Kelvin's RU, JP, ESP log <- In this order

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kelvin921019
Green Belt
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Languages: Cantonese (N)
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Spanish (B2)
Japanese (N1)
Russian (B1)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16306
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Re: JP, EN, ESP, [RU?] log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby kelvin921019 » Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:15 pm

Japanese: Tobira (Chpt 12)
Spanish: Revisiting B1 and B2 materials
English: Objective Proficiency
Russian: NPRC, LingQ


I read my first entry and realised that how naive I was in relation to language learning. I was deceived by the notion of "conversational fluency" and worked so hard to reach that level (B1), only turned out to be enough to embarrass myself. Now I go back and watch the videos of people having "conversational fluency", I realise how insufficient it is to me. In fact, even low B2 is neither "conversational" nor "fluent" in my opinion. The "conversational fluency" I imagined perhaps lies somewhere near high B2 to C1, which is to carry out effortless conversation on topics I'm familiar with in close to natural speed.

Japanese
I had my first speaking session, a trial lesson on Verbling. It stunts me that I can even screw up the most basic grammar, like the ending or some basic vocabulary when I'm speaking and for some reason my brain keep giving me Spainish interjection like "Dale" "y" "A ver...".

One thing on speaking spontaneously is that my brain has to go through the process of thinking the response and translating it into Japanese. This happens to my Spanish even up to now when the sentence / expression is too difficult to be constructed directly in my TL.
30 min is too little to carry out something meaningful this time. Perhaps next time I can discuss with my tutor how to improve my spoken language.

Spanish
Me doy cuenta de que mi castellano vengo empeorando desde que dejé de estudiar la lengua, concretamente después del examen DELE. Por eso, decidí repasar todos los vocabularios en los libros de texto que utilicé cuando me preparaba para el examen DELE. Pongo todos los vocabularios, tanto recuerdo como no, en Anki. Y trato de escribir la entrada acá en castellano. Ya me veo en la ultima clase que puedo hablar sin recurrir al diccionario muchas veces.

Ahora estoy repasando las listas de vocabularios en el libro "Preparación" del nivel B1 y B2. Después intentaré volver a repasar el libro "las claves de nuevo DELE B2". Quizá comenzaré hacer las prácticas de gramática en el libro "Gramatica de uso del español C1 - C2" lentamente para prepararme para avanzar al nivel C1. Planeo que solo demoro un máximo de 30 minutos cada día en estudiar castellano. No me apuro.

A la vez, ya he empezado a leer "Corazón tan blanco". lo estoy pasando lentamente por la dificultad de este libro respecto de mi proprio nivel.

Russian
I'm still slowly going through NPRC and thanks to Spanish and Japanese, I have a better grasp / handling of Russian grammar. Thanks to Spanish I know how to deal with 6 conjugations, how to comprehend the "gustar" form verb (e.g. меня зовут....). Thanks to Japanese I know how to dissect sentence into blocks of words and I understand case systems by drawing analogy to the particles of Japanese (of course they are very different).

I also from time to time spend a few minutes watching Super Easy Russian just to get a feel of how spoken Russian sounds and try to catch the words that I have learnt.
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lingua
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Maintaining: italiano (B2/C1ish)
Studying: português, Latina
Dabbling: siciliano, Deutsch, français, piemontèis
Abandoned: ไทย, español
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=12257
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Re: JP, ESP, RU log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby lingua » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:51 pm

With enough practice speaking gets easier. I can't remember anymore when I made the flip from having to consider what I'd say in Italian to it becoming natural. But these days I speak without thinking. I still make grammar errors but the difference is that I self-correct almost immediately. That doesn't mean it's always easy because anytime I speak on new subject I always find gaps in my vocabulary.
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Super Challenge 2022-23:
DE: books: 0 / 2500 film: 1654 / 4500
IT: books: 3065 / 5000 film: 5031 / 9000
PT: books: 2921 / 5000 film: 5010 / 9000

Output Challenge 2023:
IT: write: 0 / 50000 record: 84 / 3000
PT: write: 0 / 50000 record: 0 / 3000

PT: Read 100 books: 28 / 100

kelvin921019
Green Belt
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:11 pm
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Cantonese (N)
Chinese Mandarin (Semi-Native)
English (C1-2)
Spanish (B2)
Japanese (N1)
Russian (B1)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16306
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Re: JP, ESP, RU log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby kelvin921019 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:52 pm

Japanese: Tobira, Soumatome N3 Vocabulary
Spanish: Reviewing B1 and B2 materials
Russian: NPRC


This is going to be a long update...

