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Xmmm
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby Xmmm » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:47 pm

smallwhite wrote:
Xmmm wrote:Let's try again. These magic lists of 5000 wisely chosen words that are not frequency lists ... where do you get them?

Why did you say "that are not frequency lists"?

smallwhite wrote:16 days of reading in August and I have 1406 words looked up AND every single one Quizlet'ed. So a word is only ever unknown the first time I encounter it. The second time, I'd already know it. Alongside that, I also study word lists casually. So some words are already known before I encounter them in a book, and I can concentrate on their usage, or just move on and concentrate on other harder words. 55% of words learnt from reading and 45% from lists at the moment. 53 words/day so far and 2 hours/day including reading, card creation and revision, everything. 101 days in and I'm understanding 91-96% of the words in my fiction and 94% in my nonfiction.

Parallel reading also helps keep sanity.


I believe you said somewhere they were not frequency lists buy as you say, you post a loy. Don't think I can find the quote.

Lets say they are frequency lists. In your comment above you say you look at them casually. Does that mean they go into quizlet or not? And what words do you copy from the books you read in quizlet? All of them? Rustled, whispered, grimy, coy, frazzled, etc? Or only high frequent words you have seen several times ... but probably you would know them by then.

Again, you talk a lot about your method but provide few particulars. If I see frazzled in russian, does that go into quizlet or not? If I see positron emitter does that go into quizlet or not?

I'm the first to admit my current methods are not optimal and am happy to try new things ... but I still don't see any kind of recipe ... I see exhortations and very vague guidelines that could lead me into a swamp.

1. How many words do you have in quizlet for a language at the time you test b2?
2. What percentage are from a frequency list?
3. How do you determine what words that you read go into quizlet? Many words are rare right?

Right now your method seems like "do what I do ... just figure out what I do"

And if you want to leave it like that, that's fine. I just think it's weird that you are urging people to change their ways but refusing to provide an action plan ...
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Xmmm
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby Xmmm » Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:10 pm

Let me give an example of what is helpful. You say you get a 501 verb book and go through it. Okay cool ... I can do that, I can replicate that technique.

But your advice about quizlet and frequency lists and words picked from books is a jumble ... there are no steps, no procedure. I mean I'm sure you have one that you use, but as far as I know you haven't communicated it in a way that another person could reliably replicate.
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Xmmm
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby Xmmm » Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:44 am

I've been traveling for a few days. I did not lug modern russian with me nor did it seem convenient to do italIan FAST or Lernu on my phone.

Other than that, I think I've made a decent start at broadening out my practice. I've done some scriptorium, some shadowing, glossika, and quite a bit of clozemaster.

On the subject of clozemaster, I'm flying through esperanto because there only 12000 sentences and I chose to do the whole thing multiple choice. However, I can see now that italian and russian will take years to complete and master. I'm only at 2.5 percent played in russian and 0 percent mastered ... wow. It's a gigantic course or game or whatever it is.

I got the end of Обытаемый Остров in lingq ... only to find out it's not the actual end of the book .... grrr. There were 14 chapters and it felt like at least 50000 words ... but now I'm left hanging.

I'm going to go back through and try to read the 14 chapters out loud. I've done the first one.
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smallwhite
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby smallwhite » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:05 am

Xmmm wrote:What I think is odd is that you have a method that seems to work for you, and it is a method you recommend to others ... and at the same time you are very coy about all the operational details.

You seem to be a super logical person, so it's very weird to me that you would promote what sounds like a logical system to people, and provide almost no details to implement it.


(1) That's because I was not promoting what you thought I was promoting. I mention things, but I don't promote everything I mention.

(2) I have explained everything that I promote. You probably just didn't see the post or didn't understand my post. I have great difficulty explaining things to people. My friends say that I can only teach to people things that they already know. I don't understand why they don't understand what I say. I don't understand why they don't understand the textbook that I understand either. I failed to explain how having 5k flashcards doesn't mean having a vocabulary of 5k. You didn't even understand what I was promoting.

(3) You already have at least the whole internet, HTLAL and LLorg full of language-learning tips. Any further tips from me would only be for how to learn faster or how to achieve the same sooner, but from this thread and others, I get the impression that LLorg does not prefer to learn faster, despises the desire to learn faster, and thus does not need the further tips from me.

(4) I can post my tips anyway, but it takes me forever to write a post (this post took me over 1.5 hours to write) and I often get responses that I don't enjoy getting, so there's little incentive for me to just post my tips anyway. But still I have posted them anyway. You probably just didn't see them or didn't understand them. And I wouldn't know why you didn't understand them.

