Snowflake's Mandarin Log - Continued

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Re: Snowflake's Mandarin Log - Continued

Postby snowflake » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:17 pm

Quick update...

Discovered that I do not need to send thank you's for the Chinese who sent well wishes etc for the funeral.....HUGE relief given all the traditional character handwritten notes that we got. It's considered bad luck to get a follow up to the funeral.

This weeks class assignment has me in a slight tizzy...3 speeches to prepare on 1) population, 2) ethnic groups, and 3) governmental administrative units (provinces, SARs, directly governed cities like Beijing and Shanghai). Usually there is only 1 speech to prepare, plus I'll be away on business for a few days which will cut into the time available to work on these. Next week the class will do more writing and less listening comprehension work for a while.

I am running into more of what seems to be mainland and Taiwanese usage differences....mind is in a slight fog so will have to see how well those get documented.
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Re: Snowflake's Mandarin Log - Continued

Postby snowflake » Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:10 pm

I'm doing some head banging due to motivation issues.

Turns out yesterday that no one had time to prep the AP class homework on population, ethnic groups, and governmental administrative units. So the instructor gave handouts on governmental administrative units, talked through that, then had us ad hoc talk about all the topics.

This weeks homework is on the 4 great works. Using Pleco, here's what the OCR extracted from our text book;

《红楼梦》
《红楼梦》的作者是清朝伟大的文学家曹雪芹 《红楼梦》通过对-个封建贵族大家庭的变化的描写,揭露了中国封建社会末期的黑暗及矛盾,从而展示出封建社会必然走向灭亡的历史命运。作品结构规模宏大、内容丰富,代表了中国古典小说艺术的最高成就。《红楼梦》对后世的影响深远。
《红楼梦》中主要人物是贾宝玉。贾宝玉是贾家的嫡派子孙,也是这个大家庭寄予希望的继承人。虽然宝玉生活在封建的大家庭中,但是他看不起功名利禄,不愿意走‘‘学而优则仕’,的道路。他轻视世俗的男性,尊重社会下层的女性。他背离封建家庭给他安排的人生道路,要求婚姻自主。虽然与林黛玉的爱情最终以悲剧收场,但是体现了贾宝玉的叛逆性格。小说的另一主要人物是林黛玉。林黛玉聪明美丽、天真率直、才华横溢。她从小失去父母,寄居于贾家。虽然贾母对她非常疼爱,但清高、自尊的性格使她变得多愁善感。她与宝玉有共同的理想和志趣。她深爱宝玉,但受到封建礼教的约束,不能表白,在宝玉结婚之日郁郁而死。《红楼梦》的男女主人公受时代的局限没有找到现实生活的出路 他们要摆脱封建社会的建制,但又不得不依靠贵族阶级生活这使他们的思想性格具有悲剧性的矛盾。

《三国演义》
明代通俗小说家罗贯中的《三国演义》描写了从东汉到西晋的历史故事,尤其集中描写了魏、蜀、吴三国的斗争,为人们提供了…幅;卡富多彩的历史人物的形象图。
小说中诸葛亮的形象最为突出,在读者心中留下了深刻印象,成为家喻户晓、妇孺皆知的人物,受到世人的喜爱和推崇。由诸葛亮产生的成语、俗语数不胜数。如当人们夸奖别人聪明时,往往称其为“赛诸葛”、“小诸葛’’或者说“三个臭皮匠,合成一个诸葛亮”。人们把诸葛亮看成了智慧的化身。
据小说描述,蜀汉开国皇帝刘备听说诸葛亮很有才识,就带着礼物去他家请他出山。那一天正好诸葛亮不在家,只能失望而归。不久,刘备义和关羽、张飞冒着大风雪第二次去请,没想到诸葛亮还不在家。又过了一段时间,刘备吃了三天素,第三次探访诸葛亮。到他家时,诸葛亮正在睡觉。刘备没有惊动他,直到他醒来才坐下跟他谈话。诸葛亮见刘备态度诚恳,就与他分析犬下形势。听完诸葛亮的分析,刘备非常敬佩,恳请诸葛亮出l」」,帮助他完成夫业。诸葛亮见刘备心胸开阔,礼贤下士,抱负远大,于是答应了刘备的诸求。《三顾茅庐》的典故就是由此而来的。

