Back to the roots and water them with coffee

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Cavesa
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:31 am

Just adding a number: I am now at 954 words in Speakly. I'd say the learning curve is getting less steep now grammarwise. It is a tool on practicing primarily vocab, but it does demand quite a lot of grammar, which is why I struggled before a lot. Now it is ok and I actually think a lot of the "intermediate" vocabulary is easier than a lot of the "beginner" vocabulary.

I am using the DaF kompakt course on Memrise. I will make it easier by using ignore on the food vocab that I keep forgetting and don't really care about (I highly doubt the B2 exam will make me talk about Zauberfilet a lot). I looked at another course, the official B1 wortlist, and it is shorter than the DaF kompakt one, so I'll just stick to this. But the B1-B2 will be a challenge.
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Cavesa
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:27 pm

Back after a longer break. I missed you guys a lot, I hope all of you are doing well, and I will catch up with your logs! But my brain just needed something different out of work lately. I was a bit more escaping the reality with my hobbies, which is very healthy to some extent. But it is time to come back.

Another year gone. I have my temporary job. I speak French all the time, and I use Italian almost every work day. I don't plan to learn Arabic (in the forseeable future at least, and I understand three words). And I even use Czech very occassionally, with some of the Bosniacs that aren't good at French. Honestly, I've used Czech as many times as English.

My French is worsening imho, because I speak almost exclusively with non natives, most of which are not too educated, so I both hear non natives, and also need to dumb my speaking down. Due to the situation, I don't get to speak to many people outside of work. Vast majority of French natives doesn't give a damn about my accent. It is light enough to not matter, and I am not interesting enough (fortunately! that's the sign of a good integration imho) to make people ask. However, it is different here, in the immigrant neighbourhood I work in. The positive side is being more accepted than by the rather xenophobic and haughty Belgians (just a precision: I am not saying 100% of them are like that, but it is much more common than in France, and in a wider range of situations). But the negative is people asking about my origin very often, and about my accent. They assume I don't take it negatively, but every question on my accent, usually from people speking French much worse than me (that is the funny part!), is like a huge "you suck" slap. I have no way of knowing whether I just feel it or I am really speaking worse than a year ago. I am still very much beyond C2, so no help from any official institution possible :-D

Curiously, I deal quite well with the cultural differences with the people with middle eastern background for a european (especially for a czech), if I may say so. I have the huge advantage that two people from our small team know both the Arabic language (some dialect, and they have a lot of experience with making themselves understand other) and culture (due to their background). And I've also already met a lot of people on the whole scale from mostly secular muslims (basically just another version of me, a not too active catholic) to the rather traditional ones, which present communication challenges (such as a man automatically answering my questions to the woman including "how do you feel" and "does this hurt?") and cultural ones ("no, I cannot do this or that for my health, my husband wouldn't agree"). So, I think I do my job well for these patients, even though my boss says some are still getting used to my "germanic strictness" :-D and that people from the middle east sometimes struggle with "no", which I mostly use to refuse stuff that is not part of my job or totally not indicated. I could write much more, but that would be too long for the purpose of the log.

But I struggle a bit worse than expected with some cultural aspects of the slavic nations. I make a point of sticking to my job and not diving deep into the balcans. So, I cannot really know what languages they speak, even if I understand a part of what they say to each other or use Czech, if needed. A person who emigrated ten years ago sees the bosnian-croatian-serbian-macedonian language distinctions differently from a person, who had left fourty years ago. My heart cries, when they mention having been child soldiers, having gone through genocides, and so on. I am amused, when it is actually the woman, who does all the talking for the couple, because she finds it her job to take care of her tough looking husband. And I am confused, when some point out my accent and expect me to express some sort of "slav pride". I don't have it and not just because of my personal stances and my self-identification as a European. I really find the Czechs mostly like Germans or Belgians, in good or bad.