I have removed English from the tag. While I'm committing myself in doing C2 practice, I am rushing it too much that I don't really absorb much. I will go through the entire book once first while doing tonnes of reading (because my shelf is packed with books waiting to be read). I plan to later spend 1 year working again on the book but will figure out a way to put the words into Anki.

I have finished the novel "the Catcher in the Rye". I thought I read fast but turn out it's level is around B1-2. I'm going to read something more difficult then.

Japanese
I'm going to quickly review a number of books I had and I just get:
- Assimil:
I have just reviewed Assimil a bit and turn out it's just easy for me. I think it simply doesn't worth going through it at all for me at this stage. In hindsight, I think Japanese Assimil unfortunately isn't the best method in learning Japanese. The language is too far away from both English and Chinese in terms of grammar and a more systematic grammar approach would be much better. I count it as money wasted unfortunately.

- N2 2500 words
I bought the N2 2500 words book. Originally I planned to work on Soumatome N2 only but on its cover it said the book only contains 1400 words only so I decided to learn more in order to secure a higher score. When I receive the book, it turns out that there's a grand total of 1546 words (so 1000 words are those associated with a grammatical item or a variant of some words). I don't even count it, they just numbered the words. I feel like being cheated again....but anyway I am going to stick to Soumatome N3 now then. The workload become so low that I'm planning to do something else

I had my first 1-hour long Verbling lesson. I'm going to do Japanese lesson once every two weeks. My teacher assessed me to be somewhere around N2 in terms of speaking but actually I'm still speaking very slowly and often make mistakes so fundamental like するです. I try to slow down a bit. I think I had so much luck that I found the appropriate teacher without much searching.

Lastly, I have finish 1 manga (迷宮飯 vol 1). It's not that difficult to comprehend when there's a dictionary in hand. I'm planning to start a novel / a non-fiction after finishing Tobira.

Russian
While I start to pick up some pattern in the construction of the language, it is still very difficult to remember new words. The words simply don't click in my mind at all. I am doing a L1 to L2 deck (with audio) but to be honest the words I know isn't enough for me to find materials for learning by context. I'm now in Chpt 7 of the book and just learn about adjectives.

I am planning to add 30 mins of Pimsleur starting from June (by that time I will only be revising Japanese but not learning much new things at all). I plan to use 1 - 2 levels of Pimsleur to fix my pronunciation and just hammer the most common words in my head.

Spanish
Corazon tan blanco IS VERY DIFFICULT. It has a lot of idiomatic expressions and new words. It has so much that I can progress at a rate of 4-5 pages one time even when I don't look up every word. The most difficult part is that the sentence structure is not that straight forward as Harry Potter for example and there are quite a lot of nuance in the sentence which requires me to read over and over again. I hope this is something I exactly need to push myself to a higher level.

In the meantime, I'm still revisiting the B1 vocabularies. This should be completed by next week.

As there will be some big change to my life in late 2021, I won’t start a new language even my Russian have reached B level. I have bought the book “comparative grammar of Spanish / French / Italian / Portuguese" just for fun and Assimil French because a water-downed new version is going to be published. Apart from that, I have purchased "Russian in practice" as the book to be worked on after I have finished Russian Assimil. I believe that Russian is a kind of language that requires a lot of grammar training in order to create a solid foundation. Needless to say, after Assimil this will be followed by also a tonnes of reading and listening.
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kelvin921019
Green Belt
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:11 pm
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Cantonese (N)
Chinese Mandarin (Semi-Native)
English (C1-2)
Spanish (B2)
Japanese (N1)
Russian (B1)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16306
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Re: JP, ESP, RU log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby kelvin921019 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 5:33 am

Short update
One thing I find very useful in doing an effective Anki review is that I usually go through all the words I have entered into Anki before sleep. I make sure I can answer them 100%. Sometimes I forget to do it (e.g. yesterday) and I will get a lot of "again" card in the anki review next day (i.e. today).

I should really keep up this habit because I have 10+ card with again and that's not really satisfactory to me.
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kelvin921019
Green Belt
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:11 pm
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Cantonese (N)
Chinese Mandarin (Semi-Native)
English (C1-2)
Spanish (B2)
Japanese (N1)
Russian (B1)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16306
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Re: JP, ESP, RU log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby kelvin921019 » Mon Mar 01, 2021 1:35 pm

Spanish update
I’m going through the list of B1 vocabulary and I realise that I have forgotten quite a lot (Frankly, most of them). I think I have done something correct. I am considering keeping a life long vocab anki deck for each of the language I'm going to learn in the future (including English).

