PM's Norwegian Plandemic

[PeterMollenburg]

November 2020 totals:

Norwegian 61 hours 1 minute
French 10 hours 5 minutes
Dutch 4 hours 1 minute

A total of 75 hours and 7 minutes of language learning. It's perhaps a bit, or slightly above my average for a month. Not too bad for moving house and changing jobs and hitting wombats and being under a lot of stress at times. Not good enough to win the 6WC at this rate for Norwegian, but good enough to do alright

Around two weeks left of the 6WC, then I think I'll revert to 1 hour of each language a day as my aim. See how that goes, my plans change as often as most around these parts (okay maybe a little more for me ).

I'm continuing with Assimil as my main desk study resource followed by The Mystery of Nils. However, I've predominantly been using audio courses for the last few weeks with my Norwegian audio course time double that of my desk study time for Norwegian for the month of November, but it's now beginning to shift back the other way. Since I'd been using audio so much though, I had to go back and revise a lot when returning to Assimil and The Mystery of Nils, but it's no drama.

I used to see stopping and starting different courses as a bit of a big issue, but now I don't think it matters what you use or stop and start using too much as long as you're engaging with the language. If you forget something somewhat because you haven't used it for a couple of weeks, well that's a good opportunity to revise and strengthen the neural pathways like a delayed spaced repetition.

Of course, it's also important to remain consistent and I think using a certain course or courses regularly works well for building the foundations of a language and that's partly how many of the language courses are designed to be used, and in particular how Assimil works (better). Use it daily and then you won't have to revise old material quite as much as you progress and strengthen your foundation little by little.

Additionally, despite my above statements, I personally do prefer to start any given course and work through to the end of it. Still, I've had to put down a few courses lately and realise I won't get back to them for a while as I will end up spreading myself too thin. Two courses are enough for now, particularly given I'm going to step down my Norwegian tempo again in a couple of weeks.

Nevertheless trialing different content/courses is a good idea when starting out I feel, since it allows you to choose which course(s) you're going to settle on as your focus. For me it also allowed me to focus more on Norwegian pronunciation, as I feel it's perhaps the trickiest aspect of the language (if you want to try to perfect it), as it was presented differently at the beginning of each course - some with more detail than others, some with points not covered in others, and so on.

Assimil will remain my go to course when I finish the 6WC with The Mystery of Nils second again. How I feel over the period between this 6WC and the next 6WC will determine whether or not I feel it's a good idea to enter the 6WC again next time round for Norwegian, but I'm leaning towards yes. 6 weeks of balance, 6 weeks of intense Norwegian during the 6WC(s?) sounds like a good routine perhaps for 2021, but hey, if you've been following me around these parts for a while, pay no attention to my plans!

Throw a poorly pronounced p over your shoulder, for realio.

[PeterMollenburg]

The 6 Week Challenge...

Due to some unexpected gains on my part which saw me go on a run of healthy study days racking up the hours and alaart4's unfortunate coming to a grinding halt while signicantly out in front by a dozen country miles, I somehow stole victory in the final two weeks of the 6WC.

It's time to charge your Viking horns and thump your wooden shields, yes, it's already the end of the November 2020 6 Week Challenge! And after counting up the hours, I'm happy to report we have our first ever win for target hours with Norwegian!!

And listen...do you hear that? Rising from the distant great hall, a big raucous cheer spreads out across the land and out to Valhalla for PMollenburg, scoring gold in his very first appearance in the Challenge. This is shortly followed by a chorus of colorful merry oaths for alaart4's 3 successive medals in a row and carld734's 4th medal for target hours.

And so on to total hours...and by Odin, serpentserpent849 and languagewitch_ have scored gold and bronze respectively in the same positions for 3 challenges in a row, flanking our current challenge's silver medalist lingua2016. What's going on? What witchcraft is this?? Whatever the sorcery involved, 'tis well fought. Warriors raise your battle axes in salute to all the hours and energy these heroes have invested!

And congratulations, as always, to everyone who took part this year. With 2021 looming on the horizon like Northern Lights, it's perhaps time to look at the path behind you that lead you to this point in time, with a view to looking forward to all the new possibilities and adventures that lay ahead.

Never give up on your hopes and always believe in yourself, no matter what the naysayers and haters do to otherwise trip you up or keep you down. So long as you keep moving onward and upward, trust that every little step brings you closer to your goals and dreams.

Ha en flott juleferie and de beste ønsker for det nye året!
(Have a great winter vacation and best wishes for the new year!)