(5) I felt I was too preachy already but still I took the opportunity that was Xenop's thread Your Language Learning Strategy...In 50 Words or so and preached again my strategies. If you want any study advice from me, this is all you need. It looks super duper crystal clear and detailed to me, but I suspect no one else thinks so.

(6) That post answers every single question you asked me except this one:
> How many words do you have in quizlet for a language at the time you test b2?
3422 in Swedish and then 6393 in Dutch. (Online-tested B2 in reading and listening). Knew some German before that.
I'm not promoting my vocabulary method but that was a good question from you so I wanted to answer it anyway.
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Xmmm
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby Xmmm » Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:49 pm

As a native speaker of english, I suggest that you stop saying "you didn't understand" and replace it with "I probably wasn't clear." There is an implication in "you didn't understand" that the listener didn't understand because they were stupid.

Regarding methods, okay you are not promoting your vocabulary method. This is news to me. :)

If I were going to promote a method I would shamelessly copy iguanamon, write it up in a post, and put a link to that post in my signature. He doesn't seem to get hostile reactions for that.

And on the subject of how to describe a method, it's really quite simple. Here is my method for developing B1 reading skills in french

1. Sign up at lingvist.io
2. Do all the flashcards, all the listening, and all the reading exercises.
3. You are now a B1 reader

Here is my method for other languages

1. Do duolingo or Assimil halfheartedly
2. Go to lingq and start reading graded materials. For russian read at least one million words. For other languages take the Dialang test occasionally and stop reading when you hit B1

Now perhaps those are the dumbest methods ever. But I don't have any problem describing them concisely.

Which is why it troubles me that you cannot do so in response to a direct request. Because your English skills are fine. Which is why some accuse you of trolling. You don't seem to be a troll to me. I have a different theory.
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Xmmm
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby Xmmm » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:21 pm

It is probably too late to rejigger the Russian plan in any way that would allow reaching B2 level across all four skills in 1760 hours.

Nevertheless, better late than never. I read the Paul Nation book and WordBrain, so here is the new plan:

reading/listening: LingQ and TV
speaking/writing: glossika, scriptorium, Modern Russian drills
vocabulary/grammar: clozemaster, Modern Russian grammar notes
"fluency": timed repeated rereading out loud, rewatching the same shows over and over ... I don't know, this is a somewhat nebulous category

Theoretically 25% of time should be allocated to each box. In practice, that is really hard to do. It's much easier to watch TV for an hour than to do glossika for an hour.

On the subject of clozemaster, thumbs up and thanks again to Expugnator for mentioning it. It's better than memrise because of the quality of the material. It's better than anki ... again pretty much because of the quality of the material. You get a comprehensive, canned deck put together with some rhyme and reason that at least has TTS audio.

So the "end game" for Russian will look something like:

1. do all of Modern Russian
2. do all of Glossika
3. watch several hundred hours of TV
4. start Italki again in 2018 from the position of at least being able to say some things grammatically correctly
5. and for clozemaster, I don't see how you ever finish the Russian fluency fast track ... it is huge. So that would just turn into a fifteen minute a day maintenance task, I suppose.
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reineke
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby reineke » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:39 pm

Xmmm wrote:It is probably too late to rejigger the Russian plan in any way that would allow reaching B2 level across all four skills in 1760 hours.

Nevertheless, better late than never. I read the Paul Nation book and WordBrain, so here is the new plan:

reading/listening: LingQ and TV
speaking/writing: glossika, scriptorium, Modern Russian drills
vocabulary/grammar: clozemaster, Modern Russian grammar notes
"fluency": timed repeated rereading out loud, rewatching the same shows over and over ... I don't know, this is a somewhat nebulous category

Theoretically 25% of time should be allocated to each box. In practice, that is really hard to do. It's much easier to watch TV for an hour than to do glossika for an hour.




Fluency and Learning
Fluency Activities across the Four Skills

"Listening: Listening to stories that contain very few unknown items is an excellent way of developing listening fluency.

Speaking: The 4/3/2 technique has already been described. It combines the features of quantity of production (the speakers speak for a total of nine minutes), learner control over the topic and language used, repetition, and time pressure to reach a high rate of production through the decreasing amount of time available for each delivery."

"Research on this activity shows that the learners' speed of speaking increased during the talks (as measured by the number of words per minute), the hesitations they make decrease (as measured by hesitations per 100 words), and surprisingly their grammatical errors in the repeated parts of the talk decrease and they tend to use several, more complex grammatical constructions in the last of the three talks than they did in the first talk" (Nation, 1989, p. 381)."

"The best recording is a useful fluency activity involving a tape recorder.... The learner speaks on to the tape talking about previous experience or describing a picture or set of pictures. The learner listens to the recording noting any points where improvement could be made. Then the learner re-records the talk. This continues until the learner is happy with the recording. This technique can involve planning and encourages repetition through the setting of a quality-based goal."

"Reading: Speed reading and extensive reading of graded readers provide fluency improvement through the features of limited demands because of language control, and quantity of processing.
Repeated reading is one approach to developing fluency in reading (Dowhower, 1989; Rasinski, 1989). The learners read the same text several times. There are several ways of doing this. One way is to set the learners a new task to do each time so that each reading is for a different purpose."

"Writing: (8) Continuous writing is an activity where learners are given a set time (usually 5-10 minutes) to write with the aim of producing a large quantity of writing within the time."
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Xmmm
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby Xmmm » Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:02 pm

reineke wrote:
Xmmm wrote:It is probably too late to rejigger the Russian plan in any way that would allow reaching B2 level across all four skills in 1760 hours.

Nevertheless, better late than never. I read the Paul Nation book and WordBrain, so here is the new plan:

reading/listening: LingQ and TV
speaking/writing: glossika, scriptorium, Modern Russian drills
vocabulary/grammar: clozemaster, Modern Russian grammar notes
"fluency": timed repeated rereading out loud, rewatching the same shows over and over ... I don't know, this is a somewhat nebulous category

Theoretically 25% of time should be allocated to each box. In practice, that is really hard to do. It's much easier to watch TV for an hour than to do glossika for an hour.




Fluency and Learning
Fluency Activities across the Four Skills

"Listening: Listening to stories that contain very few unknown items is an excellent way of developing listening fluency.

Speaking: The 4/3/2 technique has already been described. It combines the features of quantity of production (the speakers speak for a total of nine minutes), learner control over the topic and language used, repetition, and time pressure to reach a high rate of production through the decreasing amount of time available for each delivery."

"Research on this activity shows that the learners' speed of speaking increased during the talks (as measured by the number of words per minute), the hesitations they make decrease (as measured by hesitations per 100 words), and surprisingly their grammatical errors in the repeated parts of the talk decrease and they tend to use several, more complex grammatical constructions in the last of the three talks than they did in the first talk" (Nation, 1989, p. 381)."

"The best recording is a useful fluency activity involving a tape recorder.... The learner speaks on to the tape talking about previous experience or describing a picture or set of pictures. The learner listens to the recording noting any points where improvement could be made. Then the learner re-records the talk. This continues until the learner is happy with the recording. This technique can involve planning and encourages repetition through the setting of a quality-based goal."

"Reading: Speed reading and extensive reading of graded readers provide fluency improvement through the features of limited demands because of language control, and quantity of processing.
Repeated reading is one approach to developing fluency in reading (Dowhower, 1989; Rasinski, 1989). The learners read the same text several times. There are several ways of doing this. One way is to set the learners a new task to do each time so that each reading is for a different purpose."

"Writing: (8) Continuous writing is an activity where learners are given a set time (usually 5-10 minutes) to write with the aim of producing a large quantity of writing within the time."


Thank you. Somewhere else in there he says you can read repeatedly out loud, and should shoot for 150 words a minute if you're reading out loud (and 250 if reading silently). So I am trying to do that. I'm up to 41 words a minute, but the narrator is doing it at 116 (with dramatic pauses, etc.).

I suppose I will try the continuous writing next. I'm hesitant to do any recordings until I'm producing the correct cases a little more frequently (via Modern Russian, etc). I think I can do better on case endings when I write than when I speak ... D- versus F maybe.
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reineke
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby reineke » Wed Aug 23, 2017 7:41 pm

I am interested in the theory but I likely won't do these exercises. I will also likely not use 5 percent of the resources I posted in the resources section of this forum. A Spanish-speaking friend came over yesterday and I had several hours of "fluency building". Things are a lot less nebulous if you're simply using the language.

PS I didn't mean to suggest that the exercises or other resources were useless. I just prefer to chill listening to languages.
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Xmmm
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Re: Островная крепость Хммм

Postby Xmmm » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:01 am

It's time to lock Russian down and bind myself with terrible oaths. The blog name has changed to reflect this. Some of these goals will take three months, some will take three years, and some are mutually contradictory. Nevertheless ...

I never broke TV and movies out as a separate category, so despite having watched maybe 300 hours of Russian media, the count starts from now. And since I'm restarting Glossika and Modern Russian and Italki, I'm restarting them all from zero. So be it.

This is about 2000 hours of new work.


: 3 / 36 Modern Russian
: 0 / 100 ClozeMaster Fast Track to Fluency Words Mastered
: 12 / 300 Glossika GSR
: 18533 / 50000 LingQ known words
: 9 / 1000 TV hours from 8/17
: 0 / 200 Italki hours
: 1085 / 1760 Total hours
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