Jmar257's Language Log (ES, FR, DE) - Super Challenge, Assimil, and more

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jmar257
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Languages: English (N), español (Intermediate), français (Lower Intermediate), deutsch (beginner)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... hp?t=15645
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Re: Jmar257's Language Log (ES, FR, occasional LA, eventually DE)

Postby jmar257 » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:43 pm

Dagane wrote:
jmar257 wrote:Necesito escribir algo sobre eso eventualmente (¡Spanglish!), pero hoy no es el día.

Cuidado aquí. Esto es un error de Spanglish súper común, lo puedes ver en tropecientas malas traducciones wikipédicas. Aunque yo creo que en toda América se comete ya tanto que lo están convirtiendo en una nueva acepción de la palabra... Pero a lo que vamos: en español, algo "eventual" es algo incierto que puede o no pasar y no se corresponde con la aceptación inglesa de "finalmente". De todos modos, en tu caso "finalmente" tampoco cuadra; yo diría "en algún momento" / "en el futuro" / "en otro momento", etc.

¡Gracias! Mi spellcheck de Google Chrome no lo destacó así que asumí que la palabra era válida, pero te agradezco por indicarme que no es el caso. En general no quiero usar las palabras del Spanglish (salvo "okay", esa palabra es suficiente común que se puede usar, creo yo).
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Dagane
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I formerly studied:
Galician (B2?)
Dutch (A1)
Czech (A0)
Portuguese (A2?)
French (A1?)
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Re: Jmar257's Language Log (ES, FR, occasional LA, eventually DE)

Postby Dagane » Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:50 pm

De nada. "Eventualmente" existe, simplemente con otro significado. Aunque mucha gente la utiliza mal en muchos sitios por influencia del inglés.

"Okay" se entiende perfectamente, nadie va a ponerte caras raras; pero usarse..., no mucho o al menos no de donde yo vengo. Aunque se pone de moda de vez en cuando, seguimos usando la palabra española "vale" con muchísima más frecuencia.
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jmar257
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... hp?t=15645
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Re: Jmar257's Language Log (ES, FR, occasional LA, eventually DE)

Postby jmar257 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:23 pm

Dagane wrote:"Okay" se entiende perfectamente, nadie va a ponerte caras raras; pero usarse..., no mucho o al menos no de donde yo vengo. Aunque se pone de moda de vez en cuando, seguimos usando la palabra española "vale" con muchísima más frecuencia.

Ay, no sé cómo me olvidé "vale". Vi Club de Cuervos hace unos meses y las protagonistas de esta serie usan "okay" (y "vale") mucho, pero estos personajes son jóvenes y usan las palabras inglesas mucho cuando hablan, y también la jerga. Así que no quiero copiarlos demasiado :D
¿Cómo se dice "okay" en ese contexto: "The movie was okay"?

Empecé Africanus: Hijo del Consul anoche, y me gusta a pesar de haber leído un puñado de páginas. Y me acabo de enterar que se puede añadir el formateo ([ i ], etc.) por apretar alt y un botón (alt+i = italics).

I've slacked big time with watching Spanish TV, I've generally been watching YouTube (occasionally in Spanish) while I eat but mainly English channels I like. And I've been playing a bunch of Valorant instead of reading more...
Last edited by jmar257 on Fri Feb 19, 2021 2:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Dagane
Orange Belt
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:08 pm
Location: London, UK
Languages: I regularly use:
Spanish (N)
English (C2)
German (C1+)
Hungarian (A2?)

I formerly studied:
Galician (B2?)
Dutch (A1)
Czech (A0)
Portuguese (A2?)
French (A1?)
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Re: Jmar257's Language Log (ES, FR, occasional LA, eventually DE)

Postby Dagane » Fri Feb 19, 2021 1:51 am

jmar257 wrote:¿Cómo se dice "okay" en ese contexto: "The movie was okay"?

Simplemente "la película (o la peli) estuvo bien". Eso es muy neutral. Por países y regiones se podría decir de muchas otras formas.

El okay viene por modas. La generación anterior a la mía decía "okay makay", o como sea que lo escribieran. En la mía lo hemos usado poquito, por temporadas.
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jmar257
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Re: Jmar257's Language Log (ES, FR, occasional LA, eventually DE)

Postby jmar257 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:44 pm

Will do a full update later but I do have a question for Spanish speakers: in the book I'm reading now (Africanus: Hijo del Consul), I've noticed the author has used both forms of the imperfect subjunctive (-se and -ra). As I understand it, -se is more common in Spain (which fits--the author is Spanish), but what is odd to me is that he switches between both and it hasn't been in dialogue. The book is set in Ancient Rome (and Carthage, and the Iberian Peninsula of the time) and I could understand if he was using them to distinguish speech among different groups or something, but it doesn't seem to be used for that purpose. Which brings me to my question: Is this common, and why would an author do this? It doesn't pose a problem for me at all in terms of comprehension, but I was curious and can't find anything with a quick Google search beyond links explaining that there are two forms of the imperfect subjunctive. Is it common for a single speaker/writer to switch between them? Is there any difference in meaning when one does so (I'm under the impression that there isn't)? I've read one or two books by Spanish authors before and haven't noticed this, although it could very well have happened in the short book I read before this one (although I only remember seeing -se forms, but -ra ones don't really stand out to me at this point because I'm used to them).
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Ale
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Re: Jmar257's Language Log (ES, FR, occasional LA, eventually DE)