T.

Correction needed Teango. Yes this is the first 6WC for PMollenburg, but my actual second run. Somewhere wayback perhaps in 2016 or 2017 I also took part under the almost unrecognizable pseudonym of PeterMollenburg. I did not complete the challenge and officially left after perhaps three weeks of pushing myself a little too hard. Still, I'll accept the praise and feel content that I gave this one a good go considering my life's upheavels of late.

The total hours for the top competitors were impressive as were the 2nd and 3rd place-getters for target hours. Anyone who has worked hard, no matter what the place has done a great job, so keep it up!

Reineke! My 90 something hours is a speck of dust against your 342 hours back in 2017. Wow. Working or not, that's not an easy to achieve final score by any means!

And finally, some nice positive words there Teango, well said.

[PeterMollenburg]

2021 on the horizon....

So as the new year looms, my head has done some circles of late. I relaxed a little since the end of the challenge and have been attempting to gather my thoughts for my assault on 2021. I was debating which languages I should study and for how long each day. What did I come up with?

I thought, I really want to get back to NL and FR. I watched some videos on learning multiple languages at once. I've experience with this many years back and some dabbling recently. Nothing has proven more successful for me in advancing in a language than simply focusing on one. However, I got stale with French and needed to do something else, I'd stuck to one for as long as I could stomach and tried to lunge at the French Dalf C2 finish line in desperation only to fall flat on my face before the line. So I tried myself at another sport for a while.

I must say that while I have an unsuccessful track record for learning multiple languages and (here's the key part) advancing/progressing significantly, I don't believe that rules the method out. I can and have studied French and Spanish both from beginner level before and stuck at it to reach A2/B1 when I was much younger and that is also not recommended (two beginner languages, both related languages), yet I did it successfully. That lasted a little under a year. I've gone through periods of learning 3 new-ish languages at once. Confusion has not been issue for me, but insufficient/inefficient progress has, since I never stuck it out for multiple years before changing languages or stopping. One thing learning French to B2 and beyond has taught me is to persevere no matter what, or you will fail. That was perhaps the most important lesson in all of this. So, learning multiple languages at once most definitely can be done, but only if you have the time and the commitment together with enough enthusiasm, which all allows for slow but certain progress and success.

So I thought, basing my routine on 3 hours desk study a day... Why not an hour of NO, an hour of FR an hour of NL. Each at different levels. I mean I'm relatively accomplished in French, know a thing or two in Dutch, and I'm a beginner in Norwegian. All those polyglots saying no don't do it (multiple new languages), learn one at a time, well they had an out and that was that they said one new language at time. Okay, so I don't need polyglot write-ups and their youtube videos to tell me what I should do, but I like to listen to experienced learners to provide myself with food for thought before making a decision. And then there's Professor Arguelles, right? Many languages every day, bite-sized chunks. He's not gifted, as aren't most polyglots. He was committed, he had the time, he had the enthusiasm. It can be done. I don't have as much time, I am committed, I have the drive.

So I saw that perhaps learning FR, NL, NO, DE, ES and maybe even AR all at once could be done, even if short on time. 45 min each, that's four languages in a 3 hour block. I read to my kids in FR and NL, I commute, I have recently found stolen moments at work. This IS actually possible, but do I want to do that? And as much as we all suffer from wanderlust, is it such a good thing to juggle them all? It allows for no letting off of steam and breaking the routine, because at 45 min a day if I can manage it, dropping a couple of days or dropping the hours down here and there, won't work.

I'd be marrying myself to ALL five or six languages for perhaps a decade. I mean, let's face it, 45 minutes a day giving you 273 hours/year and therefore allowing for a tiny bit of slacking off or missing one's targets, that's reaching 1000 hours at 4 years and that sounds like more than enough to achieve a good degree of proficiency. For some, that's more than enough. Then why are people around these parts (LLorg/HTLAL) studying one language for years and still struggling or at least not at C2? Well, I don't think we can rely on the FSI numbers (600hrs basic fluency NO/NL/FR/ES), and if you want to be 'more fluent' or 'fluenter' 1000 hours should be okay then. Nah, I don't know. Could someone on this forum really reach C1 (downgrade it a little) on 45 min/day over 4 years? Perhaps i'm wrong, perhaps I underestimate the importance of not missing days, because even with my 6000 hours of French, there have been missed days. Nah, can't be that significant. B2 yes, maybe not C1. I'll move on...

