Throwing Mud at the Wall - Beginner Spanish

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
FeoGringo
Yellow Belt
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 11:42 pm
Languages: English (N), Spanish (beginner)
x 406

Re: Throwing Mud at the Wall - Beginner Spanish

Postby FeoGringo » Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:13 am

Monday April 26th 2021

Language Transfer:
Lessons 1,2,3 completed

Spanish Literacy Project (Spanish4Texas.org):
Fondamentos - Step 1 - Count the Beats (vowels, dipthongs & hiatus) - watched video lecture (will probably review)

Ten Minute Spanish - Youtube Channel:
Spanish Pronunciation: Dipthongs - watched video (will definitely review)

Native content:
El Dragon S2E15 watched with Spanish subtitles


Thoughts: I thought reviewing the basics was going to be slow and boring, granted I did find the Fondamentos video lecture boring, BUT the Ten Minute Spanish video got me excited about reviewing and learning proper pronunciation. I like the way he presents the material by providing the correct way and then demonstrating the pitfalls and the common way English speakers learning Spanish as a second language will pronounce things. I've definitely been making many of the mistakes that are touched on in the video ("gracias" is a good example). I may just do a deep dive into his Youtube videos on pronunciation.

Overall this was a very small amount of work, but I need to start small and be consistent and then I can build up. I will probably update the log weekly but I had to document that I've at least started and not procrastinated!
8 x

FeoGringo
Yellow Belt
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 11:42 pm
Languages: English (N), Spanish (beginner)
x 406

Re: Throwing Mud at the Wall - Beginner Spanish

Postby FeoGringo » Wed May 19, 2021 2:23 am

Took a break again. Procrastination vs consistency has always been an issue with me. I've been doing more reading on the forums and watching of Youtube videos on learning languages then actually putting work in.

A few days ago, I took the training wheels off and turned off Spanish subtitles with El Dragon and with focused listening and in some cases contextual clues I was able to make out quite a bit. I tried my best to transcribe short scenes with lots of relistening. Call me crazy but I enjoy intensive listening with transcription (and subtitles to check against) because its black and white proof that my listening comprehension is improving. I definitely think my lazy year of mostly watching Spanish content on Youtube and Netflix has given me some sort of base.

Tonight I watched Ten Minute Spanish's Youtube video dealing with the "tr" letter combination and I've immediately cleaned up my pronunciation for words like otro and nosotros. The Youtube channel is a real hidden gem and his video "Why Study Pronunciation?" really resonated with me.
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VELhjJ7IboI[/youtube]

I finished Lessons 5 and 6 of Language Transfer. I also did Lesson 7 but realized I had kind of stopped paying attention and will re-listen tomorrow. I may aim for just one to two lessons of Language Transfer a day.

I was browsing this https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10673 and found this quote:
James29 wrote:Try FSI lesson 3 and see how many times through you need to master it. If you can master it after two or three runs through it (without stopping the audio) you are ready to to dive in. If it takes you 5+ you are going to be in for a very long tedious haul.


So I decided to do Unit 3 of FSI Basic. I just went through it once and it wasn't bad, had to pause for some of the variation drills. I didn't fully understand what you're supposed to do with the narrative and dialogs at the end of the unit. I could see mastering it in three run throughs, depending on what the heck you're supposed to do for the end of unit dialogs.

The speed of the audio doesn't seem overly fast (but I know users have commented that the audio is native speed versus some of the more unnaturally slow audio found in other courses) however trying to repeat at the same speed just seems like one giant tongue twister. I feel like if I jumped into FSI without doing a huge chunk of pronunciation practice ahead of time that I would just be fossilizing poor pronunciation habits.

Here's a question and maybe it is worth making a separate thread about. It seems that when non-native learners try to match the speed of a native speaker, pronunciation suffers. So what is the answer? Accept it. Practice slow and gradually build up speed while maintaining as good a level of pronunciation as you can manage? Or are we better off keeping our output slow and clear (will that frustrate and be a detriment to conversations with native speakers)?

