt a bit shallow, especially after reading Temporada de huracanes. I was curious to learn more about the author if she had been writing from experience, but it turns out she is not at all like the character in her book: She is a well-educated white mother writing about a poor black woman who can not conceive. In this interview, she says that she wrote La perra on her phone while breastfeeding.



Other reading

Image

I started Pequeños fuegos por todas partes just before the new year and put it down to read Temporada de huracanes and La perra, prioritizing natively written Spanish material over translations. Then I started reading Pedro Páramo yesterday and wow, I guess I wasn’t expecting it to be confusing. I went in not knowing anything about the story, only that I’ve seen it recommended a lot and that it’s short and free with Kindle Unlimited, so I figured it’d be “easy.” LOL.

This is embarrassing to admit, but part of my problem with Pedro Paramo stemmed from not really understanding Spanish punctuation, specifically the difference between – and «». I don’t think I’ve ever seen them intermixed within the same section before, plus I was breezing through and may have confused the first « for a » which is totally different! According to this guide on punctuation, – is used for spoken dialogue and «» is used for thoughts. I don’t think that’s how it’s being used in Pedro Paramo. I think they are being used to interleave dialogue from two different scenes, and I hate to say that I’m not actually sure!

In any case, I read the first 20 pages twice, and I think I understand what is happening and how the story is being constructed, but maybe I’ll find out I was wrong all along as I get farther along. It was pretty late when I finished page 37 of Pedro Páramo, and I wondered if sleepiness was making my reading so slow. But then I picked up Pequeños fuegos por todas partes and breezed through a chapter.

Edit: Ok, I just read more, and I realize the «» are being used for thoughts, so I was probably wrong about interleaving dialogue from two different scenes. The thoughts are so disjointed from the dialogue that I assumed they must have been happening at a different time, but I think I was wrong... I think.
Last edited by clara on Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Spanish Goals
22/23 SC Films: 438 / 18000 438 / 18000 minutes
22/23 SC Books: 6454 / 10000 6454 / 10000 pages
2022 Reading: 8061 / 8000 8061 / 10000 8000 pages

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Cerebral_Arbitrage
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Re: Clara's Spanish Log

Postby Cerebral_Arbitrage » Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:14 pm

clara wrote:This is embarrassing to admit, but part of my problem with Pedro Paramo stemmed from not really understanding Spanish punctuation, specifically the difference between – and «». I don’t think I’ve ever seen them intermixed within the same section before, plus I was breezing through and may have confused the first « for a » which is totally different! According to this guide on punctuation, – is used for spoken dialogue and «» is used for thoughts. I don’t think that’s how it’s being used in Pedro Paramo. I think they are being used to interleave dialogue from two different scenes, and I hate to say that I’m not actually sure!


THANK YOU for pointing this out and adding the link. I have been reading my first novel and I was clearly not getting this difference either.
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365 Day Challenge: 0 / 365
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luke
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Re: Clara's Spanish Log

Postby luke » Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:42 pm

clara wrote:This is embarrassing to admit, but part of my problem with Pedro Paramo stemmed from not really understanding Spanish punctuation, specifically the difference between – and «». I don’t think I’ve ever seen them intermixed within the same section before, plus I was breezing through and may have confused the first « for a » which is totally different! According to this guide on punctuation, – is used for spoken dialogue and «» is used for thoughts. I don’t think that’s how it’s being used in Pedro Paramo. I think they are being used to interleave dialogue from two different scenes, and I hate to say that I’m not actually sure!

Thank you for giving me so much to think about!

I've been wondering about the -- versus <<>> for some time too. Even after reading the link you provided, I don't see the difference between:
–Estoy listo.

And this other example, where the the narrator appears to be picking up the story again:
–Me voy. –Cerró la puerta y salió.

I.E., that second example seems like somehow the second dash is meant to close off the first one AND it's put in an odd place. That is, I'm thinking this would be another example of "correct", as I'm understanding the rule based on the example:
–Estoy listo. –Cerré la puerta y salí.

