elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

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elka
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby elka » Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:31 pm

dampingwire wrote:
elka wrote:For instance, the word for to be in Japanese is です (desu), but the word not to be is ではありません (dewa-arimasen). This literally killed me when I learnt it :D


ではありません is *one* way of saying it ...

elka wrote:Like, how? And why? Dear god.


I know part of the why but I'm not sure it helps in the beginning. Just keep an eye out for the patterns and remember that the things you learn in the textbooks, especially the things at the beginning, are correct, but almost never the whole truth.

It does get easier adn less surprising. Eventually :-)


Thank you for reading my log :) Eventually is gonna be like 10 years for me :D Seems like you are way ahead of me on the Japanese learning journey. What motivates you to continue to study Japanese, if I may ask? :)
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Cavesa
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby Cavesa » Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:54 pm

elka wrote:2 - I have to admit I was influenced by the people saying French is too hard so I chose Spanish because everyone said Spanish is easy (it actually isn't all that easy). I have a bit of a trauma from attending the Spanish classes at grammar school, to be honest. I really am a slow learner and I was always the last one to get something grammar wise. Thankfully I can learn Spanish at my own pace now :)

3 - I told a couple of my closest friends/relatives and their reactions were a) "WHY?" and b) "you are crazy for learning Japanese" and c) "you will never learn it because it is too hard". Very uplifting indeed :D I can somehow understand why they might think Japanese is hard but what surprised me was that people said similar comments about me learning Spanish. I usually wake up around 5:30 am to study for a bit before work (on weekends too because I like to keep a rigid sleeping schedule) and people really aren't getting it.

4 - I see, I wasn't aware of this. Sounds like you made the right choice :)


2.Yes, this is a common influence. And for some weird reason, even the French teachers tend to spread this. And they tend to be of much worse quality, than the German and Spanish ones, so I guess it is a confidence preserving mechanism in many caes. The language classes at school are a trauma for most people, even though in various ways. You are great, you've overcome it and are now learnig Spanish. And you'll succeed and get much better at it, than vast majority of your "faster" former classmates. At the age of 15, I was the last person anybody would guess would learn a foreign language to a high level. And I am doing just fine now. So will you.

3.Those are some fun reactions. :-D But don't worry, nobody will be unpleasant anymore, once you can prove any kind of success (and it will be sooner than you think). Just having fun with the language is already such a success. I envy you the sleep pattern and I am not even ashamed to admit that :-D . I am naturally an owl (or perhaps a bat. sometimes a salamander). So, if you can use that time for studying, it is awesome.
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elka
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby elka » Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:19 pm

Cavesa wrote:2.Yes, this is a common influence. And for some weird reason, even the French teachers tend to spread this. And they tend to be of much worse quality, than the German and Spanish ones, so I guess it is a confidence preserving mechanism in many caes. The language classes at school are a trauma for most people, even though in various ways. You are great, you've overcome it and are now learnig Spanish. And you'll succeed and get much better at it, than vast majority of your "faster" former classmates. At the age of 15, I was the last person anybody would guess would learn a foreign language to a high level. And I am doing just fine now. So will you.

3.Those are some fun reactions. :-D But don't worry, nobody will be unpleasant anymore, once you can prove any kind of success (and it will be sooner than you think). Just having fun with the language is already such a success. I envy you the sleep pattern and I am not even ashamed to admit that :-D . I am naturally an owl (or perhaps a bat. sometimes a salamander). So, if you can use that time for studying, it is awesome.


I think you are right about the teachers. Some of my classmates from grammar school studied French in elementary school and according to them the teacher was essentially learning with them and was about 1 chapter in a French textbook ahead of the students. I mean this is probably exaggerated (at least I hope so) but they did say most of their teachers weren't all that good.

