DUPLE C2, DELE C2, CILE C2, DALF C2

[LundiHákarlsson]

Again I forgot to post, and whatever I had written was just saved in the text box for months.

The New Year has passed (indeed it is now mid-February), so Feliz Año Nuevo/Buon'Anno Nuovo.

I have been quite busy yet again, without much time to learn and maintain as many languages as I want. I found out that I have to complete the dichiarazione di valore for the Itailan government. This means that I need to complete a massive amount of bureaucratic paperwork to have my degrees, diplomas, etc. officially translated by sworn translators under perjury, etc. Just reading about it makes it seem daunting to me. This is all because I am a non-EU/EEC passport holder, as EU/EEC passport holders do not need to complete this step. Another reason I strongly desire to get citizenship in a European country. If anyone here as completed the dichiarazione di valore themselves, some advice would be much appreciated.

I assume you are familiar with SDN's Europe Subforum?

I made an account there, so thank you for that resource.

I am writing this at 02.00, and over three months since I had first started typing this post, so obviously I had forgotten to finish. Thanks to autosave, it is still here.

It seems like being a freelance translator is close to impossible without formal certification. So I plan to someday sit all of the DUPLE C2 (Portuguese), DELE C2 (Spanish), CELI C2 (Italian) and DALF C2 (French) exams.

All by self-study with zero formal classes and no tutor. Quite insane, but I know that I can do it. One example is when I taught myself Calculus in high school without formal classes and without tutors/teacher, and thus saved myself from wasting a whole year learning that in my first year at university.

One urgent goal is to prepare as intensely, efficiently and quickly as possible to get to C2 in Portuguese and sit the DUPLE C2. Apparently Portuguese universities only accept EU applicants to their medical schools. At least, that is what it seems. Neither the Portuguese embassies nor the Portuguese universities can confirm if this is actually necessary, so I have to assume that it is. Thus, the goal is to emigrate to Portugal as fast as possible, gain permanent residency, get some job(s) there and some money and apply to medical schools there.

To sit my first language certification exam sounds scary, but it is worth it. I always say, go big or go home. Sitting something like the B2 or C1 seems like a complete waste of time and effort. The only levels for any language exams that I would want to sit would be C2. It is indisputable when anyone has a C2 that they know the language well, and from what I read, anyone who has a DUPLE C2 certificate is assumed to be as good at Portuguese as a native, thus they never have to prove their language abilities for anything, even university entrance and Portuguese citizenship.

Portugal seem to be a good choice, for many reasons. I fell in love with the country during my visit there three years ago, and weighing the advantages and disadvantages, there are more of the former. Much cheaper than many European countries, better governments, cheap and delicious food, and a calm, developed country.

Now it is almost 03.00, so I should sleep.

[tiia]

I just saw this log today, so I don't know whether you still consider Finland as a possible choice or not. But maybe someone else may stumble upon this log, so I thought to add this here anyway.

Although studying medicine in Swedish is possible, the amount of students is limited to max. 5% of all the students starting medicine each year. Medical school in Swedish is only possible to attend in Helsinki, but no other University in Finland. [Source in Finnish] Limiting yourself to Swedish basically means you are limiting yourself to only one University and only 5% of the spots available.
Except, of course, if you are interested in living in Sweden. Then Swedish is probably an excellent choice.

[lingohot]

It seems like being a freelance translator is close to impossible without formal certification. So I plan to someday sit all of the DUPLE C2 (Portuguese), DELE C2 (Spanish), CELI C2 (Italian) and DALF C2 (French) exams.

All by self-study with zero formal classes and no tutor. Quite insane, but I know that I can do it. One example is when I taught myself Calculus in high school without formal classes and without tutors/teacher, and thus saved myself from wasting a whole year learning that in my first year at university.

Translating is a real profession and not something anyone with a C2 level in a language can do to bridge the time gap until they can go to med school.

Apart from that, I find it somewhat unrealistic to reach a C2 level in four foreign languages in the foreseeable future (or at all). You certainly can't compare the effort with high school mathematics (if that should be meant seriously at all).

Although studying medicine in Swedish is possible, the amount of students is limited to max. 5% of all the students starting medicine each year. Medical school in Swedish is only possible to attend in Helsinki, but no other University in Finland. [Source in Finnish] Limiting yourself to Swedish basically means you are limiting yourself to only one University and only 5% of the spots available.

But on the other hand it seems to be quite ambitious to learn so much Finnish that you can actually go to Finland and study medicine in Finnish. I mean, it's not an easy language for "indogermanic" native speakers.

[LundiHákarlsson]

I just saw this log today, so I don't know whether you still consider Finland as a possible choice or not. But maybe someone else may stumble upon this log, so I thought to add this here anyway.