So, 6000 hours of French and I have not passed the C2. Yes I've done a decent (meaning 'thorough') job (I claim a lot of my extra hours went into pronunciation), but I'm not the most efficient learner. On 45 min a day for each of my 5 or 6 languages and allowing for some missed days, 10 years gives you roughly 2,500 hours (provided I could keep it up), would I feel I've progressed enough? I felt this was a recipe for too much stress. I could do it, as Arguelles did in a monk-like existence, but hey even he has changed his objectives with a family and other interests. So, yes I might achieve those study hours, but throwing all five or six languages in the mix means I must commit for the long haul around everything else known and unknown in future.

Even if I feel I can do that many hours and study all those languages, I'm still safer to break it down to lesser languages for the time being in case of unforeseen interruptions. It's easier to cut study hours with 3 languages as compared to 6 and still progress. Okay, so no new ones, and NO, FR and NL must remain, I've come too far, and they have my interest. I must resist the others for now.

So then, 3 hours a day desk study... So an hour each then? Sounds sound. Really. Honestly. However, not enough advancement in NO, the new kid on the block, for my liking. FR and NL 45 min each and 90 min NO/day? Nah, still too slow NO progress. Okay an hour every second day of NL/FR (alternating), and leaving 2 hours every day for NO. Nope, not satisfied.

Three hours/day for NO then? All my desk study time? Then the reading and conversations with my kids in NL and FR uphold those two languages together with some other activities here and there on my own. It's only one year (that's what I say), I can do this, right? I think so! But with this rule- I must reach 3 hours/day of NO via any means, but the preference is desk study time. But if that's not doable (desk study only), I can substitute with listening on commutes for example. Any extra stolen moments beyond my 3 hours of NO/day should be used to maintain FR and NL. Agreed I say!

So, that's it, 2021 - 1000 hours of Norwegian in one year. Hell, if Reineke can do 342 hrs in 6 weeks, this should be child's play, right? Uh, no. 342 hrs in 6 weeks is off the charts. I cannot (=will not) do 1000 hours in 18 weeks if I want to keep my marriage and job. 1000 hours/year is still one hell of an effort around a busy life, but that's going to be the plan. Hopefully in one year I can look back and see how far I've advanced in NO and consider returning to more of a balanced approach with the three languages. It's one year, it can be done.

[Gustav Aschenbach]

Then why are people around these parts (LLorg/HTLAL) studying one language for years and still struggling or at least not at C2? Well, I don't think we can rely on the FSI numbers (600hrs basic fluency NO/NL/FR/ES), and if you want to be 'more fluent' or 'fluenter' 1000 hours should be okay then. Nah, I don't know. Could someone on this forum really reach C1 (downgrade it a little) on 45 min/day over 4 years?

What exactly do you do during this 45 minutes? That would be really important to know. And I think the equation number of hours = a certain result is not a reasonable approach. Reaching a B1 or B2 level can be done in a year, but reaching a C1 or even a C2 level takes much, much longer. On a personal note, I have read and listened to tons of French in the last ten years (i.e. thousands of hours; intensive reading, extensive reading, intensive listening, extensive listening (the latter every single day for at the very least 30 minutes), 11,000 sentence cards, 80 hours of conversation...), but I don't think I am at a C2 level yet (fyi ten years ago when I started my intense "self-administered" French studies (as opposed to the usual rather inefficient classroom/textbook kind of studies) I already had a solid B2 level). Not sure if I could pass any C2 test, but when I read the CEFR descriptors, I know that my level at least in speaking (but also in listening, since I still struggle sometimes) just doesn't correspond to the required skills. I guess it just takes a lot of time and immersion. Maybe I could speed it up by immersing myself to the max for the next few months. I don't know, I've never taken it to the extreme. And then I want to study Dutch as well, so...

So, 6000 hours of French and I have not passed the C2. [...] And then there's Professor Arguelles, right? Many languages every day, bite-sized chunks. He's not gifted, as aren't most polyglots. He was committed, he had the time, he had the enthusiasm. It can be done. I don't have as much time, I am committed, I have the drive. [...] I could do it, as Arguelles did in a monk-like existence, but hey even he has changed his objectives with a family and other interests. So, yes I might achieve those study hours, but throwing all five or six languages in the mix means I must commit for the long haul around everything else known and unknown in future.

I don't think he has reached a C2 level in any of the languages he started studying during this time/he studied in this fashion.

