Back to the roots and water them with coffee

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Cavesa
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:12 pm

tiia wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Do you know from what region your tutor comes from? There are probably a few local variants. I remember my mother being a bit picky when it came to pronouncing this word, because my parent's (standard?) German way did not match the local variant.


I have no clue! But I got the word back for improvement for the millionth time :-D I am looking up the various versions on Forvo. No clue what to say differently.

Italian:I get almost nothing to redo, I fixed one mistake (a recurrent one, I wasn't really paying attention to making questions sound like questions) and it is ok now. Spanish is the opposite. I get so much stuff back and I have no clue what I am doing wrong. I somehow fail to identify it. So much for the "tutor will fix your problems" theory. You still need to work it out sometimes. :-D I have no doubts she is right to correct me, I just cannot identify the problem. In one example (actually one she found correct. she really uses the correcting tools weirdly), she left a message to focus on a few letters.

Ok. I found something very good on youtube, which really seems to be of superior quality to the usual videos (I don't like learning from youtube much. the jewels are hard to find in the mud). The man really knows what he's talking about and seems to explain it well, without dumbing stuff down at the expense of quality. There were two "d" sounds, I hadn't known! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce6uaXukfYg
https://www.youtube.com/c/BlogdeLengua/
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coldrainwater
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby coldrainwater » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:30 pm

Cavesa wrote:This is the vocab course on Memrise that I'm doing: https://app.memrise.com/course/2078609/ ... b1-german/ The author's website is: thomasprofesoraleman.com ...The deck includes 4121 words (a few of them are phrases) which is awesome...
From that link, I bounced over to a different German vocabulary deck. Looks like that list was created by Carlykal. If that is the same Carly as on our forum here, great job. I completed one of the lessons on idioms from that list and it was very useful for me, so I will likely incorporate this periodically into my current reading/listening routine. It will be nice to have some phrases that I can confidently output. And practice with orthography...yes that too for sure.
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Cavesa
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:57 pm

coldrainwater wrote:
Cavesa wrote:This is the vocab course on Memrise that I'm doing: https://app.memrise.com/course/2078609/ ... b1-german/ The author's website is: thomasprofesoraleman.com ...The deck includes 4121 words (a few of them are phrases) which is awesome...
From that link, I bounced over to a different German vocabulary deck. Looks like that list was created by Carlykal. If that is the same Carly as on our forum here, great job. I completed one of the lessons on idioms from that list and it was very useful for me, so I will likely incorporate this periodically into my current reading/listening routine. It will be nice to have some phrases that I can confidently output. And practice with orthography...yes that too for sure.


Sounds good, but my German needs to grow up first for that. We should definitely ask our CarlyD whether they are the author!

Otherwise: Guys, I really have a bad luck. Not only I do not know anyone else, who ever received an empty package from Amazon. But just today, I've got a message they are sending me only a part of what I've bought, because the rest is not in stock and who knows when it gets back. That would be fine. But no, they are not sending me the Assimil. Nor they're sending me my new Kindle. Nope. They're sending me the protective case for the kindle that I haven't got yet. :-D :-D :-D

Yeah, I could also complain about a hard day at work, one of the too full ones with lots of negative experiences and a few hard choices. But complaining about my bad luck with Amazon is waaaaay more fun! :-D

Back to the initial topic: Memrising is hard. It is annoying. But it is extremely good for me and my language skills. I need to keep going. But SRS is annoying. Ok, now that I've complained, I can get back to it, I haven't done my half an hour yet.
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tiia
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby tiia » Thu Oct 29, 2020 7:29 pm

Cavesa wrote:I have no clue! But I got the word back for improvement for the millionth time :-D I am looking up the various versions on Forvo. No clue what to say differently.


I'd suspect it being either the r or the ch or their combination. Anyway, what's now following is more or less a wild guess. Maybe you'll find some hint in there, what could be the problem.


I took a look at the Forvoo examples (https://de.forvo.com/word/kirche/#de). The ch is pretty consistent among the samples, except for the Austrian speaker (she's usind the ch as in Bach noch the one as in ich). However, from my experience I know lot's of foreigners have some problems with this sound and start to say some kind of sch instead of the soft ch. They may not be able to distiguish the sounds that well in the beginning. I don't think this could be a general problem in your case, because then you would get that feedback much more often, but maybe the rch combination could throw someone off.

The r sound has more variation in those samples. The sample from Wellenreiter has a very clear r. The other ones have a "more typical" German r that is actally hard to hear at all. (But it's there!) it's more like another ugly vowel behind the i. (Don't know how to decribe it the best way, you probably get what I mean.) In some dialect this r sound may become more towards an a/ä/e.
Well an then there's the Franconian people with their trilled r. I don't know how they pronounce the word, but if they use their kind of r it would differ from the rest quite clearly.

