PM's Norwegian Plandemic

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PeterMollenburg
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Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
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Re: PM's Norwegian Plandemic

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:04 am

Gustav Aschenbach wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:And this sounds similar to me. In fact your experience makes me feel a little better and not so ridiculously slow with my approach to French learning despite thousands of hours. But then how on earth do they come up with only hundreds of hours (FSI, Alliance Française etc). It makes no sense, unless they are absolutely targeted studying methods for the exams... AND they are not counting the extra study outside of the classroom.


I don‘t know where these numbers come from nor do I know them. Is FSI comparable to the CEFR levels? My guess would be that it‘s hundreds of hours of classroom studies PLUS immersion in the country. Some people even say that you can‘t reach a C2 level if you‘re not living in the country where the language is spoken.

Look what I‘ve found, it say 1,000-1,200 hours until C2 (p. 4):

http://www.englishprofile.org/images/pd ... ToCEFR.pdf

But I would take these numbers with a grain of salt.


Bolding on last part mine. Yes I agree.
Gustav Aschenbach wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:That's a good point. Then what about the numerous members on this forum who claim C2 in several languages? I suspect there are only a few valid claims among them, and quite frankly I'm almost at a point of saying if you haven't actually passed an exam of the level you claim, then I am not necessarily going to believe you even if you actually are at that level. No proof, I have doubts. Period.


Good question, I would rather say the opposite: you can pass a C2 level exam but your actual skills don‘t correspond fully to the descriptors of the level in question. Do you think all of those who claim to have a C2 level really fulfill the following requirements?

https://www.coe.int/en/web/common-europ ... nguage-use

Just a few quotes:

Can express him/herself spontaneously at length with a natural colloquial flow, avoiding or backtracking around any difficulty so smoothly that the interlocutor is hardly aware of it.

Can interact with ease and skill, picking up and using non-verbal and intonational cues apparently effortlessly. Can interweave his/her contribution into the joint discourse with fully natural turntaking, referencing, allusion making etc.


Well, agreed again.

Gustav Aschenbach wrote:Professor Argüelles is a genius


I disagree. I don't think the man has any special talent per sé. He's developed himself according to his interest. In short, he's had the time, enthusiasm and commitment. All this can be trained. In fact he is a shiny example of what most people are capable of but most people either are not in a position to commit to such an endeavour due to other commitments, health issues, mental health issues, other interests/goals, financially cannot afford such large chunks of time not working, simply don't want to or don't know how/understand/believe they can achieve such things. That is where a good portion of his legacy rests, I feel. That you too can learn languages (how many, up to you), if you commit yourself and develop your discipline. The method doesn't have to be the same, as discipline needs to be coupled with motivation to achieve such things. Thus, commit yourself, have the time, do it (your way).

I'm not attempting to negate his awe-inspiring track record here either. I think it's outstanding what he's done. However, as many other forum members also prove, this can be done. It's a matter of time, motivation and application. Of course, some of us might learn a 1/4 of the amount of languages the good professor has learned with the same amount of time. Others might learn one or two more. He does appear to be at the upper end of human skill level in this department, but again, I dont feel he's a genius. Very intelligent, yes and much wisdom gained through his experience it seems. Of course, my comments are made without knowing the guy and without watching half as many videos of some others round these parts, so, I could be completely wrong.

Gustav Aschenbach wrote:but passing the so-called "airplane test" only means that he has attained a rather high passive (reading) level of the language. It doesn‘t mean that he can produce it to a high level. I have read many if not all of his posts in the old forum, and he said that he basically only reads textbooks and then literature (great books), but doesn't consume newspapers, TV, radio… Do you think you can reach a C2 level with only books, audio books and a few weeks immersion in the country? For example his Russian (that was in 2014, around 10 years into his Russian studies, I guess):



He's also reading aloud some French from around 1:25:00.

And then of course there might be some members on this forum who claim to have passed a C2 level exam without having actually done so.


Yeah, all this seems valid. I listened to the snippet of his French you pointed out. It's probably unfair to judge on such a small amount of French, and although it's not terrible and in fact it seems quite good, really, he doesn't sound as smooth as he could be. Then again switching from Russian to French is probably going to do that to many people. I'd bet that had he been reading French for 10 minutes he'd sound smoother. Also, this is a long time ago. Was he as good in French then? Who knows (someone actually probably does).

I want to again point out that I consider his achievements awe-inspiring, perhaps one of a kind on the planet or at least in very rare company in terms of polyglots around the world, but I guess it's easy to look at his videos with a critical eye (and ear) and compare oneself when we have some knowledge and experience in the field. I'd love to meet the guy, but not in a Hollywood fan/celebrity style. Simply because I think the guy has a lot of experience and wisdom that he'd impart a thing or two that might help my studies and it's great just to share company with others passionate about languages, especially those who enjoy a good text book. I'd appreciate the same from many a LLorg member as well (that is sharing some time, hanging out, bla bla bla), if only I could make some of the gatherings.... too far... too expensive to get there, but maybe some day i'll be in the vicinity.
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PeterMollenburg
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
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Re: PM's Norwegian Plandemic

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:28 am

Xenops wrote:
Gustav Aschenbach wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:So, 6000 hours of French and I have not passed the C2. [...] And then there's Professor Arguelles, right? Many languages every day, bite-sized chunks. He's not gifted, as aren't most polyglots. He was committed, he had the time, he had the enthusiasm. It can be done. I don't have as much time, I am committed, I have the drive. [...] I could do it, as Arguelles did in a monk-like existence, but hey even he has changed his objectives with a family and other interests. So, yes I might achieve those study hours, but throwing all five or six languages in the mix means I must commit for the long haul around everything else known and unknown in future.