《水浒传》
生活在元末明初的文学家施耐庵写的《水浒传》被认为是中国英雄传奇作品中的典范,也是中国第一部反映民众反抗斗争的长篇小说。《水浒传》以其独有的艺术的形式真实地反映了封建社会的黑暗,揭示了官逼民反的社会现实。小说以口语为基础语言,显示了浓厚的生活气息。
武松是《水浒传》中的重要人物之一。他从小就练习武功,技艺高强。有一次,武松在回家探望哥哥的途中,在一个酒店喝了很多酒后,在路旁的一块大石头上躺下,刚要睡着的时候,忽然听到一阵狂风呼啸,与此同时,一只猛虎朝他凶猛地扑了过来。武松急忙闪开,躲到了老虎的背后。老虎纵身一跳,武松又躲开了。老虎气急败坏地大吼一声,用它的尾巴向武松抽来,武松又一次地躲开了,并趁老虎转身的时候举起棍棒,用足力气朝老虎的头部打去。当老虎又一次地朝武松扑来时,武松机警地扔掉棍棒,灵敏地骑到虎背上,抓住老虎的头猛烈打击,直到把它打死为止。武松打虎的故事流传至今,武松也从此威名大震。

《西游记》
《西游记》的作者是明代的吴承恩。小说根据唐代玄奘和尚取经的故事,用神性、人性和物性三者合一的方式讲述故事,塑造形象。小说通过丰富的艺术想象,塑造了一个神话世界和一个个栩栩如生的文学形象。小说的语言是在口语的基础上加工而成的,富于表现力。
《西游记》的主要人物孙悟空给人们留下深刻的印象。孙悟空善良、活泼、顽皮、乐观,非常注重名誉。他第一次打出天门就是因为被封的官衔太小,让他脸上无光。第二次大闹天宫也是因为齐天大圣的官职有名无实,让他气恼。在跟随唐僧取经的途中,他常因顾全名誉而与他人决斗。除了好名以外,孙悟空还勇敢机智、争强好斗。他的敢争、敢拼、敢斗的反抗性格在大闹天宫、三打白骨精、大闹黑风山等故事情节中被形象地描述出来。孙悟空有勇、有谋,在取经途中铲除妖魔鬼怪,救助贫民百姓,克服种种困难,终于完成任务。《西游记》的故事告诉我们:在漫漫的人生道路上,才孓可能是一帆风顺的。要像孙悟空一样,为追求自己的理想而努力奋斗。

My habit is to grab the text as seen above then compare it to the book, making corrections as needed.

We've started doing writing. We were given 15 minutes to write a story based on 4 pictures in the textbook. The 4 pictures were like a comic strip.

Another of what appears to be a mainland/Taiwanese Mandarin usage difference.....
大约; in Taiwan this has to be used when you know something will happen...the plane probably will land in 10 minutes. You know that the plane has to come down to the ground at some point.
大概; in Taiwan this is used if you're unsure whether something will happen...Ralph will probably buy that laptop. You think Ralph will buy it but he might not. 大概 seems to be the preferred word for mainlanders.
Mainlanders apparently do not make a definition distinction between 大约 vs 大概 though the latter seems to be the preferred word to use.

I need to get back to chorusing the Glossika material. Today is the last day to buy their older MP3 based material. I considered getting a custom package with mainland and Taiwanese Mandarin together and also thought about the business intro. For me the draw of Glossika is the drilling inherent in the GSR clips which includes variations on how to say the same thing. I don't like to spend time modifying audio clips, etc.
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Re: Snowflake's Mandarin Log - Continued

Postby smallwhite » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:31 am

snowflake wrote:《红楼梦》
《三国演义》
《水浒传》
《西游记》
My habit is to grab the text as seen above then compare it to the book, making corrections as needed.

That's amazing! I've only read excerpts from those 4 books and they're far too difficult for me.
snowflake wrote:Another of what appears to be a mainland/Taiwanese Mandarin usage difference.....
大约; in Taiwan this has to be used when you know something will happen...the plane probably will land in 10 minutes. You know that the plane has to come down to the ground at some point.
大概; in Taiwan this is used if you're unsure whether something will happen...Ralph will probably buy that laptop. You think Ralph will buy it but he might not. 大概 seems to be the preferred word for mainlanders.
Mainlanders apparently do not make a definition distinction between 大约 vs 大概 though the latter seems to be the preferred word to use.