That's also not the whole extent of our neighbourhood. We have a Turkish speaking community, Albanians, Kurds, and many others. Curiously, Italian is the most useful with those Moroccans, who don't speak French too well. We do the best we can with the means we have. Fortunately, other members of the team speak Arabic, Turkish, we all speak some English, and so on. Not sure anyone speaks Flemish/Dutch, the one or two documents from the other part of Belgium were pretty challenging for us :-D :-D :-D

When it comes to our small team, I am lucky to cooperate with these people, to learn from them, and to face the daily challenges with them. We had a very pleasant christmas dinner before the end of the year. It was interesting, no two people at the table had been born in the same country, yet we all have a lot in common. I was at awe to hear the doctors know so much about my country and its history! So, it was a small reminder to keep expanding my general knowledge too, so that people from more countries can feel comfortable and proud around me too. I know it looks like a very small thing, but it is a luxury people from the most privileged and famous countries don't even realize. And just like I feel proud, when people know our classical music composers, or technical companies and inventions, I see others lighten up, when I know at least something that doesn't fall in the usual stereotypes.

I may start a new log for my German learning project. I am trying to get a job in the Switzerland and need the German exam asap. I've payed already, I'll take it in February. I really slowed everything down, as I was adapting to a new job, which I really hope to leave asap. General medicine is an extremely useful experience but the field is horrible for someone like me. Anything medically interesting to me gets sent elsewhere, to the specialists people actually respect, and I am left with tons of boring stuff, paperwork, social issues, etc. But I got a good boss, money, and some better activity than the scientific internship that went badly due to covid totally destroying any structure.
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby IronMike » Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:43 pm

Cavesa wrote:Back after a longer break. I missed you guys a lot, I hope all of you are doing well, and I will catch up with your logs! But my brain just needed something different out of work lately. I was a bit more escaping the reality with my hobbies, which is very healthy to some extent. But it is time to come back.

Welcome back!
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Cavesa
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:34 pm

Thank you all for the warm welcome back!

This log stays for non-German and general stuff. German will get its own now.

I really think my French is worsening. Still well within C2, but it is really not the same, at the very best I'm stagnating. I got to use my passive Spanish very efficiently this week (active is really suffering from neglect and active Italian), the patient really struggled to explain stuff in French.

Friends and I were having some wine this weekend. And an older Belgian came to ask whether we were Flemish :-D It was so nice that he didn't try anything slavic (probably because he doesn't know how those languages sound), but still funny. How comes a Belgian has no clue what the other offical language of his country sounds like?

Need to send an email today, I cannot go to sleep before. I will manage! Did some German but need to do much more, one month till my exam!!!
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Cavesa
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:00 am

Some non-German stuff.

If I were to stay in Belgium, I would definitely need to learn Arabic. (which I hope to avoid! I really dislike this discrimination filled and chaotic country, I am extremely disappointed, and definitely don't want to do general medicine for longer than necessary, it is not worth it for me at all. It is boring, not intellectually stimulating, it is not about the medical problems I am passionate about, everything interesting gets sent elsewhere, and it is often much more social than really medical. And people don't respect GPs much, it's horrible. I get even shouted at for doing my job well, when the patient lacks understanding of something very basic and refuses to understand explanations).

Yes, a medical secretary can translate, the boss is bilingual too and takes a considerable part of the arabophones. But I am fed up with translations, as this situation prevents me from doing my job as well as I'd like to. It's not just that she gets a little bit too independent, with them communicating for a minute (sometimes even the patient turns his back to me) and me getting just a short sentence result, and the same happening in the other direction. A few days a go, she gave the direct opposite of my instructions, no matter that in good faith. I found out only because the instruction contained someone's proper name. It was a very unpleasant situation.

We have excellent relations in workplace, but this was the first small confict. And it is logical. She is not trained to be a medical translator (as that would include not just language, but probably also how to really be just the channel between the patient and doctor), and it is objectively hard to keep such a situation normal, with the roles clearly defined.

Flemish/Dutch is not at all necessary in Wallonie, Arabic or Turkish could be. Some might find it really sad, I find it pragmatic in medicine.

