Mack's log: Mandarin, damn the torpedoes!

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Dr Mack Rettosy
Orange Belt
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:53 pm
Location: USA, The Great Lakes
Languages: English (N), Mandarin
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16180
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Study plan update - starting to output with iTalki tutor sessions

Postby Dr Mack Rettosy » Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:17 pm

I really wanted to take my time with this update. My goal is to capture the rich subjective experience of someone beginning to output an L2. I also find myself in the unique situation of being a “delayed output” learner. As of today, I have 1800 hours of Mandarin under my belt, with A LOT of natural exposure to the language through listening and reading native materials. I estimate my listening and reading skills to be near HSK6 (on the HSK 3.0 scale, or B2 on the CEFRL scale). Grain of salt, this has not been verified by formal testing. Perhaps this is not as interesting as a delayed output learner who has reached C1-C2 input, but still, I hope it to be a useful case study.

First a comment on my listening. The big confidence booster is that my listening, on the whole, is not a barrier for conversations. There have been a couple tutors who were harder to understand due to accents, speaking speed, or audio quality. Times where I miss a word or sentence, I can easily ask: 这个东西是什么意思?你会说一遍?什么什么的意思是什么? And if I’m completely lost, I can always throw in the towel: 不好意思,没关系,罢了罢了。Two caveats that threaten to burst my bubble if I spend too much time thinking about: 1) I’m talking to paid tutors who know how to talk to language learners. 2) These are introductory conversations where we are getting to know each other, i.e. the conversational topics are fairly simple and predictable. I lose comprehension when the conversation narrows into niche topics. Certainly, there is a long way to go with listening, but I’m at least advanced enough to understand the person I’m talking to and can therefore focus on improving my speaking.

As an aside, I find listening to someone in a conversation to be very different than listening to media. When listening to podcasts I can space out without consequence and rewind to relisten. But in a conversation, there is no time to ask myself “did I understand that?”. And there is much more on the line. By way of example, I was talking to a person last night who had a loose train of thought. At some point I became aware they had started discussing their marital problems (unsolicited by me), and realizing this, my listening attention turned on overdrive so I could respond accordingly 哎呀糟糕。对不起老师。我很抱歉。这个是很难受的故事。The brain is desperate to understand what people are saying. So much so that it often fills in gaps of incomprehension with assumptions. It often occurs to me hours after a session that I didn’t fully understand something my tutor said, and that my particular response may have seemed somewhat odd or out of place.

One last preface before I get to the meat. My goals for the sessions are to 1) communicate and 2) have fun. I’m not necessarily worried about forming full sentences, grammar, or correct pronunciation.. all that will come with time. During one session I had forgotten the word for monkey, so I started hooting and scratching my armpits. My tutor knew what I was going for (猴子). Did I communicate? Yes. Did I have fun? Also yes. And now I will never forget the word for monkey.

So then, what has speaking been like?

Lots of single words, broken sentences, and a good deal of “uhhmmmss”, gesturing, and nodding or shaking the head. I often rely on my conversation partner to complete my sentence, and then give them a 对对对 when I hear the right thing. Not the most effective but it gets the job done. I use my phone’s iTalki app and have my computer set to my side with google translate to help with words that I forget on the spot. The actual act of speaking is pretty difficult and I am shocked at how bad the words coming out of my mouth sound. My口音 (pronunciation) is truly awful. And I’m not even talking about how awful my声调 (tones) are. It’s strange because I know I sound bad. I know what the words should sound like, and they just don’t come out the way I think they’re going to. The tutors are polite, 你的中文不错!非常好!At which I insist哪里哪里,别客气。

It is amazing how different the experience of talking can be with different people. I’ve had some really enjoyable conversations and have at least 3-4 people that I plan on having reoccurring sessions with. Other conversations were downright 无聊。It’s best to just throw yourself into meeting as many people as you can and seeing what sticks.

It also occurred to me how much actual speaking practice I could do without having to be in a paid conversation. I’m starting to feel more comfortable about the idea of striking up conversations with my Chinese coworkers. I’ll give it some more time lol. But also the realization that there are so many supporting activities for speaking: Practicing sentences that would be useful to have in beginner conversations. Shadowing to improve cadence and pronunciation. Talking to myself. Etc. Would love to hear other ideas for solitary activities to improve speaking, if anyone has please share!

