Kelvin's RU, JP, ESP log <- In this order

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kelvin921019
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Re: JP, EN, ESP, [RU?] log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby kelvin921019 » Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:17 pm

Japanese Progress Report
Before I recap my Japanese progress, I just did a N2 past paper:
Vocab: 19/32 (got 1 question correct by wild guess)
Grammar: 14/22 (got 4 questions correct by wild guess)
Reading: 18/21
Listening: 25/30
As expected, Vocab and Grammar remain to be my weakness.
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kelvin921019
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Re: JP, EN, ESP, [RU?] log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby kelvin921019 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:04 am

1 year recap: Japanese
I started Japanese with Spanish together. Bearing in mind the advice that I shouldn't go full-power in 2 languages, most of the time my Japanese needed to give way to Spanish.

As compare to Spanish, I tried the less conventional Lingodeer, Assimil, Glossika route. I managed to get myself to N5 level using Lingodeer with a N5 vocabulary list. My first year Japanese journey revolve around 2 themes: time management and giving up resources

As I have to give way to Spanish, I have to keep my Japanese studies within 1 hour. Unfortunately, I have chosen to start the Japanese study with Lingodeer + Assimil combo, which as time progress eat up quite a lot of my time. Furthermore, the Assimil Japanese book is really not a good book as it lacks explanation for some essential grammar item. I admit that I struggled a lot as Assimil is not a cheap book. I then move along with Lingodeer.
Lesson to learn: give up resources that doesn't work as soon as possible

Originally, I planned to proceed with Tobira right after Lingodeer 2, which should have covered all N4 items. However, I realized that Lingodeer has not covered all N4 item and it lacks so many vocabulary before I can move on to Tobira. I then took a decision to rewind a bit and work on Genki II and a N4 vocabulary book to strengthen my foundation. This is the best decision I have taken because with the foundation of Genki II and the vocab book I have built a strong foundation for me to proceed to Tobira, which would have been a big struggle had I decided not to go back a bit to work on Genki II.
Lesson to learn: it doesn't hurt to start again using different resource if the one you're using isn't good enough

Now I'm working on Tobira with the intensity with which I worked on with Spanish Assimil (bidirectional translation + Anki). Tobira indeed is a very good resources but it still has gaps with N3 grammar. That's why I plan to fill the gaps with NKZM book before moving on to N2 stuff. Tobira is much longer than Assimil (it has 15 lesson and I work on it 1 lesson per week, so it will be a 4-month long programme for me).

Lastly, one thing I noticed is that the grammar and vocab in Japanese is arranged differently. Some expression which can be expressed in 1 word in European language has 3-4 corresponding expression in Japanese for example "even" depends on context you have さえ、でも、まで, while some complicated grammatical structures in European language e.g. conditional tense has no equivalent in Japanese. I think this makes Japanese very different from European languages in terms of what counts as beginner item and what counts as intermediate item. Perhaps, I just wonder, if this is why it is difficult for CEFR level to be applicable in Japanese.
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vonPeterhof
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Re: JP, EN, ESP, [RU?] log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby vonPeterhof » Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:21 pm

kelvin921019 wrote:Lastly, one thing I noticed is that the grammar and vocab in Japanese is arranged differently. Some expression which can be expressed in 1 word in European language has 3-4 corresponding expression in Japanese for example "even" depends on context you have さえ、でも、まで, while some complicated grammatical structures in European language e.g. conditional tense has no equivalent in Japanese. I think this makes Japanese very different from European languages in terms of what counts as beginner item and what counts as intermediate item. Perhaps, I just wonder, if this is why it is difficult for CEFR level to be applicable in Japanese.