Although studying medicine in Swedish is possible, the amount of students is limited to max. 5% of all the students starting medicine each year. Medical school in Swedish is only possible to attend in Helsinki, but no other University in Finland. [Source in Finnish] Limiting yourself to Swedish basically means you are limiting yourself to only one University and only 5% of the spots available.
Except, of course, if you are interested in living in Sweden. Then Swedish is probably an excellent choice.

Thanks for the information. Yes, Finland is still an option. In general, I put much thought into my options, so it is very rare that I remove something from my options list.

Given that I have a US passport, clearly my options are limited compared to EU citizens in basically every European country. So I keep open many options. I would say most European countries are in my options, excluding places like Poland (for many reasons), and what I would consider "second-world" countries, such as Bulgaria and Moldova. And for obvious reasons, definitely neither Ukraine nor Russia are on my list.

If I had to make a list of all the countries that are within my options, the list would probably be like this:

1) Portugal
2) Italy
3) Catalunya
4) Czechia
5) Finland
6) France
7) Sweden
8) Norway
9) Netherlands
10) Belgium

I would say that the top five are more or less fixed, whilst the bottom five are fairly arbitrary and could move up and down. Below the top ten, the order is not fixed at all; I just have no idea what the order would look like.

In any case, I actually have many Finnish learning books; actually on my desk right now a few cm away from me, I have six Finnish books. Definitely not easy reading, but doable...

[tiia]

Although studying medicine in Swedish is possible, the amount of students is limited to max. 5% of all the students starting medicine each year. Medical school in Swedish is only possible to attend in Helsinki, but no other University in Finland. [Source in Finnish] Limiting yourself to Swedish basically means you are limiting yourself to only one University and only 5% of the spots available.

But on the other hand it seems to be quite ambitious to learn so much Finnish that you can actually go to Finland and study medicine in Finnish. I mean, it's not an easy language for "indogermanic" native speakers.

Well, I think I do have an idea, what it means to learn Finnish to a professional level, though not in the field of medicine. But in contrast to almost any other field there do exist a few books and classes for medical Finnish.

The thing is, that already during the studies you will have to deal with patients and hospital staff and so on. Patients will speak mostly Finnish, the staff will mostly use Finnish and even at the University they say that during the studies in Swedish the students may be confronted with Finnish, same as Finnish-speaking students may be confronted with Swedish. (And that some literature can be in English.) So avoiding Finnish alltogether is simply impossible. So why should you then limit yourself to only 5% of the places?

Thanks for the information. Yes, Finland is still an option. In general, I put much thought into my options, so it is very rare that I remove something from my options list.

In any case, I actually have many Finnish learning books; actually on my desk right now a few cm away from me, I have six Finnish books. Definitely not easy reading, but doable...

Well, that is good to hear.

The language is definitely possible to learn and University studies would make it much easier to reach a level beyond B2, which is what one would need to work here as a physician. There are few resources at that level, so studies in the language could be a great help.

The main issue I have seen during all the years is that learners of Finnish often don't have the patience to actually achieve a high level and give up before they can use the language freely. But I have met others that achieved a high level, too. It just takes time and effort.

[LupCenușiu]

If I had to make a list of all the countries that are within my options, the list would probably be like this:

1) Portugal
2) Italy
3) Catalunya
4) Czechia
5) Finland
6) France
7) Sweden
8) Norway
9) Netherlands
10) Belgium

Relatively minor detail, but only 9 out of those 10 are countries

[lingohot]

Although studying medicine in Swedish is possible, the amount of students is limited to max. 5% of all the students starting medicine each year. Medical school in Swedish is only possible to attend in Helsinki, but no other University in Finland. [Source in Finnish] Limiting yourself to Swedish basically means you are limiting yourself to only one University and only 5% of the spots available.

But on the other hand it seems to be quite ambitious to learn so much Finnish that you can actually go to Finland and study medicine in Finnish. I mean, it's not an easy language for "indogermanic" native speakers.

Well, I think I do have an idea, what it means to learn Finnish to a professional level, though not in the field of medicine. But in contrast to almost any other field there do exist a few books and classes for medical Finnish.

The thing is, that already during the studies you will have to deal with patients and hospital staff and so on. Patients will speak mostly Finnish, the staff will mostly use Finnish and even at the University they say that during the studies in Swedish the students may be confronted with Finnish, same as Finnish-speaking students may be confronted with Swedish. (And that some literature can be in English.) So avoiding Finnish alltogether is simply impossible. So why should you then limit yourself to only 5% of the places?

Why limit yourself to Finnland in the first place? Why not going to another country with an objectively easier language if these are on the list anyway? You write yourself that they need to master Finnish and also speak Swedish as some patients are Swedish speakers. Difficult if you study medicine and 4 other languages up to C2 to become a translator at the same time. But they will do it. Peace of cake.

Come on, as if any of this is ever going to happen.

[Lawyer&Mom]

I would pick the country with the easiest med school for you to get into and then actually get in. Worry about the dual citizenship *after* you are a doctor. No it isn’t super easy to change countries as a doctor but it isn’t impossible. It has to be easier than learning a handful of disparate languages to a high level.

