Gustav Aschenbach wrote:PeterMollenburg wrote:And this sounds similar to me. In fact your experience makes me feel a little better and not so ridiculously slow with my approach to French learning despite thousands of hours. But then how on earth do they come up with only hundreds of hours (FSI, Alliance Française etc). It makes no sense, unless they are absolutely targeted studying methods for the exams... AND they are not counting the extra study outside of the classroom.
I don‘t know where these numbers come from nor do I know them. Is FSI comparable to the CEFR levels? My guess would be that it‘s hundreds of hours of classroom studies PLUS immersion in the country. Some people even say that you can‘t reach a C2 level if you‘re not living in the country where the language is spoken.
Look what I‘ve found, it say 1,000-1,200 hours until C2 (p. 4):
http://www.englishprofile.org/images/pd ... ToCEFR.pdf
But I would take these numbers with a grain of salt.
Bolding on last part mine. Yes I agree.
Gustav Aschenbach wrote:PeterMollenburg wrote:That's a good point. Then what about the numerous members on this forum who claim C2 in several languages? I suspect there are only a few valid claims among them, and quite frankly I'm almost at a point of saying if you haven't actually passed an exam of the level you claim, then I am not necessarily going to believe you even if you actually are at that level. No proof, I have doubts. Period.
Good question, I would rather say the opposite: you can pass a C2 level exam but your actual skills don‘t correspond fully to the descriptors of the level in question. Do you think all of those who claim to have a C2 level really fulfill the following requirements?
https://www.coe.int/en/web/common-europ ... nguage-use
Just a few quotes:Can express him/herself spontaneously at length with a natural colloquial flow, avoiding or backtracking around any difficulty so smoothly that the interlocutor is hardly aware of it.
Can interact with ease and skill, picking up and using non-verbal and intonational cues apparently effortlessly. Can interweave his/her contribution into the joint discourse with fully natural turntaking, referencing, allusion making etc.
Well, agreed again.
Gustav Aschenbach wrote:Professor Argüelles is a genius
I disagree. I don't think the man has any special talent per sé. He's developed himself according to his interest. In short, he's had the time, enthusiasm and commitment. All this can be trained. In fact he is a shiny example of what most people are capable of but most people either are not in a position to commit to such an endeavour due to other commitments, health issues, mental health issues, other interests/goals, financially cannot afford such large chunks of time not working, simply don't want to or don't know how/understand/believe they can achieve such things. That is where a good portion of his legacy rests, I feel. That you too can learn languages (how many, up to you), if you commit yourself and develop your discipline. The method doesn't have to be the same, as discipline needs to be coupled with motivation to achieve such things. Thus, commit yourself, have the time, do it (your way).
I'm not attempting to negate his awe-inspiring track record here either. I think it's outstanding what he's done. However, as many other forum members also prove, this can be done. It's a matter of time, motivation and application. Of course, some of us might learn a 1/4 of the amount of languages the good professor has learned with the same amount of time. Others might learn one or two more. He does appear to be at the upper end of human skill level in this department, but again, I dont feel he's a genius. Very intelligent, yes and much wisdom gained through his experience it seems. Of course, my comments are made without knowing the guy and without watching half as many videos of some others round these parts, so, I could be completely wrong.
Gustav Aschenbach wrote:but passing the so-called "airplane test" only means that he has attained a rather high passive (reading) level of the language. It doesn‘t mean that he can produce it to a high level. I have read many if not all of his posts in the old forum, and he said that he basically only reads textbooks and then literature (great books), but doesn't consume newspapers, TV, radio… Do you think you can reach a C2 level with only books, audio books and a few weeks immersion in the country? For example his Russian (that was in 2014, around 10 years into his Russian studies, I guess):
He's also reading aloud some French from around 1:25:00.
And then of course there might be some members on this forum who claim to have passed a C2 level exam without having actually done so.
Yeah, all this seems valid. I listened to the snippet of his French you pointed out. It's probably unfair to judge on such a small amount of French, and although it's not terrible and in fact it seems quite good, really, he doesn't sound as smooth as he could be. Then again switching from Russian to French is probably going to do that to many people. I'd bet that had he been reading French for 10 minutes he'd sound smoother. Also, this is a long time ago. Was he as good in French then? Who knows (someone actually probably does).
I want to again point out that I consider his achievements awe-inspiring, perhaps one of a kind on the planet or at least in very rare company in terms of polyglots around the world, but I guess it's easy to look at his videos with a critical eye (and ear) and compare oneself when we have some knowledge and experience in the field. I'd love to meet the guy, but not in a Hollywood fan/celebrity style. Simply because I think the guy has a lot of experience and wisdom that he'd impart a thing or two that might help my studies and it's great just to share company with others passionate about languages, especially those who enjoy a good text book. I'd appreciate the same from many a LLorg member as well (that is sharing some time, hanging out, bla bla bla), if only I could make some of the gatherings.... too far... too expensive to get there, but maybe some day i'll be in the vicinity.