The red parts don't look right to me. Do you have example sentences?
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Re: Snowflake's Mandarin Log - Continued

Postby snowflake » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:58 pm

smallwhite wrote: That's amazing! I've only read excerpts from those 4 books and they're far too difficult for me.

Uh, think that I gave the wrong impression about the 4 great novels assignment.  We don't have to read them for the next class, we have to be able to talk about them...when the books were written, who the authors are, their importance, etc.  The textbook blurbs are difficult for all the students in class, including me.  I OCR those to use as a foundation/jumping off point in preparing my talk.

smallwhite wrote: The red parts don't look right to me. Do you have example sentences?

The example and explanation mentioned for 大约 is what my Taiwanese iTalki instructor gave.  What specifically isn't making sense?  The AP class instructor (Beijing person) used 大概 when talking about China's population referencing census information.  So I asked about 大约 vs 大概 specifically mentioning knowing something is true/will happen compared to not knowing. She did not make the same distinction as my instructor from Taiwan, preferred using 大概 though said 大约 can also be used.  I know that she humors my Taiwanese usage.  It's hard for me sometimes to distinguish between mainland and Taiwanese usage since
1...mainland China has many regional variations
2...the local Mandarin speaking community is mixed so people here have adapted
An exception is when I'm in Taiwan as my friends there are very specific about corrections. 
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Re: Snowflake's Mandarin Log - Continued

Postby snowflake » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:00 am

BalancingAct, thank you for the correction about 动怒.
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Re: Snowflake's Mandarin Log - Continued

Postby smallwhite » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:55 am

snowflake wrote:
snowflake wrote:Another of what appears to be a mainland/Taiwanese Mandarin usage difference.....
大约; in Taiwan this has to be used when you know something will happen...the plane probably will land in 10 minutes. You know that the plane has to come down to the ground at some point.
大概; in Taiwan this is used if you're unsure whether something will happen...Ralph will probably buy that laptop. You think Ralph will buy it but he might not. 大概 seems to be the preferred word for mainlanders.
Mainlanders apparently do not make a definition distinction between 大约 vs 大概 though the latter seems to be the preferred word to use.
smallwhite wrote: The red parts don't look right to me. Do you have example sentences?

The example and explanation mentioned for 大约 is what my Taiwanese iTalki instructor gave.  What specifically isn't making sense?  The AP class instructor (Beijing person) used 大概 when talking about China's population referencing census information.  So I asked about 大约 vs 大概 specifically mentioning knowing something is true/will happen compared to not knowing. She did not make the same distinction as my instructor from Taiwan, preferred using 大概 though said 大约 can also be used.

What specifically: I have underlined the parts that I do not agree with. I suspect that you have misunderstood the word(s) and/or your tutors' explanations. Or maybe I misunderstood what you wrote just like I did with the other part of your post. I need to see your 2 example sentences to be sure or to tell you what exactly I don't agree with.
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Re: Snowflake's Mandarin Log - Continued

Postby snowflake » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:15 pm

Had to convert the below 2 sentences all be in simplified so if something looks odd, it’s probably because a mistake was made while doing that….. I do assignments in simplified and my iTalki instructor usually responds using traditional characters. This is by agreement and is part of my effort to keep up with both types of characters. Anyhow, these are examples where 大概 should not be used and were part of a presentation that I gave. The final version was polished by my instructor;
• 今年在____有大约75到80 个孩子来参加
• 但是有大约10 多个家長则表明因为不喜欢____,所以不愿意让他们的孩子再参加____。


The AP class instructor used 大概 in talking about the population statistics below which is from a blurb in our textbook. I don’t remember which particular statistic she was referring to at that time. Since she was talking about known facts, I posed the question about 大概and 大约.
根据2010年第六次全国人口普查结果,中国人口总数为13.7亿。同2000年
的第五次人口普查相比,增长了5.84%。目前,中国仍是世界上人口最多的国
家,约占世界总人口的20%。中国人口分布不均衡,东部沿海地区人口密集,
西部高原地区人口稀少。在性别比例上,男性人口占总人口的51.27%,女性人口
占48.73%。居住在城镇的人口占总人口的49%,跟2000年相比:上升了
13.5%。从2000年到2010年,是中国人口从农村向城市转移速度最快的10年。
目前,城乡人口比例基本持平。在人口年龄段的划分上,60岁以上的人口占人
口总数的11.3%,标志着中国已经成为世界上老年人最多的国家。
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Re: Snowflake's Mandarin Log - Continued