[Xenops]

I would pick the country with the easiest med school for you to get into and then actually get in. Worry about the dual citizenship *after* you are a doctor. No it isn’t super easy to change countries as a doctor but it isn’t impossible. It has to be easier than learning a handful of disparate languages to a high level.

It really depends, though: like medical schools in the U.S. and Canada, some European schools prefer their own citizens, and either charge international students the same as in the U.S. (think 1/2 to 3/4 million dollars) or just flat out refuse international students altogether. Or you have the French medical education system, where admission is *free* but you have to be the top 10% to get the degree.

Rather, I would investigate which medical system fits your values. The book "Healing of America" by T.R. Reid convinced me to give up premed studies in the U.S. Later working as a medical technologist further confirmed my belief (except for nurses: they have a union here, they are visible, and they are treated very well). After some research, then focus on that country, and that language. My old anatomy and physiology instructor taught us "point economics"--focus on what would benefit you the most, and forget the smaller ones.

[LundiHákarlsson]

If I had to make a list of all the countries that are within my options, the list would probably be like this:

1) Portugal
2) Italy
3) Catalunya
4) Czechia
5) Finland
6) France
7) Sweden
8) Norway
9) Netherlands
10) Belgium

Relatively minor detail, but only 9 out of those 10 are countries

I checked the list again thoroughly; all 10 are countries.

Why limit yourself to Finnland in the first place? Why not going to another country with an objectively easier language if these are on the list anyway? You write yourself that they need to master Finnish and also speak Swedish as some patients are Swedish speakers. Difficult if you study medicine and 4 other languages up to C2 to become a translator at the same time. But they will do it. Peace of cake.

Come on, as if any of this is ever going to happen.

I know it sounds insane, but usually when people write me off, that is when I am at my most motivated. That usually helps me in any field. Over 90% of people whom I know have told me that it is impossible to become a chess grandmaster after the age of 30, but it just motivates me when people tell me that I cannot do certain things. Same with these four C2 exams. I am also "old" for medical school if you listen to conventional wisdom; I turn 33 this year.

I never really wanted to become a translator, but I cannot really do anything else right now. I have a 100% employment rejection rate of late, with over 1000 job applications rejected in the past few months. Freelance translation is something that I could do more easily, than say, go work in some petroleum refinery and end up years later with some terminal cancer.

I mean, if I have to end up sleeping less than 25 hours a week to achieve all of these goals, I will do it. Challenges always bloom motivation.

It really depends, though: like medical schools in the U.S. and Canada, some European schools prefer their own citizens, and either charge international students the same as in the U.S. (think 1/2 to 3/4 million dollars) or just flat out refuse international students altogether. Or you have the French medical education system, where admission is *free* but you have to be the top 10% to get the degree.

That is a very real problem that I am aware of. Most European countries have a clear preference for not only their own citizens, but just EU/EEC citizens in general. It is very annoying when I have to compete with a serious handicap that I would be placed in the "international" group, which is basically several billion people, with usually much less places than those allotted for EU citizens.

I remember when I applied to Canadian universities over a decade ago, it was restrictive that I remember that I applied to one university that only had one place for non-Canadians. At least most European countries are not that restrictive.

Rather, I would investigate which medical system fits your values. The book "Healing of America" by T.R. Reid convinced me to give up premed studies in the U.S. Later working as a medical technologist further confirmed my belief (except for nurses: they have a union here, they are visible, and they are treated very well). After some research, then focus on that country, and that language. My old anatomy and physiology instructor taught us "point economics"--focus on what would benefit you the most, and forget the smaller ones.

The medical system that most fits my values is Britain's NHS, founded on socialist principles. However, whilst I would have loved to emigrate to the UK a decade ago, and indeed I lived and studied there a decade ago, the UK are in horrific shape in many ways, and I have a new rule: I will never emigrate to any Anglophone countries.

The complete opposite of my values is clearly the for-profit capitalist US system, where I myself am suffering with my own healthcare right now at the hands of this evil system. Other systems in Europe that I do not really like would be Germany's, for example; too much private insurance. I would say the systems that I would prefer in Europe are any country's system where they have as little private insurance/private health schemes as possible, and as much government ownership or hospitals as possible. So no Switzerland, Germany, Austria, etc., although I never intended to emigrate to any of those countries in the first place. Perhaps France, but French universities must be very difficult to get into.

I would pick the country with the easiest med school for you to get into and then actually get in. Worry about the dual citizenship *after* you are a doctor. No it isn’t super easy to change countries as a doctor but it isn’t impossible. It has to be easier than learning a handful of disparate languages to a high level.

That sounds like a good idea too. I also have to help get my entire family (parents + girlfriend) out of California into Europe, so I would not mind studying in some country that I never wanted to live in forever, because I could just move away to a different one after graduating. Or just get EU citizenship in that country, and then all 27 would be unlocked anyway.