There are also situations, in which I cannot tell, whether the patient is limited by his French skills, or disrespectful on purpose. Some use "tu" instead of "vous" and it really isn't clear that they just don't know any better. I use "vous" even with very young patients and treat them with respect they deserve like everyone. I don't mind smaller kids not knowing their tu/vous yet. But an adult listening to "vous" and using "tu" and in general having the supermarket attitude, that doesn't look like a language problem to me.

Another thing is the overuse of "savoir". Instead of asking, whether I would do something, whether I would be willing to do it, they ask about my ability. It could be interpreted as just lack of knowledge of modal verbs, but the overall behaviour is like "either the doctor does what I ask, or she is an idiot". It is extremely humiliating, coming from people without any education (including the one of proper behaviour towards others). It is also an attempt to manipulate me in some cases, a sort of "prove to me that you are a good doctor by doing what I want". But thanks to not only my upbringing but also experience from work as a psychiatrist, I am resistant. :-D

So, I can tolerate quite a lot. But I have corrected people to "vous" a few times. And I am even responding like "je sais faire, mais ce n'est pas indiqué dans votre cas/il n'y a aucune raison médicale/c'est illégal"

Not sure whether speaking Arabic would get me more respect or less. My boss knows the mentality well, handles most things excellently, but says that sometimes the language even allows them to be more direct and demanding, and that they are culturally not used to hearing "no". And they are still getting used to my "germanic strictness". So, while I try to adapt to the mentality to the needed extent, I also think the patients should adapt to the mentality of the country and continent they are living in now. If I spoke Arabic, I think it would go smoother.

There are many languages used in that neighbourhood, I cannot learn them all of course. However, Arabic is the most commonly spoken language of the very weak French speakers (and only a few of them speak Italian, which sometimes saves the situation nevertheless). Turkish would be the second one. The other languages either have better French speakers, or we have a different common alternative (most commonly Italian, but from time to time English or even Czech), or the community is not that big. Also, some of the people are billingual in something+Arabic (for example Kurds tend to be trillingual in Kurdish+Arabic or Kurdish+Turkish +weak French).

Which dialect would be useful: There are people from various countries. Syrians and Iraqis, refugees building a new life. Most of them people like you and me, just in an unfortunate situation. Egyptians or Palestinians, the same. Lots and lots of Moroccans, which are mostly economic refugees, half of which are normal working people (which is the good part of economic migration, getting actually paid enough for your job and contributing to the new country) , half of which is really just trying to squeeze the system (and those tend to demand the most from the doctor too and feel very entitled. And it is surprising how much is Belgium giving to these people, in their attempts to cover the past collonial crimes, and still rampant discrimination and racism, with money).

If I were to start Arabic, I wouldn't probably bother more than necessary with MSA and I'd go for either the Syriac or Iraqi dialect. The people are numerous, have gone through war, try hard to integrate. From what I see every day, every bit of help is welcome and well spent.
.........
I also used Italian with a native this week, doing translation for an appartment visit over phone. It went really well, especially given how little attention my Italian gets these days. I was mostly doing fine, a minor trouble at only one or two points. And it was more comfortable for me than English, at the moment. I really find that it is more comfortable for me to speak Italian to an Italian using heavily accented English, or Spanish to a Spaniard using heavily accented German.

Italian is the next one on the list after German, but definitely with no rush comparable to this!
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lingohot
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby lingohot » Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:21 am

Cavesa wrote:Another thing is the overuse of "savoir". Instead of asking, whether I would do something, whether I would be willing to do it, they ask about my ability. It could be interpreted as just lack of knowledge of modal verbs, but the overall behaviour is like "either the doctor does what I ask, or she is an idiot". It is extremely humiliating, coming from people without any education (including the one of proper behaviour towards others).


This is actually a belgicism, they very often use "savoir" instead of "pouvoir" in the sense of "could you please" (it's not impolite):

https://l-express.ca/quand-le-verbe-sav ... e-pouvoir/
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Cavesa
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:56 am

lingohot wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Another thing is the overuse of "savoir". Instead of asking, whether I would do something, whether I would be willing to do it, they ask about my ability. It could be interpreted as just lack of knowledge of modal verbs, but the overall behaviour is like "either the doctor does what I ask, or she is an idiot". It is extremely humiliating, coming from people without any education (including the one of proper behaviour towards others).