Thank you for all the encouragement :) Actually, I have bought a Spanish textbook from Cpress as per your recommendation and it is rather good. It isn't trying to be "fun and easy" and it gets more advanced fairly quickly. So thank you again :)
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dampingwire
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby dampingwire » Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:23 pm

elka wrote:What motivates you to continue to study Japanese, if I may ask? :)


I hate giving up :-)

Also I'm genuinely interested and I do want to get to the stage where I can read something or listen to something and understand it with as little effort as possible.
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新完全マスター N2聴解 : 94 / 103新完全マスター N2読解 : 99 / 177
新完全マスター N2文法 : 197 / 197TY Comp. German : 0 / 389

elka
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby elka » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:59 am

Another week. Another log. In short, Japanese good, Spanish ok, English bad.

Japanese
Japanese is not so foreign to me anymore and I am starting to get the hand of hiragana and katakana. I even know a couple of Kanji characters. Like チェコ人 and 私. I also found a great textbook, surprisingly with Czech as the teaching language, and I am getting through it. I guess the first initial 1,5 month was spent in complete and utter shock by the complexity of Japanese and how it is so different from any language I know but the shock is over thankfully and now I can focus on improving my Japanese skillz.

Spanish
I also found a good textbook (as recommended by Cavesa) and I am getting through it. I have taken several different proficiency tests because I wanted to know what my level is, since it doesn't seem to be A1. I got several different results. I even got B2 (low) on glossika. From all of those tests I figured that my passive skills are perhaps around B1 (?), but what I really have to work on, is grammar. That certainly could be on the A1 level. Verb conjugations, articles, prepositions... I am kind of lost. I am at that lower intermediate plateau I guess, hopefully, it won't last for very long.

English
Oh, my beloved English. I am frustrated with it atm. I'd say I am on a rather advanced level, I can use some advanced words, I know quite a bit of grammar and I understand almost everything I hear (radio, TV shows, youtube videos) BUT everything (pronunciation, expressing myself orally and verbally...) is just a little bit (or sometimes more) off. What I mean by it is that it is not that C2 level. I think I am on my way to it but it is for sure gonna be a long ride because there is still sooo much to learn. I am a little bit overwhelmed, to be honest.
I have been focusing on pronunciation lately. I want to have an RP accent so I am practicing with an app called Get rid of your English every day for about 30 minutes by reading a book at loud. While I am progressing, it is gonna also take a long time to get just right. I still haven't figured out how to make that ghastly TH sound :cry: I have read exactly what I should be doing with my breath, mouth, and teeth while doing this sound, I have seen it illustrated in a picture and I have seen a video of someone demonstrating how to pronounce the sound. I still can't get it right. Upsetting. Some of the readers of this log might argue that it is highly unlikely that I can learn to speak with a native-like accent but I know it CAN be done because my aunt has done it. She speaks with an RP and nobody can tell she isn't from England. She also started learning English when she was about 16 years old. So no excuses. :)

I would like to mention that I am documenting my language learning journey on Instagram. If you want to read about my noncomplishments 7 times a week, you can follow me @elkalanguagenerd
Last edited by elka on Sun Apr 12, 2020 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SCMT
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby SCMT » Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:11 pm

elka wrote:I still haven't figured out how to make that ghastly TH sound :cry: I have read exactly what I should be doing with my breath, mouth, and teeth while doing this sound, I have seen it illustrated in a picture and I have seen a video of someone demonstrating how to pronounce the sound. I still can't get it right.



Just out of curiosity, which "TH"sound? Is it th as in that or th as in think?

As a native speaker, I am aware of certain sounds that are pronounced differently by second language speakers, but I really haven't given much thought to where the problem areas lie.
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elka
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby elka » Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:54 am

SCMT wrote:
elka wrote:I still haven't figured out how to make that ghastly TH sound :cry: I have read exactly what I should be doing with my breath, mouth, and teeth while doing this sound, I have seen it illustrated in a picture and I have seen a video of someone demonstrating how to pronounce the sound. I still can't get it right.



Just out of curiosity, which "TH"sound? Is it th as in that or th as in think?

As a native speaker, I am aware of certain sounds that are pronounced differently by second-language speakers, but I really haven't given much thought to where the problem areas lie.