I guess I'm going through analysis, paralysis again. I want to reach a high level of Spanish. I know it will take years to achieve and that it will be a never ending journey. My focus has been on listening comprehension because for me that is the most important skill (with speaking being second). I know I will never sound like a native but I'd like to have decent pronunciation and not a stereotypical gringo accent.

I see the value in FSI and am not intimidated by it, I'm excited to do it even with the knowledge that it will take 6 months to complete maybe more. I guess I'm just wondering if I painstakingly go through it with a focus on optimal pronunciation it will make a long process even longer. I could end up spinning my wheels and wasting too much time and slowing my progress although speed of progress is not my main concern. I don't know if I just have the wrong mindset. Should I not be viewing FSI through the lens of pronunciation and instead just in terms of automaticity with output and grammatical patterns? Should I allot time focused on pronunciation separate from working through FSI?

Well, that's enough stream of consciousness for one night. Hopefully a kind soul will respond so I don't feel totally insane.
10 x

FeoGringo
Yellow Belt
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 11:42 pm
Languages: English (N), Spanish (beginner)
x 406

Re: Throwing Mud at the Wall - Beginner Spanish

Postby FeoGringo » Sat May 22, 2021 10:25 pm

Wednesday 5/19/21
Language Transfer - Lesson 7, Lesson 8
Pronunciation Practice:
"tr" combo - otro, nosotros
"d" sound - alternating between the english d and the more "th" sound - cuidado, terminado, dedo
*I noticed I have a habit of whispering with all of it and realized I wasn't speaking with good normal volume, I fixed that and practiced some more
Listening practice - transcription, 30 second clip from El Dragon got 90% of it, missed some things, I think part of it is is not listening carefully enough, and transcribing what I'm expecting to hear

Thursday 5/20/21
Language Transfer - Lesson 9
Youtube Videos - a Robert Mitz video and a Chente Yrdrach video
30 minutes of El Dragon with no subtitles

I feel like there's been a big jump in word parsing. I am able to identify most spoken words - even if I don't know the meaning I would be able to write out the word that I heard. I hate to keep harping on it but I really think the past year or so of the lazy/fun method of taking in native Spanish content, tolerating ambiguity (as Matt vs Japan likes to say), and previously using Spanish subtitles has given me a base and trained my ears to an extent.

Friday 5/21/21
Language Transfer - Lessons 10, 11

Saturday 5/22/21
El Dragon - watched two episodes with no subtitles.

Language Transfer - Lesson 12, 13, 14

I think Language Transfer is too basic for me (yet based on the scores of some of those free Spanish rating tests - it shouldn't be too basic for me). It's definitely laying out some of the grammar although so far it's stuff that I've already been exposed to through native content. Granted there are 90 Lessons in total and I am not even a quarter of the way through it.

This might just be my personal preference but I think the emphasis on cognates (in the Language Transfer course and in general when people talk about native English speakers learning Spanish) is overrated. I think people overstate how much it really adds to the ease of learning the language and I'd argue it doesn't add all that much. Sure, I see how it could be motivating to a stark beginner "oh look, there are some words that are similar to my native language!"

Anyway, I think it's important for me to work through a course and finish it so I will continue with Language Transfer.
8 x

FeoGringo
Yellow Belt
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 11:42 pm
Languages: English (N), Spanish (beginner)
x 406

Re: Throwing Mud at the Wall - Beginner Spanish

Postby FeoGringo » Fri May 28, 2021 12:26 am

Sunday 5/23/21
Language Transfer - Lesson 15
Listened to one episode of Radio Ambulante, had to refer to the transcript quite a bit (probably too advanced for me for listening comprehension, but probably useful for new vocab)
Watched one episode of El Dragon without subtitles
Watched one episode of La Nina without subtitles

Monday 5/24/21
Language Transfer - Lessons 16 and 17

Wednesday 5/26/21
Language Transfer - Lessons 18 and 19

Thursday 5/27/21
Watched one episode of El Dragon without subtitles

Played around with Anki - trialed sub2srs and some custom audio cards. I might use the cloze deletion card type in conjunction with Kwiziq or a grammar book, specifically for verb conjugations but who knows. I also messed around with the FSI Basic Anki Deck (78 cards in 15 minutes, not that I care about any stats, just as a reference for myself). Card creation, the way I would want to do it, seems like it could be a big potential time suck.