When they say the names of the churches at the end of the search results page (https://de.forvo.com/search/kirche/) you get some more nice samples. Most of them have the more standard r and I think all of them had the normal ch sound.
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CarlyD
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby CarlyD » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:08 pm

Cavesa wrote:
coldrainwater wrote:
Cavesa wrote:This is the vocab course on Memrise that I'm doing: https://app.memrise.com/course/2078609/ ... b1-german/ The author's website is: thomasprofesoraleman.com ...The deck includes 4121 words (a few of them are phrases) which is awesome...
From that link, I bounced over to a different German vocabulary deck. Looks like that list was created by Carlykal. If that is the same Carly as on our forum here, great job. I completed one of the lessons on idioms from that list and it was very useful for me, so I will likely incorporate this periodically into my current reading/listening routine. It will be nice to have some phrases that I can confidently output. And practice with orthography...yes that too for sure.


Sounds good, but my German needs to grow up first for that. We should definitely ask our CarlyD whether they are the author!



Absolutely not me. Although it did look like a nice list of words.
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Cavesa
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:50 pm

Ouch, I missed a day and I have no force. I need to get back on track from tomorrow on. 30 minutes a day are doable!!!
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Cavesa
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3949
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:29 pm

So, not only did this week not go well, with me studying now on Sunday, trying to do at least a part of my goals and do better next week.

I've been transcribing coursebook dialogues to Anki, turning them into cloze deletion cards. But I mistook the "close" button for the "save" button. Repeatedly, without realising it. So, I've just lost half an hour of work. The cards are not saved. :-(

But Speechling is funny. I've recently gotten useful phrases like "Du hast keinen Beweis." You have no proof. Or "Erzähl mir dein Geheimnis" :-D
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Cavesa
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:35 pm

I know, I know. I gave up temporarily. But I am back at the project, starting with this Week.

My life is changing right now. I've had quite a lot of nightshifts or 24 shifts lately. That means working the normal week, and two of the nights or weekend days per week (with rest on the following work day. but I actually didn't take my recovery for a few saturdays, a dumb decision). It's been busy and very discouraging lately. It has damaged my sleep, mood, energy, everything. This all ends in a week and the nightshifts have just ended! I'm moving away!

I am stressed, I haven't got any job security and nothing. But the good news: my paperwork at the ministry hasn't been lost! Now I just need to be very patient. But I'll have some recovery time, a month of unemployment won't hurt me at all. I've got some savings, and I plan to use my time well, to find a job or at least an internship to start with, to study, to sleep and eat well. I actually haven't had holidays for a long time, just some prolonged weekends during the summer.

What it means for my languages: I am back in the German group, I wholeheartedy apologize to my co learners! And I can move on with the rest too.

I need to chop my German goals into even smaller parts, to be able to check them easily. And the 30 minutes are the plan from tomorrow on. The focus on a limited amount of resources is a very good thing for me. Posting it tomorrow (or rather later today, after I'll have slept)
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Montmorency
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Back-burner: Spanish (intermediate) Norwegian (bit more than beginner) Danish (beginner).

Have studied: Latin, French, Italian, Dutch; OT Hebrew (briefly) NT Greek (briefly).
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1429
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Montmorency » Tue Nov 24, 2020 7:19 pm

Cavesa wrote:
Speechling: The word "Kirche" haunts me. I got it back for like eighth time. I rarely need to correct something more than once. It is also interesting to see the differences between the tutors.

The German one: The one I know the best. Usually provides extremely clear feedback, which is great. The comments are not in full sentences, more like efficient fragments "langes e" etc. My only complaint: Her pronunciation is different from the model pronunciation of the original audio. A few times, I think I got corrected because I followed the original audio and there may be a regional difference. But, I am glad to be corrected and follow that. I improve, some things get more automatic, which is the point. But I really hate the word "Kirche", not sure I'll ever get it right! :-D


Ahoj Cavesa, :-)

I offer the following, not as of any practical help whatsoever, but as perhaps consolation; from my favourite English light author, J.K.Jerome:

Putting aside the sufferings of the early martyrs, few men, I suppose, have gone through more than I myself went through in trying to I attain the correct pronunciation of the German word for church—“Kirche.” Long before I had done with it I had determined never to go to church in Germany, rather than be bothered with it.

“No, no,” my teacher would explain—he was a painstaking gentleman; “you say it as if it were spelt K-i-r-c-h-k-e. There is no k. It is—.” And he would illustrate to me again, for the twentieth time that morning, how it should be pronounced; the sad thing being that I could never for the life of me detect any difference between the way he said it and the way I said it. So he would try a new method.

“You say it from your throat,” he would explain. He was quite right; I did. “I want you to say it from down here,” and with a fat forefinger he would indicate the region from where I was to start. After painful efforts, resulting in sounds suggestive of anything rather than a place of worship, I would excuse myself.

“I really fear it is impossible,” I would say. “You see, for years I have always talked with my mouth, as it were; I never knew a man could talk with his stomach. I doubt if it is not too late now for me to learn.”