Thank you for reading my log :) Both TH sounds are problematic for me and also quite a bit of other foreign language learners. I reckon it is because pronouncing TH requires to put one's tongue between one's top and bottom teeth while flexing the tongue (it shouldn't be relaxed) and that is not...not sure what the right word is..comfortable perhaps? It just feels a little weird. I actually think I got the TH (the one in think) right a couple of times yesterday evening and I have found that one needs to be pressing on the top teeth slightly more than on the bottom teeth but not too much. Getting the isolated sound right is one thing but saying it in a sentence fluently is proving to be rather tough. I am at that stage where I read a sentence "(word) (word) (word) *pause* clumsy TH *pause* (word) (word) (word)...". However, I am sure it will improve with practice :)
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SCMT
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby SCMT » Sat Apr 11, 2020 4:59 pm

elka wrote:
SCMT wrote:
elka wrote:I still haven't figured out how to make that ghastly TH sound :cry: I have read exactly what I should be doing with my breath, mouth, and teeth while doing this sound, I have seen it illustrated in a picture and I have seen a video of someone demonstrating how to pronounce the sound. I still can't get it right.



Just out of curiosity, which "TH"sound? Is it th as in that or th as in think?

As a native speaker, I am aware of certain sounds that are pronounced differently by second-language speakers, but I really haven't given much thought to where the problem areas lie.


Thank you for reading my log :) Both TH sounds are problematic for me and also quite a bit of other foreign language learners. I reckon it is because pronouncing TH requires to put one's tongue between one's top and bottom teeth while flexing the tongue (it shouldn't be relaxed) and that is not...not sure what the right word is..comfortable perhaps? It just feels a little weird. I actually think I got the TH (the one in think) right a couple of times yesterday evening and I have found that one needs to be pressing on the top teeth slightly more than on the bottom teeth but not too much. Getting the isolated sound right is one thing but saying it in a sentence fluently is proving to be rather tough. I am at that stage where I read a sentence "(word) (word) (word) *pause* clumsy TH *pause* (word) (word) (word)...". However, I am sure it will improve with practice :)


I know nothing about Czech, but I do know German speakers often pronounce the soft th (like than) with a z sound. The sounds actually are pretty similar, only the tongue is a bit further forward for th. And yes, I am sitting at home going zzzzzz tttttttthhhhhhhh zzzzzz tttthhhh right now while trying to pay attention to my mouth shape. My children think I have gone crazy.

And I am sure you are correct that practice will cure this, and I believe that there is a high probability that it isn't as big of a problem as you think it is. Anyway, best if luck in your improvement, and know that you are most likely better than you believe. From your writing I would think you are a native English speaker.

And I enjoy reading your log, so thank you for posting it!
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Cavesa
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby Cavesa » Sat Apr 11, 2020 7:01 pm

SCMT wrote:...


Yes, TH in both words is a very typical problem for the Czech natives. "Think" is worse. If you want to very easily mock the typical Czech pronuncation of English, you can start from "I sink". The German Z doesn't solve it. We have the same Z too, and if overdone, use of it in English would sound just as stupid. But "I zink" is less funny than "I sink". :-D The real consonant is somewhere between "S" and "F".

I suppose elka is already very good, well beyond the beginner's exercises, just trying to polish everything to perfection. Which is hard. Perhaps Speechling could help? Or repeating closely after natives, one sentence at a time. For example Sherlock might be good material. Or the Queen's speech might be easier and she is by definition the best English speaker in the world. :-) If she makes a mistake, it's not her mistake, it is the whole Commonwealth that's wrong :-D
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dampingwire
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Re: elka's log - Japanese, English, Spanish - doing the impossible

Postby dampingwire » Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:01 pm

Cavesa wrote:Or the Queen's speech might be easier and she is by definition the best English speaker in the world.


That depends on whose definition you choose to accept ... anyway she's been slipping lately :-)
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新完全マスター N2聴解 : 94 / 103新完全マスター N2読解 : 99 / 177
新完全マスター N2文法 : 197 / 197TY Comp. German : 0 / 389


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