Thinking about future plans. I might explore a Spanish pronunciation tutor/coach. My local library has the Paul Noble course and from what I've read it is similar to Michel Thomas who of course inspired Language Transfer's method.

When I finish El Dragon I will move on to another show but I may also slowly work through El Dragon again. There are several ways I could potentially do this but the option I'm leaning towards is picking apart scenarios and scenes on the show that would likely show up in other TV shows and try to focus on those phrases. Work scene by scene in this way until I commit relevant sentences to memory. Not sure how useful it would be but just brainstorming.

For now it's continue with Language Transfer and finish watching El Dragon. Considering revisiting Destinos that I watched a few episodes of a last year. But part of me says why bother when I'm already consuming native content.

I'm not going to beat myself up for getting nothing done on Tuesday or for not doing a lesson of Language Transfer today. Consistency is what I'm after but there will be missed days and less productive days here and there. In the past I would have stopped for a long while after missing Tuesday.
8 x

FeoGringo
Yellow Belt
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 11:42 pm
Languages: English (N), Spanish (beginner)
x 406

Re: Throwing Mud at the Wall - Beginner Spanish

Postby FeoGringo » Mon May 31, 2021 5:05 pm

Saturday 5/29/21
Language Transfer - 20

Took a look at some of the Spanish Proficiency Exercises from the University of Austin website
Went through five of the beginning lessons, transcribed all short videos (they have transcripts), looked through all grammar points, vocab and key phrases. I might try to work my way through the entire website, maybe without the transcribing and save that for pulling out scenes from TV shows/movies/podcasts.

Sunday 5/30/21
FSI Anki Basic Deck
Custom building cloze deletion deck from Kwiziq for verb conjugations
Also did an exercise that would took a LOT of time and probably won't do it in exactly the same way next time - worked off of two subtitle files (English and Spanish) for the first episode of Distrito Salvaje to organize it into a parallel text, and occasionally looking up on SpanishDict, Reverso Context, and DeepL where the English translations in the subtitles seemed not quite right. Also highlighted any words I was unfamiliar with. Got through 10 minutes of the running time of the episode. Working through an entire episode worth of subtitles would take hours. Not sure how to make the process more efficient as it does seem like it could be valuable.

Monday 5/31/21
Language Transfer - 21
Episode of El Dragon

I'm going to sound like a broken record. I know it seems like I'm bouncing from method to method and spreading myself thin. I think being consistent and actually finishing Language Transfer is a good start. On top of that continuing to take in native content and for now having fun messing around with these other methods. So slow progress with a structured course while spinning my wheels with other stuff? I guess that's something.
7 x

FeoGringo
Yellow Belt
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 11:42 pm
Languages: English (N), Spanish (beginner)
x 406

Re: Throwing Mud at the Wall - Beginner Spanish

Postby FeoGringo » Fri Jun 18, 2021 12:43 am

Back again with a non-update. Procrastination set in again. Maybe I should change the name of this log to "Banging my head against the wall - Procrastinating beginning Spanish"

But I have been watching a lot of native content. Practicing my listening comprehension at work with eavesdropping. Looking up how to say some things here and there. I trialed a pronunciation class but it doesn't seem to mesh with me. I think working through the Ten Minute Spanish videos and practicing reading outloud daily will help and self analyzing will help. I might have to research iTalki tutors who work specifically on pronounciation.