Not sure what you mean by a conditional tense in European languages. Aren't -eba, -tara and to (as in "そうすると…") close enough equivalents? [Writing this out made me realize that you might have meant the subjunctive mood, which does in fact have no direct equivalent in Japanese]

As for CEFR, there's a simple reason why CEFR levels can't be applied to Japanese which has nothing to do with the language's inherent features - it's just that there is no mainstream CEFR-compliant Japanese proficiency test available. Since the JLPT, the de facto standard Japanese proficiency test, is entirely multiple choice and has no tasks testing active skills (speaking and writing) it can't be directly mapped onto a CEFR scale.
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kelvin921019
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Re: JP, EN, ESP, [RU?] log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby kelvin921019 » Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:43 pm

vonPeterhof wrote:Not sure what you mean by a conditional tense in European languages. Aren't -eba, -tara and to (as in "そうすると…") close enough equivalents? [Writing this out made me realize that you might have meant the subjunctive mood, which does in fact have no direct equivalent in Japanese]

As for CEFR, there's a simple reason why CEFR levels can't be applied to Japanese which has nothing to do with the language's inherent features - it's just that there is no mainstream CEFR-compliant Japanese proficiency test available. Since the JLPT, the de facto standard Japanese proficiency test, is entirely multiple choice and has no tasks testing active skills (speaking and writing) it can't be directly mapped onto a CEFR scale.


By conditional tense, I mean something like “If I were you, I would eat this cake”
I would translate it to 私だったら、このケーキを食べます (no conjugation needed)
That's true that there's no CEFR-compliant Japanese proficiency test available. All in all it’s just my feeling that the progress of learning Japanese is different from English and Spanish. Or simply that CEFR is applicable to "European languages" (the E stands for European) only? I don't know :lol: :lol:
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vonPeterhof
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Re: JP, EN, ESP, [RU?] log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby vonPeterhof » Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:22 pm

kelvin921019 wrote:By conditional tense, I mean something like “If I were you, I would eat this cake”
I would translate it to 私だったら、このケーキを食べます (no conjugation needed)

That does sound more like the subjunctive to me (although it might be outside the scope of what the term "subjunctive" refers to in English grammar in particular). In my mind "conditional" refers to the "If I were you" part.
kelvin921019 wrote:That's true that there's no CEFR-compliant Japanese proficiency test available. All in all it’s just my feeling that the progress of learning Japanese is different from English and Spanish. Or simply that CEFR is applicable to "European languages" (the E stands for European) only? I don't know :lol: :lol:

I mean the CEFR criteria aren't exactly a mystery, and there doesn't seem to be anything in there that would exclude non-European languages (the limiting factors I see have less to do with grammar and more with sociolinguistic factors, like the difficulty in applying the "radio or TV programmes" or the "professional purposes" parts to minoritized languages that have no presence in the media or professional contexts, but such languages exist in Europe as well). The "European" part in the title simply refers to the place (and the institutional environment) where the framework was put together.
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kelvin921019
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Re: JP, EN, ESP, [RU?] log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby kelvin921019 » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:43 pm

Japanese: Tobira
Spanish: Maintenance
English: Objective Proficiency
Russian: NPRC, LingQ


Japanese
I decided to start doing online lesson because I think I need some push (like talking about things out of my comfort zone). For the time being, I will start doing Spanish and Japanese lesson alternatively so as to save cost and save time. I simply can't afford spending so much time on speaking.

I also tried skipping subtitles in watching news but it's still very hard for me. Luckily my native Chinese is helping me to catch the difficult Kanji, helping to

Spanish
Next book will be Corazon tan blanco. In the meantime, I'm looking for some 24h news channel so that I can move one step forward than just the 10 mins segment of RTVE. I wish to find some hardcore 24h news channel like the one in RTVE or Euronews but in Argentinian accent (that's the accent I'm going to work on now), it turns out that 24h news channel are more geared towards a chatty style instead of the anchor reading news style.

Russian
Finally arrive the hardcopy of my penguin and Assimil book. My coming plan will be work on penguin book + LingQ until July and I will add in Assimil + bidirectional translation. Under my study style, the penguin book is already sufficient to cater for my need.
- as to the lack of audio, I make use of Forvo to obtain audio for set phrases, expression, sentence / grammatical item (e.g. в Москве)
- as to the lack of exercise, I just translate every sentence in the book the next day I finish a section. I also put some short sentences into anki (e.g. я еду на автобусе)
The first 2 lesson really scares me as I have so much difficulty remembering phrases / words that's so distinct from English. Luckily I realize that there are quite a lot of cognates and false cognates between English and Russian. Some may say false cognate is harmful, but what's more unforgettable than a bad joke that your friend in Russian is drug (друг) or you work hard to labour that (работать)

English
I'm now reading The Cather in the Rye, which is not too helpful but fun. This tiny book is good for training up my reading speed. One of my weakness is speed reading. This will be one of the main area I need to work on for English and Spanish.