Postby smallwhite » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:09 am

snowflake wrote:Another of what appears to be a mainland/Taiwanese Mandarin usage difference.....
大约; in Taiwan this has to be used when you know something will happen...the plane probably will land in 10 minutes. You know that the plane has to come down to the ground at some point.
大概; in Taiwan this is used if you're unsure whether something will happen...Ralph will probably buy that laptop. You think Ralph will buy it but he might not. 大概 seems to be the preferred word for mainlanders.
Mainlanders apparently do not make a definition distinction between 大约 vs 大概 though the latter seems to be the preferred word to use.

Thanks for posting the original sentences.

(Eg1) 今年在____有大约75到80 个孩子来参加 = This year, approximately 75 to 80 kids participated.
(Eg2) 但是有大约10 多个家長则表明因为不喜欢____, = But because approximately 10 parents weren't happy,

In the 2 example sentences above and thus in your original example (10 minutes), "大约" means "approximately", and whether you know something will happen or not is irrelevant. "Approximately" is one meaning of "大约" (and of "大概").

In your "Ralph will probably buy that laptop" example, on the other hand, "大概" means "probably". "Probably" is one meaning of "大概" (and of "大约").

That is, both "大约" and "大概" can mean both "approximately" and "probably" - depending on where they are placed in the sentence (before a number for "approximately" and next to a verb for "probably", in general).

Your original sentence about the plane landing, however, seemed to have mixed up the 2 meanings:
大约; in Taiwan this has to be used when you know something will happen...the plane probably will land in 10 minutes. You know that the plane has to come down to the ground at some point.
You made no mention of "approximately" 10 minutes here. Yet your actual example sentences (about the 75 kids and the 10 parents) show that you are actually referring to the "approximately" meaning. Under this meaning, the plane sentence means "the plan will land in approximately 10 minutes" instead of "the plane probably will land in 10 minutes". And just like in English, you can use any one of "approximately/around/about/circa/大約/大概 10 mins" regardless of how sure you are that the plane will eventually land at some point.
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Re: Snowflake's Mandarin Log - Continued

Postby snowflake » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:27 am

I had a long conversation with my overseas Taiwanese chat partner about 大概 and 大约 mentioning the plane landing example as well as the 2 sentences about number of children participating. He agrees with my Taiwanese instructor that if I'm pretty sure about details (the numbers in the examples) or that something will happen then 大约 technically should be used. That said, he also mentioned the definition difference isn't huge so that most people wouldn't fuss if the wrong one was used.
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Re: Snowflake's Mandarin Log - Continued

Postby smallwhite » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:18 am

snowflake wrote:I had a long conversation with my overseas Taiwanese chat partner about 大概 and 大约 mentioning the plane landing example as well as the 2 sentences about number of children participating. He agrees with my Taiwanese instructor that if I'm pretty sure about details (the numbers in the examples) or that something will happen then 大约 technically should be used. That said, he also mentioned the definition difference isn't huge so that most people wouldn't fuss if the wrong one was used.

"大约" and "大概" aren't perfect synonyms to me either and I agree with some of what you have said so far. I guess I haven't understood the rest yet. Teach me, please - how do you say "Ralph will buy that laptop" with the 2 different levels of certainty you described below? That is, how do you say "Ralph will buy that laptop" when you know it will happen, ie. the case in which you said "大约" has to be used, and how do you say "Ralph will buy that laptop" when you think Ralph will buy it but he might not, ie. the case in which your said "大概" has to be used?

snowflake wrote:大约; in Taiwan this has to be used when you know something will happen...the plane probably will land in 10 minutes. You know that the plane has to come down to the ground at some point.
大概; in Taiwan this is used if you're unsure whether something will happen...Ralph will probably buy that laptop. You think Ralph will buy it but he might not. 大概 seems to be the preferred word for mainlanders.
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