I don't think he has reached a C2 level in any of the languages he started studying during this time/he studied in this fashion.


I guess I read this, PM and Gustav, and I wonder--what's the motivation to juggle so many at once? In Arguelles' case, and in the case of many members of this forum, the very learning process of the language itself is a very pleasant way to spend time. If it's something they look forward to, then it is easy to make it a habit, and before they realize it, they can actually do a lot in the target language. And then there is another group, where people learn a language for a specific need--move to another country, get a promotion, speak with their in-laws, etc.

So as a rhetorical question, what's your motivation to study more than two languages at once? It doesn't sound like it's for a specific reason in particular. Do you enjoy studying that many languages at once? If so, why the pressure to "commit for the long haul"? If a hobby isn't fun, why continue it? Why put so much pressure on a decision regarding a hobby, when like you said, life is unpredictable?

For myself, I realized that if I start learning a language for fun, the world will not end if I lose interest. ;) You don't have to "marry" a language for life.


A few reflections on your ponderings, Xenops...

I do indeed enjoy the textbook learning process. The pressure comes not from the language learning itself but the fight against time, and of course the more languages I add the more I need to be on top of my time management. That's something which I'm already pretty good at and some people are amazed I fit so much in (others might not find it that amazing), while I'd have to improve further and run like an efficient machine for years on end. So, in the end I somewhat come to my senses by feeling it's best I limit the number of languages, again not from language learning pressure per sé, but rather unforeseen cirucumstances that may arise, along with the notion of giving oneself some wriggle room in an already tight schedule. Ultimately though, it's really probably very possible for me to learn five or six languages simultaneously around other committments, since I'm going to use all that time for one, two or three languages anyway, it's just whether I want to reduce the time I study each language to fit in more languages in each day and therefore commit for the long haul (since it will take longer to attain any given level in each language).

But to get to the core of the question, I think it's an ego thing. Why do people get enjoyment out of anything. I think it's an ego thing. They derive some kind of pleasure out of the process or the end goal, or even an imagined pleasure at achieving the end goal, which may never come to be realised (i.e. it doesn't turn out to be what one had puffed something up to be in the end) and be somewhat of a let-down. But I'm turning a little philosophical here, and I must admit that maybe some of us are just simply drawn to some things while others aren't. Is that innate (was it lying dormant in the individual at birth awaiting an awakening?) or something picked up along the way?

I do argue that I have some valid reasons for learning my languages, but I'd rather not get into those right now too much as I've already detailed that in the past, but all in all they are perhaps good excuses to learn what I simply like learning. I enjoy the process very much, but I also really enjoy reaching a level in which I can utilise the language for communication (speaking, listening, reading etc). So, when I sit down to learn languages, I do enjoy it, but I am actually very invested in progress and attaining a certain level. I used to dislike the study somewhat, but I've come to value the process. We spend too much time wishing away our time because we want things instantly, life's a journey, right?
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PeterMollenburg
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
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Re: PM's Norwegian Plandemic

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Dec 22, 2020 3:40 am

So I've been doing some more ponderings and I've concluded the same. 2021 shall be for Norwegian and since I'm uncomfortable with reducing FR and NL to maintenance mode (one at quite an accomplished level, the other in pieces), it will be one year only for solid NO study so that I can return and pursue further language growth in NL and FR again with NO joining that picture in 2022 - that picture being no one language getting all of the attention.

Thus, I will do as much Norwegian as humanly possible (for me ;) ). Like I used to attack my French, I will attack my Norwegian (but maintain FR and NL in the background). I'll attack it very much so, given I'll only have one year to attack the hell out of it and a lot of materials to get through.

Perhaps I will get to 2022 and think, no I need to do this for another year. Well, who cares, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. All I know for now is, I'll make the most out of 2021 with NO.

I hope everyone out there has a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

And remember, just because it seems everyone else believes it is so, does not mean it is so ;)
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Gustav Aschenbach
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Re: PM's Norwegian Plandemic

Postby Gustav Aschenbach » Tue Dec 22, 2020 7:20 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:
Gustav Aschenbach wrote:Professor Argüelles is a genius


I disagree. I don't think the man has any special talent per sé. (...)


I agree with what you have written, but don't forget that Argüelles' father is a linguist and a polyglot himself. His intelligence is clearly above average.


I listened to the snippet of his French you pointed out. It's probably unfair to judge on such a small amount of French, and although it's not terrible and in fact it seems quite good, really, he doesn't sound as smooth as he could be. Then again switching from Russian to French is probably going to do that to many people. I'd bet that had he been reading French for 10 minutes he'd sound smoother. Also, this is a long time ago. Was he as good in French then? Who knows (someone actually probably does).


I know it :lol: He started studying French in high school and chose French and German as a double major at university, he raised his kids speaking French exclusively etc. I don't say his French is bad! But I guess it could be even better if he had put more focus on it. And again I doubt that you can reach an actual C2 level by concentrating on literature only and totally avoiding newspapers, TV etc. If you really want to master a language there are just sooooo many things you have to learn...
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PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
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Re: PM's Norwegian Plandemic

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:31 am

I'm pretty much done with this log, but my Norwegian adventure continues over at my new log, found here:

PM's 2021 Log - The Norwegian Resistance - Target 1000 hrs +++



Edit:
My hours of learning for December 2020:

French 11 hours, 20 min

Dutch 9 hours, 11 min

Norwegian 44 hours, 11 min
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