I am already looking forward to seeing what effect speaking will have on other areas like listening, reading, and writing. Speaking of, I’m starting to get writing practice in the form of a tutor diary (typed into a word document, at this point I am unable to actually write any 汉子 from memory). After each tutor session I spend 5 minutes describing my tutor and my impressions. What were they like? What did I learn about them? What did I like or dislike about the session? What new words did I learn? What new concepts did I learn that excite me? Is there anything I should do to prepare for next session? All this in Mandarin. Right now it’s a short paragraph but hoping this morphs into something substantial over time. It is also interesting to note that after a tutor session, the act of writing feels like a relief. Writing comes more natural and I can take my time. I also have access to a larger vocabulary and can form more expressive and complex sentences.

Learning a language has been truly humbling. I’m much more empathetic to those who use English as a second language and overall just feel like a better more accepting person. Regarding my own use of Mandarin, it is hard to express how far from “fluent” I feel.. reading about others who have gotten “fluent” in Mandarin or Japanese in less than two years, I genuinely cannot fathom how they achieved this. Kudos to those folks, but this is going to be a marathon for me.

That’s all for now, hope you enjoyed the update!
Last edited by Dr Mack Rettosy on Thu Feb 23, 2023 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
12 x
Mandarin goals:
Read: 2146000 / 10000000 /10,000,000 汉字
Study: 2006 / 5000 / 5000 hours

User avatar
Dr Mack Rettosy
Orange Belt
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:53 pm
Location: USA, The Great Lakes
Languages: English (N), Mandarin
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16180
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Re: Mack's log: Mandarin, damn the torpedoes!

Postby Dr Mack Rettosy » Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:21 pm

狗改不了吃屎

Figurative translation: bad habits are hard to change.

Literal translation: dogs can’t stop themselves from eating sh**.

I love this language, it is so expressive.

Finishing up a book called 《我不是潘金莲》by 冯小刚. It’s challenging but rewarding and full of great 成语. I’m starting to really appreciate how 成语 are used, even if I have to look most up. The story follows a woman navigating the legal system following a divorce with her husband. She is a major pain to a ton of rent-seeking bureaucratic men. The story is both hilarious and a smart political satire. Looking forward to watching the award-winning movie adaption ( English title “I Am Not Madame Bovary”)!
5 x
Mandarin goals:
Read: 2146000 / 10000000 /10,000,000 汉字
Study: 2006 / 5000 / 5000 hours

User avatar
Dr Mack Rettosy
Orange Belt
Posts: 134
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:53 pm
Location: USA, The Great Lakes
Languages: English (N), Mandarin
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16180
x 729

Study plan update - Grammar with AllSet Learning textbooks

Postby Dr Mack Rettosy » Wed Mar 29, 2023 3:21 pm

AllSet Learning grammar books have arrived! This is from the same company that runs the Chinese Grammar Wiki, founded by John Pasden (the creator of Mandarin Companion series).

I’ve been wanting to study grammar for awhile now. While vocabulary is still the biggest challenge, grammar can be a barrier, especially in more complex native materials.

I found the Grammar Wiki website hard to navigate and not conducive to “working straight through” so I pulled the trigger and bought the textbooks. I’ve been spending about 10-15min/day over breakfast. So far the A1-A2 is all solidly intuitive for me, but it’s been helpful to have it explicitly laid out. Flipping ahead, the B1-B2 sections are going to address grammar structures outside my comfort zone.

The other encouraging tidbit is that my reading comprehension is good enough to read these textbooks ON PAPER. There are a lot of examples for every grammar point, typically 5-10 sentences, with pinyin and translation below. But I’m finding I can read most everything and focus on the grammar points. Pinyin and translations are provided so it’s really easy to look up words in Pleco when needed. It is amazing to not need a screen for this, my eyes greatly appreciate the break. :geek:


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5 x
Mandarin goals:
Read: 2146000 / 10000000 /10,000,000 汉字
Study: 2006 / 5000 / 5000 hours


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