I was adding 40 words a day from the list turn out I have to trim it down. Corazon tan blanco has a lot of new words to be added. I had to strike a balance between looking up words and continuing with this extremely interesting story.

As a side note, one very useful grammar learning technique is to ask “why” when reading. Actually that’s how I learn and internalize Spanish grammar after the Assimil stage. I often ask why when there are conjugations / tenses / moods which are counter-intuitive (my intuition to be precise). Then I will wonder what the tense / mood is trying to convey or just look up on google for any useful discussion.
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woshijiajun
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:02 am
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: N: Cantonese, Mandarin, Italian
C1~C2: Spanish, English
B1~B2: Taiwanese, Arabic, French, Japanese, Catalan
A1-A2: Danish, Norwegian, Latin, Ancient Greek
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Re: JP, ESP, RU log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby woshijiajun » Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:29 am

kelvin921019 wrote:I bought the N2 2500 words book. Originally I planned to work on Soumatome N2 only but on its cover it said the book only contains 1400 words only so I decided to learn more in order to secure a higher score. When I receive the book, it turns out that there's a grand total of 1546 words (so 1000 words are those associated with a grammatical item or a variant of some words). I don't even count it, they just numbered the words. I feel like being cheated again....but anyway I am going to stick to Soumatome N3 now then. The workload become so low that I'm planning to do something else


If I can make recommendations for JLPT vocab, specifically N2, I found the following books helpful. There's a huge overlap, obviously, and there's no official list to work from anymore, but they're definitely the most user friendly I found.

新日檢完勝單語N2
https://www.books.com.tw/products/0010751733

新日檢JLPT N2關鍵單字2,500
https://www.books.com.tw/products/0010818000

Since you mentioned workload, there is also the following book, which has sections running from N5 all the way up to N1. I like it because the sentences are very, very short, often only a few words, which make them easier to remember and quicker to get through, especially if you're typing them into Anki.

N5-N1新日檢單字大全
https://www.books.com.tw/products/0010672610
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kelvin921019
Green Belt
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:11 pm
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Cantonese (N)
Chinese Mandarin (Semi-Native)
English (C1-2)
Spanish (B2)
Japanese (N1)
Russian (B1)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16306
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Re: JP, ESP, RU log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby kelvin921019 » Tue Mar 02, 2021 2:42 am

woshijiajun wrote:
kelvin921019 wrote:I bought the N2 2500 words book. Originally I planned to work on Soumatome N2 only but on its cover it said the book only contains 1400 words only so I decided to learn more in order to secure a higher score. When I receive the book, it turns out that there's a grand total of 1546 words (so 1000 words are those associated with a grammatical item or a variant of some words). I don't even count it, they just numbered the words. I feel like being cheated again....but anyway I am going to stick to Soumatome N3 now then. The workload become so low that I'm planning to do something else


If I can make recommendations for JLPT vocab, specifically N2, I found the following books helpful. There's a huge overlap, obviously, and there's no official list to work from anymore, but they're definitely the most user friendly I found.

新日檢完勝單語N2
https://www.books.com.tw/products/0010751733

新日檢JLPT N2關鍵單字2,500
https://www.books.com.tw/products/0010818000

Since you mentioned workload, there is also the following book, which has sections running from N5 all the way up to N1. I like it because the sentences are very, very short, often only a few words, which make them easier to remember and quicker to get through, especially if you're typing them into Anki.

N5-N1新日檢單字大全
https://www.books.com.tw/products/0010672610


Thank you very much indeed! You have reminded me to purchase the N5-N1新日檢單字大全. I really need this one to fill my gaps in N3.

I have almost forgotten that I can simply purchase Japanese learning materials in book stores here in Hong Kong :lol: :lol:
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woshijiajun
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:02 am
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: N: Cantonese, Mandarin, Italian
C1~C2: Spanish, English
B1~B2: Taiwanese, Arabic, French, Japanese, Catalan
A1-A2: Danish, Norwegian, Latin, Ancient Greek
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Re: JP, ESP, RU log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby woshijiajun » Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:21 pm

kelvin921019 wrote:Thank you very much indeed! You have reminded me to purchase the N5-N1新日檢單字大全. I really need this one to fill my gaps in N3.

I have almost forgotten that I can simply purchase Japanese learning materials in book stores here in Hong Kong :lol: :lol:

Yes, N5-N1新日檢單字大全 it’s such an amazing book, so detailed and complete. I have had the same issue in that once you get to N2-N1 vocab acquisition seems more straight forward, but the lower levels seems kind of blurred together a bit and disagreement among the main textbooks about the “base” vocab. I find books like these really help fill in the gaps like you said and solidify what you know.