Which would lead me to ask, "Is it only at the end of a paragraph that you don't have to start the next sentence with another raya"?

(not expecting you to answer that, clara, just thinking out loud. Maybe I should have put it in comillas). :)

You have me interested, and that's the first step in figuring things out. :) I'll have to start paying closer attention to the <<>> being thoughts. Like you, I'm a bit skeptical right now. (And I don't mean with all of the examples that included pensó. I'm just saying I hadn't noticed rayas as always being thoughts of a character.
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: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

clara
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Re: Clara's Spanish Log

Postby clara » Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:32 pm

Cerebral_Arbitrage wrote:THANK YOU for pointing this out and adding the link. I have been reading my first novel and I was clearly not getting this difference either.


I remember it throwing me on my first novel as well! Luckily, many books are pretty explicit by adding the equivalent of "he/she/I said/screamed/whatever" or "he/she/I thought" to make it clear who's saying or thinking what, but sometimes not. And the first time I came across », I remember intuiting what it meant but looked it up just to be sure. It's surprisingly different from English.

luke wrote:
Which would lead me to ask, "Is it only at the end of a paragraph that you don't have to start the next sentence with another raya"?



I'm not sure I understand this question, but after re-thinking about it for a while, these are my current thoughts (edited to color code examples to make it clearer):

– is always used in paragraphs that begin with spoken dialogue and to separate dialogue from descriptive text within such paragraphs. They never appear at the end of a paragraph.

–Spoken speech. –Description of speaker–. Continuation of spoken speech. –More description of speaker–. Even more spoken speech from same speaker.

«» is used for paragraphs that begin with unspoken thoughts. I suspect that a paragraph that starts with « is always a thought, otherwise it would have started with –, but I'm not sure!

«Thoughts that aren't spoken.»

«» can also be used for spoken or unspoken dialogue that begins in the middle of a paragraph, so they aren't limited to thoughts only, but their placement matters.

Thinker pensó: «Thoughts that aren't spoken.»

Speaker dijo: «Spoken words.»


» (not covered by that page) are used to connect multi-paragraph spoken dialogue:

–Spoken speech. –Description of speaker–. More spoken speech.
» A second paragraph of continuing spoken speech from the same speaker.
» A third paragraph of continuing spoken speech from the same speaker.
–Spoken speech from a new speaker.


It becomes unclear to me how a writer can interject description of a speaker or thinker into paragraphs of continuing dialogue. Maybe they're forced to start a new paragraph each time?
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Spanish Goals
22/23 SC Films: 438 / 18000 438 / 18000 minutes
22/23 SC Books: 6454 / 10000 6454 / 10000 pages
2022 Reading: 8061 / 8000 8061 / 10000 8000 pages

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luke
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Re: Clara's Spanish Log

Postby luke » Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:27 pm

clara wrote:«Thoughts that aren't spoken.»

«» can also be used for spoken or unspoken dialogue that begins in the middle of a paragraph, so they aren't limited to thoughts only, but their placement matters.

Muy interesante!

José Arcadio Buendía, con la ligereza de sus diecinueve años, resolvió el problema con una sola frase:
José Arcadio Buendía, with the whimsy of his nineteen years, resolved the problem with a single phrase:

«No me importa tener cochinitos, siempre que puedan hablar.»
“I don’t care if I have piglets as long as they are able to speak.”

So, he didn't necessarily say it to his wife, but he thought it. It's also supports the <<thoughts>> premise, as it says, No me importa tener cochinitos ("if I have piglets" and not "if we have piglets").
2 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

clara
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Re: Clara's Spanish Log

Postby clara » Fri Apr 29, 2022 10:02 pm

It's been a while since my last post! I fell ill to Covid shortly after my last update, and then I got into an English reading binge. I've been casually maintaining Spanish with conversation practice (I'm down to about an hour a week now), some news reading here and there, a little bit of youtube, and radio listening. Turns out there are 4 local radio stations that broadcast in Spanish, and I've mostly been listening to the pop/reggaeton station.