By spending hours in dark corners, and practising in silent streets, to the terror of chance passers-by, I came at last to pronounce this word correctly. My teacher was delighted with me, and until I came to Germany I was pleased with myself. In Germany I found that nobody understood what I meant by it. I never got near a church with it. I had to drop the correct pronunciation, and painstakingly go back to my first wrong pronunciation. Then they would brighten up, and tell me it was round the corner, or down the next street, as the case might be.

I also think pronunciation of a foreign tongue could be better taught than by demanding from the pupil those internal acrobatic feats that are generally impossible and always useless. This is the sort of instruction one receives:

“Press your tonsils against the underside of your larynx. Then with the convex part of the septum curved upwards so as almost—but not quite—to touch the uvula, try with the tip of your tongue to reach your thyroid. Take a deep breath, and compress your glottis. Now, without opening your lips, say ‘Garoo.’”

And when you have done it they are not satisfied.



From the same book, but on a different theme, which you may or may not find interesting (this was written around the turn of the 19th/20th century):

At Dresden they advised us not to talk German in Prague. For years racial animosity between the German minority and the Czech majority has raged throughout Bohemia, and to be mistaken for a German in certain streets of Prague is inconvenient to a man whose staying powers in a race are not what once they were. However, we did talk German in certain streets in Prague; it was a case of talking German or nothing. The Czech dialect is said to be of great antiquity and of highly scientific cultivation. Its alphabet contains forty-two letters, suggestive to a stranger of Chinese. It is not a language to be picked up in a hurry. We decided that on the whole there would be less risk to our constitution in keeping to German, and as a matter of fact no harm came to us. The explanation I can only surmise. The Praguer is an exceedingly acute person; some subtle falsity of accent, some slight grammatical inaccuracy, may have crept into our German, revealing to him the fact that, in spite of all appearances to the contrary, we were no true-born Deutscher. I do not assert this; I put it forward as a possibility.
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Cavesa
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3949
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Languages: Czech (N), English (C1), French (C2), Spanish (intermediate), German (somewhere on the path), Italian (passive advanced, active basic)
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:58 am

Thank you, Montmorency, this made me laugh :-D
And I'll use all the good advice by Tiia soon, and tackle the word again!

For now, I am keeping the group pace this week.

I will add some "Free form" Speechlinging, focusing on a very nice, small, and heavy book "Kompakt wissen: Anatomie,Physiologie,Erkrankungen", there is no better way to learn the terminology of the medicine basics. And it will be a fun challenge to pronounce well stuff like "Basalzellschicht" or "Erregungsleitungssystems"

And I've picked my first tv series, to be started after DaF kompakt: The Supernatural. It is loooong (that's a huuuge advantage), fantasy, perhaps not top quality, but still looks fun and interesting. Some reviews say it is a fantasy soap opera, sounds great for an intermediate learner.

I've watched some series in French recently (Canal+ subscription. really, I would love to give up any piracy, but only if I could just watch everything without geoblocking within the EU, not sure whether this will work after I move out :-( ). Actually, i have a few SCs going, no? Here are my opinions:

Le Bureau des Legendes: awesome! I binge watched. And I felt like starting Arabic, Farsi, Turkish, Kurdi, and every other language appearing. There were a few bits of Hebrew, which is my next project. The series is excellent, adventurous, surprising at times, the character relatable, the theme of a secret service (and not in a James Bond fashion) is very intriguing and fascinating. I loved it. I think an intermediate learner might find it mostly accessible, sometimes challenging. An advanced learner's brain will definitely soak some high quality input from this. 2500 minutes total.

La Flamme: This is a parody of the reality shows with people finding "love". It is hilarious, and doesn't hesitate to make fun of stuff like racism, ignorance, stupidity, intolerance, handicap acceptation in the society, greed, and so on. And it has a unique happy end! Easier than BdL, I'd say, and excellent for colloquial stuff. 9x30 min, so 270min

Seraphim: a Canadian court metrage series, bilingual, approximately 50:50, not bad. Canal+ doesn't have the last episode!!! That was really annoying, I don't know how it ends. I don't recommend it. It is not bad, but it is nothing you haven't seen or read before.

I've also watched two dubbings, because the original prouction is a bit limited in some genres, but excellent in quality. Ghosted (16x20 min), that was fun (a partilly parodic take on all the Xfiles, Fringe, and similar series), too bad it didn't get renewed, so the viewers didn't get most answers. Taboo (8x50 min) was fun. I like this kind of mysteries in a historical setting. But again, mostly nothing you haven't seen or read yet, if you're a bit familiar with the genre, but not in the "hey, it's meant to remind you of this or that classic" way. Both are very good options for a learner interested in dubbings, so an intermediate or higher intermediate, and/or trying to just consume more stuff in non English. Btw What We do in the Shadows is unwatchable for me in dubbing.

Right now, I am amusing myself with wonderful Kaboul Kitchen, and trying le Baron Noir (mixed feelings about this one)

And yes, I should watch in other languages.
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