Yes so convenient buying in HK. With books.com.tw I just order to pick up in 七仔 :D Aiyooo I miss HK so much now! One more recommended book for you is 說出日本人的每一天-日本語會話8,000 (https://www.books.com.tw/products/00104 ... oc=main_mb) - extremely useful and really well organised into themed chapters and bilingual recording of all sentences so you can loop the audio during commute like Pimsleur/Glossika style :lol:
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kelvin921019
Green Belt
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:11 pm
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Cantonese (N)
Chinese Mandarin (Semi-Native)
English (C1-2)
Spanish (B2)
Japanese (N1)
Russian (B1)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16306
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Re: JP, ESP, RU log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby kelvin921019 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:33 pm

woshijiajun wrote:Yes, N5-N1新日檢單字大全 it’s such an amazing book, so detailed and complete. I have had the same issue in that once you get to N2-N1 vocab acquisition seems more straight forward, but the lower levels seems kind of blurred together a bit and disagreement among the main textbooks about the “base” vocab. I find books like these really help fill in the gaps like you said and solidify what you know.

Yes so convenient buying in HK. With books.com.tw I just order to pick up in 七仔 :D Aiyooo I miss HK so much now! One more recommended book for you is 說出日本人的每一天-日本語會話8,000 (https://www.books.com.tw/products/00104 ... oc=main_mb) - extremely useful and really well organised into themed chapters and bilingual recording of all sentences so you can loop the audio during commute like Pimsleur/Glossika style :lol:

I have just bought N5-N1新日檢單字大全 and slowly going through their N5 and N4 list. It appears that they have adopted a broader vocabulary than those in tobira and some of the words that I recently learn are marked as N4. In terms of volume I think this one is richer than other books (given its price...oh god that's a very cheap book).

Thank you for your recommendation!
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kelvin921019
Green Belt
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:11 pm
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Cantonese (N)
Chinese Mandarin (Semi-Native)
English (C1-2)
Spanish (B2)
Japanese (N1)
Russian (B1)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16306
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Re: JP, ESP, RU log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby kelvin921019 » Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:53 pm

Japanese: Tobira, Soumatome N3 Vocabulary
Spanish: Reviewing B1 and B2 materials
Russian: NPRC


One thing I have tried to do is to tone down all the intensity of the studies as I think it's not helpful to me and my stamina if I go full sprint everyday.

Japanese
I have just finished Chpt 13 of Tobira, the book starts to give you more native written material (which is less textbook style apparently) and apparently the grammar part starts to get shorter and shorter. Japanese remains to be my main focus in the first half of 2021 so it is the only language I won't tone down much. Yet, I limited the sentence translation task to less than 10 sentences (I used to translate 15-16 sentences everyday for the first 12 chapters and some of them are quite long).

After Tobira I will start a novel as my casual Japanese reading. This will be working in tandem with Soumatome N3 vocabulary book and the NKZM N3 book.

Spanish
I believe that I was rushing too much in the maintenance. Now apart from the 10 mins RTVE news, I reviewed close to 40 new words and on top of that a few page of Corazon tan blanco. After experiencing some stressful week, I now lower the progress to:
- RTVE news / or just Spanish news
- Review 20 new words
- 1 - 2 pages of Corazon tan blanco
Preferably getting everything done within 30 mins

Russian
I thought of doing Pimsleur, but later I think I’m just too insecure about my Russian progress.
I now think that NCPR should have served the same purpose as Pimsleur (to build a foundation, Assimil will take care of the listening and speaking / shadowing part). I have also ordered the book "Russian in Exercise", I plan to work on this book after Assimil as one of the resources to hone my grammar skill (likely I'll use it in tandem with reading / listening / LingQ.

I also adopted a more stringent policy for Russian Anki deck. Usually for spanish and japanese I click "easy" for new words that I answer correctly but for Russian can only do "good". I keep forgetting mixing words. It's a bit frustrating.

The vocabulary list starts to get very long for each chapter. I reckon it would be unwise to do the entire list in one go, especially when much of the words don't appear in the earlier part. Therefore, now before start of each lesson I need to first overview the amount of words in that list which are not covered in previous part. Then, I need to work backward on the amount of new words to be memorised each day so as to even out the studying of vocabularies.

Lastly, thanks to Russian I started to practice a lot of cursive (in Russian and also in English). I also switch to use a fountain pen for taking Russian notes. People around me are quite surprised that suddenly my handwriting improved quite a lot :lol: :lol:
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