Postby Ale » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:57 pm

jmar257 wrote:Will do a full update later but I do have a question for Spanish speakers: in the book I'm reading now (Africanus: Hijo del Consul), I've noticed the author has used both forms of the imperfect subjunctive (-se and -ra). As I understand it, -se is more common in Spain (which fits--the author is Spanish), but what is odd to me is that he switches between both and it hasn't been in dialogue. The book is set in Ancient Rome (and Carthage, and the Iberian Peninsula of the time) and I could understand if he was using them to distinguish speech among different groups or something, but it doesn't seem to be used for that purpose. Which brings me to my question: Is this common, and why would an author do this? It doesn't pose a problem for me at all in terms of comprehension, but I was curious and can't find anything with a quick Google search beyond links explaining that there are two forms of the imperfect subjunctive. Is it common for a single speaker/writer to switch between them? Is there any difference in meaning when one does so (I'm under the impression that there isn't)? I've read one or two books by Spanish authors before and haven't noticed this, although it could very well have happened in the short book I read before this one (although I only remember seeing -se forms, but -ra ones don't really stand out to me at this point because I'm used to them).


As far as I'm aware, there's no distinction between both. I find myself using one or the other, but I don't make any conscious decision to choose one. Sometimes I would say si fuera rico... and others I would say si fuese rico.... If an author was to use the different forms to distinguish speech among different groups, honestly I don't think I would notice due to how deeply interiorized I have this.

I would say though that the -ra form is the most common of the two, even in Spain (where I am from). I can't talk for other Spanish speaking countries.
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rpg
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Re: Jmar257's Language Log (ES, FR, occasional LA, eventually DE)

Postby rpg » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:16 pm

There are a few cases where they're not interchangeable. The -ra form evolved from the pluperfect tense and is still sometimes used as a pluperfect. The -ra form also sometimes is used instead of the conditional, particularly with hubiera/habría.
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jmar257
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Posts: 268
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:41 pm
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Re: Jmar257's Language Log (ES, FR, occasional LA, eventually DE)

Postby jmar257 » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:16 pm

Ale wrote:As far as I'm aware, there's no distinction between both. I find myself using one or the other, but I don't make any conscious decision to choose one. Sometimes I would say si fuera rico... and others I would say si fuese rico.... If an author was to use the different forms to distinguish speech among different groups, honestly I don't think I would notice due to how deeply interiorized I have this.

I would say though that the -ra form is the most common of the two, even in Spain (where I am from). I can't talk for other Spanish speaking countries.

¡Gracias por la respuesta y bienvenido al foro! Mi próxima pregunta es: ¿por qué mezclar las formas en un libro? ¿Es tanto común mezclar las dos formas que un redactor no hubiera cambiado una de ellas? I would've guess previously that just for consistency's sake in a published work you'd want to stick to one, but I'm obviously not a native. I guess that's what surprised me most. The author largely sticks to -se forms though.
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Ale
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Re: Jmar257's Language Log (ES, FR, occasional LA, eventually DE)

Postby Ale » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:32 pm

jmar257 wrote:¡Gracias por la respuesta y bienvenido al foro! Mi próxima pregunta es: ¿por qué mezclar las formas en un libro? ¿Es tanto común mezclar las dos formas que un redactor no hubiera cambiado una de ellas? I would've guess previously that just for consistency's sake in a published work you'd want to stick to one, but I'm obviously not a native. I guess that's what surprised me most. The author largely sticks to -se forms though.

Gracias. La verdad es que no puedo darte una respuesta concreta para tu pregunta. Yo creo que sí: como es tan común mezclar las dos formas y como ambas son correctas, no creo que ningún editor se moleste en hacer que siempre se use la misma. You are not a native, but I'm not a linguist, so I may be missing some nuances. I'm interested in some examples of those exceptions that rpg mentioned, as at the moment I'm not able to think of any case in which I could use one form and not the other.

I've always had a personal preference for -se as well :P
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rpg
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Re: Jmar257's Language Log (ES, FR, occasional LA, eventually DE)

Postby rpg » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:02 pm

Ale wrote: I'm interested in some examples of those exceptions that rpg mentioned, as at the moment I'm not able to think of any case in which I could use one form and not the other.


Sure thing! Here are some examples and rules given in Butt & Benjamin's grammar:

1) -ra as pluperfect: Fue el único rastro que dejó en el que fuera su hogar de casada por cinco horas. from García Márquez (here fuera replaces había sido). This was the original usage of the -ra forms before they acquired the subjunctive meaning they normally have today. They say that in cases like this one can very rarely find the -se form too but that it sounds "rather forced".

2) -ra as conditional: El mal lo mismo se hubiera colado por alguna grieta de las piedras del castillo. from M. Puig (here hubiera colado for habría colado). Nowadays this is usually only seen with a few verbs: haber, querer, deber, poder, and sounds archaic with other verbs. In this case they say use of the -se form is rejected by grammarians but still common in spontaneous speech.
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