Reggaeton would have been way too fast for me a year ago, but my ear has gotten better. I still have to look up a LOT of lyrics, but I've gotten to point of singing along to a bunch of songs. Even my husband recognizes Bad Bunny's voice now, since they are constantly playing his songs! I was surprised to recognize a lot of the filming locations in this video:



Todo de ti by Rauw Alejandro is probably my current fave, since it's catchy and has a retro vibe and not full of posturing and bravado like some other songs. It took me forever to realize he's singing "Es que me gusta todo de ti" because I had a really hard time making out the "es que."



I just started reading again and finally finished Pequeños fuegos por todas partes. I also started Trilogía fuego which is young adult dystopian science fiction trilogy natively written in Spanish! I am surprised by how undeveloped the world feels, and some of the dialogue is absolutely inane, but I like that the plot is generally fast moving. I'll probably take a breather tomorrow and then dive into the next Super Challenge. I'm a little bit anxious about the film portion since I was completely Netflix'ed out after the last SC and am not really looking forward to it. I just have to remind myself that watching films and series absolutely helps with listening comprehension and is beneficial.

Image Image
6 x
Spanish Goals
22/23 SC Films: 438 / 18000 438 / 18000 minutes
22/23 SC Books: 6454 / 10000 6454 / 10000 pages
2022 Reading: 8061 / 8000 8061 / 10000 8000 pages

clara
Yellow Belt
Posts: 96
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:46 am
Languages: English (N), Spanish (intermediate)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... hp?t=16333
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Re: Clara's Spanish Log

Postby clara » Sun May 08, 2022 6:19 pm

May 1-7

  • El murmullo de las abejas: 119 pages (24%)
  • Las siete muertes de Evelyn Hardcastle: 74 pages (15%)
  • La venganza de las Juanas: Season 1, episodes 2 - 3
  • Ella conjugation practice every day
  • Conversation practice: 1 hour
  • Various news articles, youtube, radio

This week was a bit slower than I would have liked, but I’ve started the Super Challenge! I settled on El murmullo de las abejas, a Mexican novel that takes place in the early 20th century during the Mexican Revolution and the Spanish Flu epidemic, and Las siete muertes de Evelyn Hardcastle, a contemporary English novel that’s supposedly a fusion of a closed room murder mystery with time travel thrown in.

Image

El murmullo de las abejas is the first historical novel I’ve read in a long time. I’m learning a little bit about Mexican history. I was expecting to come across a lot more unknown vocabulary due to the setting, but I’m averaging about 1 unknown word per page, less than I encountered in Temporada de huracanes, a contemporary Mexican novel. I also have the audiobook, and have simultaneously listened/read half the time, and just read the other half. Surprisingly, I am faster at just reading, but I find it harder to keep my focus, so I suppose it averages out. Sometimes I feel the narrator speaks slowly or pauses for too long between sentences, but his speed isn’t very steady, so increasing the speed means other parts are too fast.

Image

Las siete muertes de Evelyn Hardcastle is a translation, but I like that there’s been a lot of use of Usted since the setting is formal, and it’s written in first person present tense.

My goal for May is to get back into the swing of reading. Once that’s been well established, I will get more into watching series and films. This week, I watched a couple episodes of La venganza de las Juanas, a Mexican telenovela about 5 women who meet and all have the same birthmark. There’s nothing notable about it, except I feel like my listening comprehension has improved since I last watched anything. I’ve barely used subtitles! I’m not sure if my brain is just willing to let go of more now, or if I’ve actually improved comprehension from audiobooks and/or radio listening. I suspect it’s the audiobooks. I’ve only listened to a couple, but I really like that they are much denser in content with more variety in vocabulary than series / news / music.
7 x
Spanish Goals
22/23 SC Films: 438 / 18000 438 / 18000 minutes
22/23 SC Books: 6454 / 10000 6454 / 10000 pages
2022 Reading: 8061 / 8000 8061 / 10000 8000 pages


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