[PeterMollenburg]

Then why are people around these parts (LLorg/HTLAL) studying one language for years and still struggling or at least not at C2? Well, I don't think we can rely on the FSI numbers (600hrs basic fluency NO/NL/FR/ES), and if you want to be 'more fluent' or 'fluenter' 1000 hours should be okay then. Nah, I don't know. Could someone on this forum really reach C1 (downgrade it a little) on 45 min/day over 4 years?

What exactly do you do during this 45 minutes? That would be really important to know.

Well in my ponderings I wasn't intending on going into details, as it wasn't my intention to go down this path necessarily (that would come if I was more serious about the multi-lingual study strategy), but I understand the importance of your question, as you're not going to reach C2 with ineffective strategies, so you question is absolutely relevant.

And I think the equation number of hours = a certain result is not a reasonable approach. Reaching a B1 or B2 level can be done in a year, but reaching a C1 or even a C2 level takes much, much longer.

And I agree, I was expressing some bewilderment and frustration there with the FSI hours that so many rely on. It's never made a lot of sense to me given I don't learn like they do at the FSI and nor do many of us, but perhaps if you equate their hours to B2 level, then it can perhaps be more reliable to apply to one's goals and expectations on time/effort to reach B2.

On a personal note, I have read and listened to tons of French in the last ten years (i.e. thousands of hours; intensive reading, extensive reading, intensive listening, extensive listening (the latter every single day for at the very least 30 minutes), 11,000 sentence cards, 80 hours of conversation...), but I don't think I am at a C2 level yet (fyi ten years ago when I started my intense "self-administered" French studies (as opposed to the usual rather inefficient classroom/textbook kind of studies) I already had a solid B2 level). Not sure if I could pass any C2 test, but when I read the CEFR descriptors, I know that my level at least in speaking (but also in listening, since I still struggle sometimes) just doesn't correspond to the required skills. I guess it just takes a lot of time and immersion. Maybe I could speed it up by immersing myself to the max for the next few months. I don't know, I've never taken it to the extreme. And then I want to study Dutch as well, so...

And this sounds similar to me. In fact your experience makes me feel a little better and not so ridiculously slow with my approach to French learning despite thousands of hours. But then how on earth do they come up with only hundreds of hours (FSI, Alliance Française etc). It makes no sense, unless they are absolutely targeted studying methods for the exams... AND they are not counting the extra study outside of the classroom.

So, 6000 hours of French and I have not passed the C2. [...] And then there's Professor Arguelles, right? Many languages every day, bite-sized chunks. He's not gifted, as aren't most polyglots. He was committed, he had the time, he had the enthusiasm. It can be done. I don't have as much time, I am committed, I have the drive. [...] I could do it, as Arguelles did in a monk-like existence, but hey even he has changed his objectives with a family and other interests. So, yes I might achieve those study hours, but throwing all five or six languages in the mix means I must commit for the long haul around everything else known and unknown in future.

I don't think he has reached a C2 level in any of the languages he started studying during this time/he studied in this fashion.

Perhaps not. That's a good point. Then what about the numerous members on this forum who claim C2 in several languages? I suspect there are only a few valid claims among them, and quite frankly I'm almost at a point of saying if you haven't actually passed an exam of the level you claim, then I am not necessarily going to believe you even if you actually are at that level. No proof, I have doubts. Period.

[Gustav Aschenbach]

And this sounds similar to me. In fact your experience makes me feel a little better and not so ridiculously slow with my approach to French learning despite thousands of hours. But then how on earth do they come up with only hundreds of hours (FSI, Alliance Française etc). It makes no sense, unless they are absolutely targeted studying methods for the exams... AND they are not counting the extra study outside of the classroom.

I don‘t know where these numbers come from nor do I know them. Is FSI comparable to the CEFR levels? My guess would be that it‘s hundreds of hours of classroom studies PLUS immersion in the country. Some people even say that you can‘t reach a C2 level if you‘re not living in the country where the language is spoken.

Look what I‘ve found, it say 1,000-1,200 hours until C2 (p. 4):

http://www.englishprofile.org/images/pd ... ToCEFR.pdf

But I would take these numbers with a grain of salt.

That's a good point. Then what about the numerous members on this forum who claim C2 in several languages? I suspect there are only a few valid claims among them, and quite frankly I'm almost at a point of saying if you haven't actually passed an exam of the level you claim, then I am not necessarily going to believe you even if you actually are at that level. No proof, I have doubts. Period.