This is actually a belgicism, they very often use "savoir" instead of "pouvoir" in the sense of "could you please" (it's not impolite):

https://l-express.ca/quand-le-verbe-sav ... e-pouvoir/


That's very interesting, thanks!

Just a question. Is it probable, that the people with A1 or A2ish French are using a Belgicism on purpose or due to being taught some French in Belgium?

That's the issue. If it would be a Belgian using it, I'd accept it and learn to take it better, my bad. But I wonder, whether these people really learn this in their immigrant French courses, or it is the issue I feel there. Somehow, I am not reassured, given how often some of them ask for absence from their courses, and from the French knowledge of the friend of mine teaching in such classes. And I take hints from the rest of the conversation of course, it is often filled with attempts to push me towards something not indicated or even legal.

I simply don't know. That's one of the reasons, why I'd prefer to use the patients' native language. On top of also getting clearer information, giving clearer instructions, and overall better communication, especially with the older people.

Hopefully, I'll get the job in the Switzerland, and will no longer need to deal with this on such a scale.
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Feb 28, 2022 9:33 pm

A note about cultural French and Arabic speakers ...
Pour les arabophones, le vouvoiement n’existe pas vraiment. On entend parfois des orateurs utiliser la deuxième personne du pluriel en s’adressant a une seule ; il s’agit en fait d’une contamination linguistique, d’une innovation modèle en quelque sorte. En revanche, on peut accompagner le pronom d’une expression qui marque le respect, mais cela est plus ou moins usité l’oral selon les aires dialectales et les cultures.
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby DaveAgain » Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:02 am

zenmonkey wrote:A note about cultural French and Arabic speakers ...
Pour les arabophones, le vouvoiement n’existe pas vraiment. On entend parfois des orateurs utiliser la deuxième personne du pluriel en s’adressant a une seule ; il s’agit en fait d’une contamination linguistique, d’une innovation modèle en quelque sorte. En revanche, on peut accompagner le pronom d’une expression qui marque le respect, mais cela est plus ou moins usité l’oral selon les aires dialectales et les cultures.

One YouTube French teacher highlighted mixing up vous/tu as a common mistake among people learning French.
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Cavesa
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Re: Back to the roots and water them with coffee

Postby Cavesa » Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:21 am

Thanks, especially for pointing out how this is hard especially for the Arabic speakers. Tu/vous is zero problem for the Czech natives learning French (just like du/Sie), because we have the exactly same thing. And it is a good system. While anglophones apprecite the egalitarian You (but you have other ways to show hierarchy, which are confusing as hell for people from the more clear tu/vous or ty/vy systems sometimes), we start from mutual respect. Mutual respect is the value showed by this.

Nevertheless, I think this basic element of politeness should be one of the top priorities in the immigrant French classes, because it can really be an easily identifiable piece of mosaic, that makes an extremely bad impression.

For me, it is usually the final drop. When the person is already behaving disrespectfuly, has plenty of unreasonable demands, and treats me like a supermarket cashier (just yesterday a person with no indication for antibiotics, in a world full of doctor shaming for overprescription, this man really went to this "I am not going to the doctor to discuss anything, I am here to get my antibiotics prescription. If you cannot do it, I will ask someone more capable"), using "tu" while I clearly use "vous" is just the final element making me really regret this type of work. And I am really unlikely to have any understanding for their linguistic troubles in the given moment.

Immigrants need better "marketing" in many ways. And not appearing unnecessarily more rude (such as by failing tu/vous) could actually help the usual everyday experience. I am not talking about the refugees, those need to be helped at any cost, no matter such small stuff (and they are mostly rather respectful). But every time I get someone, who comes from a country without any war, is young and healthy, and gets public money, because he is "severely handicapped with dyslexia and therefore cannot ever work", demands documents to lie again to the authorities and get even more (while I was treated like shit by the same authorities, in spite of being much more valuable to the society), and then they also use "tu", it is a bit too much. At least they could be more respectful.

I really need a new job, out of this environment. Even if it is in German :-(
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