My listening skills are decent, still probably overrating myself. But I gist quite a bit of most things (probably missing tons of details), and some things are just automatic now, certain phrases there is no translating in my head, just instantaneous gestalt understanding.

Gotta get back on track with Language Transfer and go from there.
6 x

FeoGringo
Yellow Belt
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 11:42 pm
Languages: English (N), Spanish (beginner)
x 406

Re: Throwing Mud at the Wall - Beginner Spanish

Postby FeoGringo » Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:41 pm

Yesterday I went back a few lessons of Language Transfer from where I left off. Now I'm at lesson 16, three lessons a day should have me finishing Language Transfer towards the end of the month.

Despite my inconsistent study/practice I've been looking forward to starting FSI Basic so I decided to just jump in. Just worked my way through Unit 1 of FSI Basic.

The stress and intonation drills were not too bad, I think I naturally have a decent ear for stress and intonation but pronunciation is definitely not solid. For some reason with the trilled r, I can do it voiceless (is that even possible) but again, I have to kind of pause and "wind up" in order to get it. Besides practicing the trilled r there are some consonant clusters I still really have to drill because I have to stumble and pause to get them (and inconsistently) - "gr" "pr" "tr". An r at the end of sentences I also find difficult to get right.

I have to figure out prioritizing certain things and stick to them, there is so much to cover in a language, but for now my focus will be:

1.) Pronunciation practice - Ten Minute Spanish youtube videos; drills from FSI Basic, I'm not sure if the extensive stress and intonation drills are carried on through the entire course, but the Unit 1 drills seem worth repeating
2.) Native input (intensive and extensive listening) - Finally finishing El Dragon, starting Betty La Fea which appears to be free on Youtube, and other shows and Youtubers and podcasts.
3.) Collecting useful phrases from shows I'm watching for future practice; might mess around with SRS.
4.) Formal course (Language Transfer and FSI Basic).

Despite being motivated, procrastination is always an issue. So I have to determine a minimal level of work to do daily or weekly covering each of those four.

1.) Pronunciation Practice - 5 Ten Minute Spanish Youtube videos a week, and 10 minutes of practicing outloud the specific phoneme; FSI drills not sure how I'd split those up
2.) Native Input - At least one hour daily of a show
3.) Collecting 5 phrases a day from native content or maybe 20 phrases a week (accumulated over time it will be a lot)
4.) Language Transfer - 3 lessons a day (minimum of 1 lesson/day); FSI Basic - 1 Unit a week (I have to go do a forum search again, and look over all those threads and get a sense of general recommendations of the best way to work through FSI)

I still don't know if I'm spreading myself too thin. Initially I was only really interested in listening comprehension, then the goal of decent pronunciation popped up and now I'd like to actually be able to string together some grammatically correct sentences with accuracy and automaticity. So I think it's best to tackle them together or I'll never get around to it all.
7 x

FeoGringo
Yellow Belt
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed May 27, 2020 11:42 pm
Languages: English (N), Spanish (beginner)
x 406

Re: Throwing Mud at the Wall - Beginner Spanish

Postby FeoGringo » Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:28 pm

Chipping away at Language Transfer each day. Finally finished El Dragon and my go through it slower now, collect phrases that I think I would use or hear in real life (or that I would hear on another TV show or movie). Betty La Fea episodes on Youtube look really short in length so it will be easy enough to do at least one a day.

I keep reading on the internet how Colombia is the easiest Spanish to understand and so far, in my beginner's mind, I'm not seeing it (hearing it). I just tried another episode of La Nina set in Colombia and it still seems much faster and more incomprehensible than El Dragon. For El Dragon, I wonder how much the actors and actresses are modulating their delivery of lines to have the show be a more "neutral" Spanish. I know the main actor is from Argentina but playing a Mexican character.

Time for some stream of consciousness/random thoughts.

