PM's Target Europe - FR, NL and on again off again NO

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Neurotip
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Re: PM's Target Europe (French, Dutch, Norwegian)

Postby Neurotip » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:30 pm

tungemål wrote:I would suggest reading Mista's excellent post again. I didn't know about this, but the explanation for u and y is absolutely correct.

Of course, I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's Target Europe (French, Dutch, Norwegian)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:42 am

In the last couple of days or so I've had some language confusion again.

Most of us suffer from this horrible affliction at some time or another (or most days) and it's like an illness that puts us into a state of turmoil mixed with some kind of joy in that our confusing brains take control of us and lead us down all kinds of paths. What if I drop this language and do more of that language. What if I introduce 16 more languages, where will I be in the year 2180? And if I use every single language course invented for French 2.5 times over, will I be debating with the French president on how to best represent the French people?....

Internal debates -
Drop Norwegian or not.
Introduce Spanish or not.
Reduce to just French and Dutch (umm, I think I already said that = Drop Norwegian or not).
Only actively study Dutch for a year.

The issues are... in a few weeks time my family expands by one more (newest, youngest) member. With regards to language learning, I'll have more to work around to try to find the time to learn.

I'm finding Norwegian progress slow as I have little time (at least when you compare it to what I put into French in the past), and I need to get to a point where I'm happy to read to the kids in the language. I could be wrong, but that doesn't appear to be anytime soon. The main issue is insufficient amount of independent learning at this stage and coupled with the current feeling that the tonal system is unpredictable and therefore reading in the language out loud to my children will be fraught with forced errors, at least that's how it appears currently. I'd be happy for anyone with more experience in Norwegian to say - no, don't stress, give it 6 months or so and you'll be reading and knowing exactly how to stress the words correctly. Right now, I just follow the textbooks and the tonal system does not seem that predictable.

Dropping Norwegian however, would be a big disappointment to my daughter, who'd like to learn it some day. Although, I'd maintain that I'd pick it up again down the track (to be fair that would likely be a few years off).

Spanish compared to Norwegian is the opposite. I could read immediately. I already know the pronunciation well, the stress is predictable in all cases in every single word due to a few known rules. It's a big language. It's a global language.

Dutch and French. I must continue of course to work on French to some extent. I've toyed with the idea of translation/interpretation, thus I must improve. And Dutch will be valuable employment wise. Not to mention, I'm already reading regularly to the children in Dutch and have been speaking to them relatively frequently in the language too. For employment purposes in nursing, however, it's currently more important to advance in Dutch than in French, as my French is already well beyond the minimum required level (B2). Could I pass a Dutch B2 exam in May 2021? Likely not if I keep plodding along with three languages and messing around with introducing Spanish again.

Signing off,
Mr Confused.
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Gustav Aschenbach
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Re: PM's Target Europe (French, Dutch, Norwegian)

Postby Gustav Aschenbach » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:05 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:
Dutch and French. I must continue of course to work on French to some extent. I've toyed with the idea of translation/interpretation, thus I must improve.


For translation (not for interpretation) you need a very good (reading) comprehension of the source language (but it doesn't have to be perfect; C1 is actually enough). Speaking, writing and listening skills in the source language are not important. Writing skills in the target language (=your mother tongue) are obviously very important.
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Re: PM's Target Europe (French, Dutch, Norwegian)

Postby Ogrim » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:40 am

Congratulations on the soon to come new member of your family, PM.

Sorry to hear that you think of dropping Norwegian. I can understand your frustration about lack of fast progress, and as a native I cannot really give much advice there. I do think you put too much emphasis on the tonal system though. There are not many words where the tone is the only distinctive feature, and as Norway has tons of dialects with tones varying between them, not producing the right "standard" tones will not be an obstacle to being understood.

Whatever you decide, keep up the good work!
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Re: PM's Target Europe (French, Dutch, Norwegian)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:44 am

Gustav Aschenbach wrote:For translation (not for interpretation) you need...


Thanks for the input, Gustav. I truly appreciate it.

Ogrim wrote:Congratulations on the soon to come new member of your family, PM.


Thank you kindly, Ogrim.

Ogrim wrote:Sorry to hear that you think of dropping Norwegian. I can understand your frustration about lack of fast progress, and as a native I cannot really give much advice there. I do think you put too much emphasis on the tonal system though. There are not many words where the tone is the only distinctive feature, and as Norway has tons of dialects with tones varying between them, not producing the right "standard" tones will not be an obstacle to being understood.

Whatever you decide, keep up the good work!


Thanks again, Ogrim, for your kind words. Yes, it seems from what you've written that I've over-played the significance of correctly applying the tonal system. That does make me feel somewhat relieved, thank you. I've also sent a message to my friends in Norway, and perhaps a fellow Aussie who's reached an advanced level of Norwegian will bring further clarity (or confusion?). Then again, she was not trying to learn other languages simultaneously.

So, I'm continuing to fluctuate, hesitate and sow seeds of onzekerheid (uncertainty)... I guess I'm in some kind of limbo-ish state... again.

Despite what I've said in recent times to the contrary, I'd rather not arrive in Europe with mediocre levels of several languages and find myself with the lack of time to be able to push forward with all of them. In other words, taking on several languages at once, means one better ensure one has the time to commit to all for the next decade or face the reality of giving up one or two at some point anyway.