Short term goals
Japanese (in terms of priority): Conversation lesson -> N2 + finish one non-fiction -> finish one novel and start skipping subtitles
Spanish: complete review of all the B1 and B2 materials (basically keying in all the words into anki) -> finish Corazon tan blanco + la Sombra del Viento
English: complete Objective Proficiency -> finish all my books on the shelves -> C2 exam?
Russian: One Penguin a day -> Assimil
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rpg
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Re: JP, EN, ESP, [RU?] log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby rpg » Tue Feb 16, 2021 5:18 pm

kelvin921019 wrote: Spanish
Next book will be Corazon tan blanco.


I was just thinking about this book yesterday! I think I've read the first 100 pages or so several times now before something inevitably comes up and I put it down, and I was just thinking it was time for me to finish it for real :) Hope you enjoy!
0 x
Super challenge 2020/21
French reading: 4534 / 5000      Spanish reading: 81 / 5000
French movies: 115 / 150       Spanish movies: 98 / 150

kelvin921019
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Re: JP, EN, ESP, [RU?] log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby kelvin921019 » Tue Feb 16, 2021 6:45 pm

rpg wrote:
kelvin921019 wrote: Spanish
Next book will be Corazon tan blanco.


I was just thinking about this book yesterday! I think I've read the first 100 pages or so several times now before something inevitably comes up and I put it down, and I was just thinking it was time for me to finish it for real :) Hope you enjoy!

The first 2 page of the book was used as a grammar exercise in my B2 practice book. The moment I read it I immediately ordered the book, I really look forward to reading it as well :lol: :lol:
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rpg
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Re: JP, EN, ESP, [RU?] log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby rpg » Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:38 pm

kelvin921019 wrote:
rpg wrote:
kelvin921019 wrote: Spanish
Next book will be Corazon tan blanco.


I was just thinking about this book yesterday! I think I've read the first 100 pages or so several times now before something inevitably comes up and I put it down, and I was just thinking it was time for me to finish it for real :) Hope you enjoy!

The first 2 page of the book was used as a grammar exercise in my B2 practice book. The moment I read it I immediately ordered the book, I really look forward to reading it as well :lol: :lol:


Hah that wouldn't happen to be Las claves del nuevo DELE B2 would it? By María Pilar Soria, María José Martínez, and Daniel Sánchez? When I was studying in Peru a few years ago we went through that book and it also contained an excerpt from the beginning of the novel. I think that was also what inspired me to buy the book, though I'm aware of Javier Mariás independently of that too--he gets talked about a lot in the same breaths as some other contemporary novelists that interest me, like Laszlo Krasznahorkai. Anyway this conversation is inspiring me to return to Corazón tan blanco and finish it for real this time; perhaps we will be motivation for each other to make it through :lol:
1 x
Super challenge 2020/21
French reading: 4534 / 5000      Spanish reading: 81 / 5000
French movies: 115 / 150       Spanish movies: 98 / 150

kelvin921019
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Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2020 12:11 pm
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16306
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Re: JP, EN, ESP, [RU?] log: I thought life would be easier but no....

Postby kelvin921019 » Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:35 am

rpg wrote:Hah that wouldn't happen to be Las claves del nuevo DELE B2 would it? By María Pilar Soria, María José Martínez, and Daniel Sánchez? When I was studying in Peru a few years ago we went through that book and it also contained an excerpt from the beginning of the novel. I think that was also what inspired me to buy the book, though I'm aware of Javier Mariás independently of that too--he gets talked about a lot in the same breaths as some other contemporary novelists that interest me, like Laszlo Krasznahorkai. Anyway this conversation is inspiring me to return to Corazón tan blanco and finish it for real this time; perhaps we will be motivation for each other to make it through :lol:

Oh dear, that's exactly where I have found that excerpt. :lol: :lol:
I actual forgot that I was doing an exam practice when I was reading that excerpt because it was so intriguing. I can't wait to finish this book.
Isn't that a perfect illustration of how interesting Javier Mariás's work is? We both got hooked onto the same excerpt :D :D
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