Pronunciation and accent seems like a lost cause. It probably stems from impatience and unrealistic expectations. I have no illusions of ever getting to a level of being mistaken for a native. There are a lot of great English second language learners who have a light or slight accent but otherwise great pronunciation and accent (and even this could be a lofty goal). There are also Spanish second language learners (as well as learners of other languages) who are internet famous for their native like accent (i.e. Dustin Luke - Buenos Aires accent, Bilingue Blogs - supposedly has a near native Dominican Republic accent).

Two things stand out: 1) most people with good accents and pronunciation appear to have been exposed and started studying languages when they were younger (by younger I mean late teens to early 20s); 2) they most likely have some innate ability when it comes to imitation. I am starting the language learning journey in my late 30s and I doubt I have any innate talent for imitating. Add to that I think I have below normal oral motor awareness of where my tongue is positioned in my mouth during sounds. I'm sure dedicated practice will move the needle from "poor" to "improved" (whatever that means) and I'll take whatever improvement I can get. It also becomes a question of time, when I also need to dedicate time to listening comprehension and output skills.

I don't want to be a Youtube star or internet famous. But it is frustrating, and this is just my experience, it seems the way many native speakers view a non-native speaker is based on accent and pronunciation. When you read or hear comments on a non-native from native speakers saying "Her Spanish is great!" or "His Spanish is awful!" they are almost always referring to pronunciation and accent as opposed to grammar, fluidity, vocabulary. This could be more of an ego thing, and I have to remind myself I'm not learning Spanish with the goal of trying to impress people. But I also don't want poor pronunciation and accent to be a barrier to a communication where native speakers can't understand me or give up because it is too difficult to understand me.

So I guess the bottom line is the likelihood of developing an amazing accent is in the single digit percent range. The likelihood I can improve upon my current pronunciation and be more understandable to native speakers - 80-90% likely.
Last edited by FeoGringo on Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
7 x

gsbod
Blue Belt
Posts: 839
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:22 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (native)
German (advanced)
French (intermediate)
Japanese (intermediate)
Spanish (learning)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=1152
x 2900

Re: Throwing Mud at the Wall - Beginner Spanish

Postby gsbod » Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:01 pm

Pronunciation doesn't come easy to me either. It is something I do work on, but I also accept it is something that I will never get to a near native level. I also find descriptions of where to put my tongue (or anything else to do with the mouth that you can't actually see) pretty much useless. I think this is why I am no good at dance, or yoga, or anything like that. So basically I read the descriptions and take in as much as I can, get some good models and listen and repeat using trial and error to get as close as I can, while trying to accept I will never be perfect. As long as I can hear the gap between how I speak and how it's supposed to sound, and close that gap a little bit at a time, I know I'm making progress. And as long as my pronunciation isn't impeding communication, it's good enough, regardless of the idle comments of armchair critics on Youtube.
6 x

User avatar
luke
Brown Belt
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:09 pm
Languages: English (N). Spanish (intermediate), Esperanto (B1), French (intermediate but rusting)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16948
x 3631

Re: Throwing Mud at the Wall - Beginner Spanish

Postby luke » Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:04 am

FeoGringo wrote:I recently found what I think is a great free resource part of the Defense Language Institute, called Spanish Phone Conversations. They are recorded dialogues formatted to sound like regular phone calls. The only problem is there is no transcript. I'm going to try to work through one a day (only 2-3 minutes long) and transcribe them as best I can.

Here's the link for those who are interested.
https://phone.dliflc.edu/default_spanish.asp


That is an interesting link. They let you pick the dialect too.

FeoGringo wrote:Finished my first listening exercise/transcription activity. I chose a level 3 dialogue and a Mexican accent.

Here is the link for the audio, it's track 3 labeled "Discussing the Importance of Mealtime"https://phone.dliflc.edu/result_spanish.asp?languageSelect=5&levelSelect=5&topicSelect=7&submit=Search#

This was an enjoyable activity and I will continue to do these until they stop being fun!


I chose a level 2 dialog and it seemed reasonably interesting.

Thanks for the tips!
2 x


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests