elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

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elka
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby elka » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:03 pm

Wow, Cavesa, thank you so much for all the recommendations, I really appreciate them! :) and you are definitely not hijacking anything :)
I really like the Cpress one. For some reason, it didn't occur to me that Czech language courses can also be of good quality. I vaguely remember borrowing some sort of a Spanish textbook from the library years ago and it didn't really improve my Spanish much. Clearly things have changed. So again, thank you :)
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Cavesa
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby Cavesa » Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:47 pm

I see why you thought so. A small market necessarily means a narrower selection, not necessarily worse quality. In some cases, yes. For example, most Czech based French courses are bad (except for the main Leda series), they are more concerned with the typical prejudices (French is sooo hard and learners sooo stupid) than with solid teaching, I'd say. The Spanish courses are a newer thing, you probably know just as well as I do that the language has only been on the rise during the last two decades, having started from almost nothing. But the authors also draw the best from the "old fashioned" approach, they tend to know what they are doing, and they don't pretend the course is something else than it is. You're welcome, I'm glad my post was helpful and not a log hijack :-D

Btw, I've never had an opportunity to ask something with a similar set of "language learning beliefs" (I can't think of a better term), just regular learners or a japanologist: how do you like Japanese learning, as a Czech native? I spent just a few hours on the langauge, had to postpone it (not sure till when). Is it just my impression, or is the pronunciation rather straightforward and not too hard for a Czech native? And do you use a romaji or a different transcription to Latin during your learning? I guess that probably yes, but which one? The Czech traditional one is a bit different from the English one, and old and based on a long tradition of Japanology, but this was the first time I was worried that combining resources based in more than one langauge might actually complicate learning. What do you think?
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SCMT
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby SCMT » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:18 pm

Good luck, Elka. I look forward to following your log.

Your English writing is very good, by the way.
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elka
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby elka » Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:26 am

Cavesa wrote:I see why you thought so. A small market necessarily means a narrower selection, not necessarily worse quality. In some cases, yes. For example, most Czech based French courses are bad (except for the main Leda series), they are more concerned with the typical prejudices (French is sooo hard and learners sooo stupid) than with solid teaching, I'd say. The Spanish courses are a newer thing, you probably know just as well as I do that the language has only been on the rise during the last two decades, having started from almost nothing. But the authors also draw the best from the "old fashioned" approach, they tend to know what they are doing, and they don't pretend the course is something else than it is. You're welcome, I'm glad my post was helpful and not a log hijack :-D

Btw, I've never had an opportunity to ask something with a similar set of "language learning beliefs" (I can't think of a better term), just regular learners or a japanologist: how do you like Japanese learning, as a Czech native? I spent just a few hours on the langauge, had to postpone it (not sure till when). Is it just my impression, or is the pronunciation rather straightforward and not too hard for a Czech native? And do you use a romaji or a different transcription to Latin during your learning? I guess that probably yes, but which one? The Czech traditional one is a bit different from the English one, and old and based on a long tradition of Japanology, but this was the first time I was worried that combining resources based in more than one language might actually complicate learning. What do you think?


Thank you for your reply.

1 - Yes, that was precisely my impression of French learning materials in Czech as well :)

2 - Japanese pronunciation is fairly easy but you still have to learn the pronunciation of 40 syllables because while the syllable sounds are similar to Czech syllables, every syllable is pronounced a little differently or with a different cadence. It is not hard to learn, however. What will probably be hard down the line is a thing called "Japanese pitch accent". It is very important and seems to have complex rules and some exceptions which complicates matters quite a bit. I am however gonna say that Japanese pronunciation seems easier than French pronunciation.

3 - As for your second question, I do use romaji and I use the English version because that is how you type Japanese on a keyboard. Also I don't know how common it is for people on this forum but I actually prefer English (my second language) to Czech (my mother tongue). I mean Czech is a great language and I am happy that I know it but due to grammatical cases and conjugation, words change a lot and I've always found that a bit confusing, to be honest.

4 - As for you last question, I suppose it would complicate learning a little bit but not a lot. I mean imho when learning Japanese, different romaji transcription will be the least of your worries :lol: For instance, the word for to be in Japanese is です (desu), but the word not to be is ではありません (dewa-arimasen). This literally killed me when I learnt it :D Like, how? And why? Dear god.

If I may ask you a question, I've noticed you state your English to be on the C1 level, and your French on the C2 level. That is very uncommon in Czechia I'd say. Firstly, having both of these languages on a very high level and secondly better French than English. How did that come about? :)))
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elka
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby elka » Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:30 am

SCMT wrote:Good luck, Elka. I look forward to following your log.

Your English writing is very good, by the way.



Thank you very much, SCMT, really appreciate it :) Good luck with your language studies :)
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Cavesa
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby Cavesa » Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:14 pm

Thanks for wonderful answers!

3 - As for your second question, I do use romaji and I use the English version because that is how you type Japanese on a keyboard. Also I don't know how common it is for people on this forum but I actually prefer English (my second language) to Czech (my mother tongue). I mean Czech is a great language and I am happy that I know it but due to grammatical cases and conjugation, words change a lot and I've always found that a bit confusing, to be honest.


That's not unusual. I don't particularly love either Czech or English, they are just tools I use (people don't love their hammers, or screwdrivers either). But English is more practical for learning some languages, than starting with a Czech resource and then switching. In other cases, it's the opposite and combining various source languages can help. The goal is getting to the monolingual resources anyways at some point, but that's a longer and harder path for a Japanese learner. than most others

4 - As for you last question, I suppose it would complicate learning a little bit but not a lot. I mean imho when learning Japanese, different romaji transcription will be the least of your worries :lol: For instance, the word for to be in Japanese is です (desu), but the word not to be is ではありません (dewa-arimasen). This literally killed me when I learnt it :D Like, how? And why? Dear god.

Thanks. That really reassuring in a weird way :-D I got to this part too, when I was trying Japanese. If I manage to restart it seriously one day, it will definitely be a struggle. Facing it with a strong sense of humour probably helps :-D

If I may ask you a question, I've noticed you state your English to be on the C1 level, and your French on the C2 level. That is very uncommon in Czechia I'd say. Firstly, having both of these languages on a very high level and secondly better French than English. How did that come about? :)))

Many positive things are rather unusual in the Czech Republic (I don't use the other name of the country) :-D
I somehow always wanted to learn French, and was very resistent to opposition. The unfriendly school system that forced me me restart four times, the psychological bullying (not only by kids, but also by tons of annoying adults. Well, I proved that all their "well meant advice" was wrong :-D ), the discouraging myths everywhere. And I've allways been an autodidact, not dependent on the qualities of a teacher. I got my C1 English certificate after high school and never dreamt of more, I don't need C2 in this language. And I got a B2 French certificate at the same time. I took the C2 French exam in the middle of medschool, because I had to create a plan B, in case they'd kick me out. And I also had to prove myself I wasn't that stupid. They didn't kick me out in the end (to my great surprise), but I knew I definitely didn't want a residency in the czech hell, so now I am a doctor in France :-)

It could be much more usual, if only people stopped trusting teachers too much and were more ambitious. There are tons of clever people in the Czech Republic, they just suffer from an extremely unsupportive system.

After all, you are very exceptional too. You've taken on Japanese! And you're seriously learning it, you haven't just signed up for a group class.
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elka
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby elka » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:09 pm

Thanks a lot for your response :)

Cavesa wrote:That's not unusual. I don't particularly love either Czech or English, they are just tools I use (people don't love their hammers, or screwdrivers either). But English is more practical for learning some languages, than starting with a Czech resource and then switching. In other cases, it's the opposite and combining various source languages can help. The goal is getting to the monolingual resources anyways at some point, but that's a longer and harder path for a Japanese learner. than most others


I completely agree.

Cavesa wrote: Thanks. That really reassuring in a weird way :-D I got to this part too, when I was trying Japanese. If I manage to restart it seriously one day, it will definitely be a struggle. Facing it with a strong sense of humour probably helps :-D

It sure does. I mean what else can we do when facing obstacles other than laugh and then try harder? Thinking in a pessimistic way doesn't help anyone, on the contrary actually. That is at least my mindset. A positive mindset is what I believe differentiates a successful learner from an unsuccessful one. To a certain extent, anyone can become fluent in any language they choose BUT only when they believe they can do it.

Cavesa wrote:Many positive things are rather unusual in the Czech Republic (I don't use the other name of the country) :-D
I somehow always wanted to learn French, and was very resistent to opposition. The unfriendly school system that forced me me restart four times, the psychological bullying (not only by kids, but also by tons of annoying adults. Well, I proved that all their "well meant advice" was wrong :-D ), the discouraging myths everywhere. And I've allways been an autodidact, not dependent on the qualities of a teacher. I got my C1 English certificate after high school and never dreamt of more, I don't need C2 in this language. And I got a B2 French certificate at the same time. I took the C2 French exam in the middle of medschool, because I had to create a plan B, in case they'd kick me out. And I also had to prove myself I wasn't that stupid. They didn't kick me out in the end (to my great surprise), but I knew I definitely didn't want a residency in the czech hell, so now I am a doctor in France :-)

Hahaha :D I merely tried to be in when saying Czechia. I mean that's what the cool kids say these days, isn't it?
I can imagine the pressure. Growing up everyone always said French is way too hard to learn. Perhaps those people should try Japanese :D It is really impressive what you achieved on your own. I can completely relate as I not only prefer learning on my own, I am almost unable to learn in a classroom environment. As for the "Czech hell" part - I mean, it is what it is. I actually think living in Prague could be rather pleasant apart from the real estate crisis in the recent years. As for the other regions, well, I try to look at the positive side of things and it really has been changing in recent years. I sometimes can't believe how a lot of young people are very open-minded. I'd say Czechia is changing and it is for the better :)

Cavesa wrote:It could be much more usual, if only people stopped trusting teachers too much and were more ambitious. There are tons of clever people in the Czech Republic, they just suffer from an extremely unsupportive system.

After all, you are very exceptional too. You've taken on Japanese! And you're seriously learning it, you haven't just signed up for a group class.

Oh, thank you very much for the compliment :) and I completely agree that people in Czechia don't approach learning languages well. Most people, when they want to learn a language, sign up for a group class and they expect the teacher is going to teach them the language and they do little work outside of class.
I also feel like it is important to mention that I certainly TALK more about learning Japanese than I actually study it :lol: I should definitely work on that (note to myself).
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Cavesa
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby Cavesa » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:44 pm

Hahaha :D I merely tried to be in when saying Czechia. I mean that's what the cool kids say these days, isn't it?
I can imagine the pressure. Growing up everyone always said French is way too hard to learn. Perhaps those people should try Japanese :D It is really impressive what you achieved on your own. I can completely relate as I not only prefer learning on my own, I am almost unable to learn in a classroom environment. As for the "Czech hell" part - I mean, it is what it is. I actually think living in Prague could be rather pleasant apart from the real estate crisis in the recent years. As for the other regions, well, I try to look at the positive side of things and it really has been changing in recent years. I sometimes can't believe how a lot of young people are very open-minded. I'd say Czechia is changing and it is for the better :)


I don't think it's cool, it's just a name that was pushed upon us without any proper public discussion, and which sounds stupid (and gets confused with Chechnya), in my opinion.

No idea, why people believe that "French is too hard" and that "English is easy". Including those speaking neither. It is the opposite, I'd say, you just need to not believe the propaganda. What second foreign language did you take? Spanish? It's so great Spanish gets much more attention these days, than when I was a child. It is definitely worth it.

Do you tell people you're learning Japanese? Perhaps you'll get a fair share of "well meant advice" too :-D I totally agree with your assessment of the mainstream learners.

I loved living in Prague, I miss it very much. Living there and working in a different field, yes that could be great. But not as a young doctor, that is the hell I meant. The Czech Republic is not changing for the better, I'm afraid, but I have hope that it will be forced to, now. It would be nice to return to Prague one day (no, I am not even considering the villages), if the country finally catches up with the better ones. I miss the city, it is really one of the best places to live in Europe, despite its flaws. But for now, getting a real medical education, having good work conditions, and learning up to date medicine simply has to be the priority. And that is not possible there.
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dampingwire
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby dampingwire » Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:30 pm

elka wrote:For instance, the word for to be in Japanese is です (desu), but the word not to be is ではありません (dewa-arimasen). This literally killed me when I learnt it :D


ではありません is *one* way of saying it ...

elka wrote:Like, how? And why? Dear god.


I know part of the why but I'm not sure it helps in the beginning. Just keep an eye out for the patterns and remember that the things you learn in the textbooks, especially the things at the beginning, are correct, but almost never the whole truth.

It does get easier adn less surprising. Eventually :-)
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elka
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby elka » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:25 pm

Cavesa wrote:I don't think it's cool, it's just a name that was pushed upon us without any proper public discussion, and which sounds stupid (and gets confused with Chechnya), in my opinion.

No idea, why people believe that "French is too hard" and that "English is easy". Including those speaking neither. It is the opposite, I'd say, you just need to not believe the propaganda. What second foreign language did you take? Spanish? It's so great Spanish gets much more attention these days, than when I was a child. It is definitely worth it.

Do you tell people you're learning Japanese? Perhaps you'll get a fair share of "well meant advice" too :-D I totally agree with your assessment of the mainstream learners.

I loved living in Prague, I miss it very much. Living there and working in a different field, yes that could be great. But not as a young doctor, that is the hell I meant. The Czech Republic is not changing for the better, I'm afraid, but I have hope that it will be forced to, now. It would be nice to return to Prague one day (no, I am not even considering the villages), if the country finally catches up with the better ones. I miss the city, it is really one of the best places to live in Europe, despite its flaws. But for now, getting a real medical education, having good work conditions, and learning up to date medicine simply has to be the priority. And that is not possible there.


1 - I don't think it is a stupid name however you are right there wasn't any public discussion about the change of the name.

2 - I have to admit I was influenced by the people saying French is too hard so I chose Spanish because everyone said Spanish is easy (it actually isn't all that easy). I have a bit of a trauma from attending the Spanish classes at grammar school, to be honest. I really am a slow learner and I was always the last one to get something grammar wise. Thankfully I can learn Spanish at my own pace now :)

3 - I told a couple of my closest friends/relatives and their reactions were a) "WHY?" and b) "you are crazy for learning Japanese" and c) "you will never learn it because it is too hard". Very uplifting indeed :D I can somehow understand why they might think Japanese is hard but what surprised me was that people said similar comments about me learning Spanish. I usually wake up around 5:30 am to study for a bit before work (on weekends too because I like to keep a rigid sleeping schedule) and people really aren't getting it.

4 - I see, I wasn't aware of this. Sounds like you made the right choice :)
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