Good question, I would rather say the opposite: you can pass a C2 level exam but your actual skills don‘t correspond fully to the descriptors of the level in question. Do you think all of those who claim to have a C2 level really fulfill the following requirements?

https://www.coe.int/en/web/common-europ ... nguage-use

Just a few quotes:

Can express him/herself spontaneously at length with a natural colloquial flow, avoiding or backtracking around any difficulty so smoothly that the interlocutor is hardly aware of it.

Can interact with ease and skill, picking up and using non-verbal and intonational cues apparently effortlessly. Can interweave his/her contribution into the joint discourse with fully natural turntaking, referencing, allusion making etc.

Professor Argüelles is a genius, but passing the so-called "airplane test" only means that he has attained a rather high passive (reading) level of the language. It doesn‘t mean that he can produce it to a high level. I have read many if not all of his posts in the old forum, and he said that he basically only reads textbooks and then literature (great books), but doesn't consume newspapers, TV, radio… Do you think you can reach a C2 level with only books, audio books and a few weeks immersion in the country? For example his Russian (that was in 2014, around 10 years into his Russian studies, I guess):



He's also reading aloud some French from around 1:25:00.

And then of course there might be some members on this forum who claim to have passed a C2 level exam without having actually done so.

[jeff_lindqvist]

Professor Argüelles is a genius, but passing the so-called "airplane test" only means that he has attained a rather high passive (reading) level of the language. It doesn‘t mean that he can produce it to a high level. I have read many if not all of his posts in the old forum, and he said that he basically only reads textbooks and then literature (great books), but doesn't consume newspapers, TV, radio… Do you think you can reach a C2 level with only books, audio books and a few weeks immersion in the country? For example his Russian (that was in 2014, around 10 years into his Russian studies, I guess)

A month-long stay in St Petersburg is mentioned in these HTLAL threads:
Assimil (18 January, 2005)
Slavic Language Family Learning Sequence (15 May, 2005)

Possibly the first (?) airplane quote:

"With Russian, I went through most of Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Turgenev, and Checkov this way, as well as some Oblomov and Gogol. I then passed the "airplane test," as I call it, taking a novel that I had not read in translation before with me as my sole companion on an intercontinental flight, and reading it with interest, enjoyment, and understanding the whole time. "

(From Russian - advancing to reading literature, 23 March, 2005)

About transfer, reading fluency, doing business, airplane test:
Alexander Arguelles (page 2, 5 April, 2005)

All these posts are from 2005, and it seems that he learned his Russian well before that.

[Gustav Aschenbach]

All these posts are from 2005, and it seems that he learned his Russian well before that.

Yes, I vaguely remember... Then he had started Russian maybe in the late 90s and at the time of the video above he was around 15 years into his Russian studies.

PS: Thanks for the links! Nice throwback...

[Xenops]

So, 6000 hours of French and I have not passed the C2. [...] And then there's Professor Arguelles, right? Many languages every day, bite-sized chunks. He's not gifted, as aren't most polyglots. He was committed, he had the time, he had the enthusiasm. It can be done. I don't have as much time, I am committed, I have the drive. [...] I could do it, as Arguelles did in a monk-like existence, but hey even he has changed his objectives with a family and other interests. So, yes I might achieve those study hours, but throwing all five or six languages in the mix means I must commit for the long haul around everything else known and unknown in future.

I don't think he has reached a C2 level in any of the languages he started studying during this time/he studied in this fashion.

I guess I read this, PM and Gustav, and I wonder--what's the motivation to juggle so many at once? In Arguelles' case, and in the case of many members of this forum, the very learning process of the language itself is a very pleasant way to spend time. If it's something they look forward to, then it is easy to make it a habit, and before they realize it, they can actually do a lot in the target language. And then there is another group, where people learn a language for a specific need--move to another country, get a promotion, speak with their in-laws, etc.

So as a rhetorical question, what's your motivation to study more than two languages at once? It doesn't sound like it's for a specific reason in particular. Do you enjoy studying that many languages at once? If so, why the pressure to "commit for the long haul"? If a hobby isn't fun, why continue it? Why put so much pressure on a decision regarding a hobby, when like you said, life is unpredictable?

For myself, I realized that if I start learning a language for fun, the world will not end if I lose interest. You don't have to "marry" a language for life.

[rdearman]

For myself, I realized that if I start learning a language for fun, the world will not end if I lose interest. You don't have to "marry" a language for life.

Are you suggesting Peter live in sin with Norwegian !!!