Therefore, a more of a 'learn one new language at a time' process, may prove wiser. The most important one being Dutch. While improving French also remains super important, and an expanding family, it seems 2 languages is already more than enough.

I seem to be concluding that I'm just not satisfied with language learning unless I can progress faster in fewer languages. As much as I truly would like to continue with Norwegian and am excited about the possibility of introducing Spanish, the reality tells me something else.

Wisdom keeps telling me that I need to focus on fewer - Dutch and French alone. Although I may gain some serious gradual ground in Norwegian sticking with it currently, if I instead appplied the less is more approach and cut it out of the picture now, i'm likely to reach a higher level of fluency in Norwegian faster in the end and reach my targeted level sooner even if I were to drop it now, because juggling several languages at once is feeling more and more like treading water. I dunno, talk to me tomorrow and I'm likely to convinced myself of the exact opposite.
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Gustav Aschenbach
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Re: PM's Target Europe (French, Dutch, [strike]Norwegian[/strike])

Postby Gustav Aschenbach » Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:23 am

Hi Peter

Do you actually contemplate living in Norway, too?
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Re: PM's Target Europe (French, Dutch, [strike]Norwegian[/strike])

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:18 am

Gustav Aschenbach wrote:Hi Peter

Do you actually contemplate living in Norway, too?


Hi Gustav. Yes and no. Yes because of the high standard of living and the arguably the best nursing conditions in Europe (as opposed to poor conditions in France). Yes because of language wanderlust - it's nice to imagine as a language wanderluster having to learn Norwegian because my family's well-being and livelihood will one day fancifully require it. Yes because my daughter loves the idea (a bit like me).

No because my wife isn't keen on the climate for at least half of the year. No because if I ever manage to jump through all the hurdles required for getting into Belgium as a foreign non-EU trained nurse, I likely won't want to do it again for Norway. No because that process is lengthy and potentially costly.

In reality if you mix the above together you come out with 'it might happen one day, just maybe, for 12 months, but that's as long it will likely last. If it lasted longer it'd be quite surprising'.

Even if I seriously envisage living there and there weren't as many cons, Belgium still comes first. French still wins hands down and Dutch a strong second. I always wonder what it would be like living in another country when I begin learning the language, I think it perhaps helps me convince myself that it's a worthwhile endeavour requiring me to put in a good deal of time an effort. Were I to place bets on my future, I'd say I'll never live in Norway but could likely visit several to many times throughout my life depending on what life has in stall for me.

I've reached the required B2 for French some time ago, meaning I've ticked the non-EU language requirements for nursing in EU countries for a non-EU trained nurse (but not ticked all the other red tape boxes). That took some effort (reaching B2). I can't see myself reaching B2 in both Dutch and Norwegian before arriving in Europe in the projected two years time (as well as improving my French somewhat) - as well as keeping my sanity! If one has to go, it's Norwegian. After all I hold a Dutch passport, it might be odd if I had a Dutch passport and could barely speak the language, yet could speak Norwegian without issue. Still, I'm okay with odd. Nevertheless, Dutch wins anyway. For now.
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Gustav Aschenbach
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Re: PM's Target Europe (French, Dutch, [strike]Norwegian[/strike])

Postby Gustav Aschenbach » Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:35 am

Okay Peter, you have a Dutch passport, your Dutch is already better than your Norwegian (I guess) and you can use Dutch in the Netherlands AND in Belgium (both in the EU), whereas Norwegian is only spoken in Norway (not in the EU). I think you know what to do. :lol:

Having to work full-time to support ourselves we both know what it means to have time restraints. I'm absolutely fascinated by all kinds of languages, but I know I just don't have the resources in terms of time and energy to study them all. It's just not possible. Even two languages at the same time are a challenge.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's Target Europe (French, Dutch, [strike]Norwegian[/strike])

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:51 am

Gustav Aschenbach wrote:I think you know what to do. :lol:


I'd be careful in assuming with me :lol:

Gustav Aschenbach wrote:Having to work full-time to support ourselves we both know what it means to have time restraints. I'm absolutely fascinated by all kinds of languages, but I know I just don't have the resources in terms of time and energy to study them all. It's just not possible. Even two languages at the same time are a challenge.


Wise words indeed ;)
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Re: PM's Target Belgium - Dutch B2 May 2021, French C1 someday

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:19 am

Okay. I've made the decision. I'm dropping Norwegian. But I feel okay about it. I intend to come back to it in 2 or 3 years if all goes well. That's not much time, thus I need to really move forward with Dutch. I'm still going to collect a few resources over the coming months that I had my eye on for learning Norwegian and store them away for future safe-keeping. I'm also content I got my head around most of the pronunciation pretty well in fact in the end, except for getting a real feel for the tonal system to the point of it becoming automatic, but I'd only been at it for two and a bit months. So, coming back to Norwegian, shouldn't be as much as a shock as my first foray into the language this year. I said to my daughter I'd definitely return to the language, so I must do so, unless of course she drastically changes her desires to learn the language too. I just feel like I'll actually do Norwegian more justice (and Dutch for that matter) by ditching Norwegian for the time being.

So, my principal focus is now Dutch, not that it wasn't before, but of course even more so now. There are language tests CNaVT (Certifcaat Nederlands als Vreemde Taal) held every year in May for Dutch around the world. I'm going to target the B2 next year in May. I have thirteen whole months and a bit, that is around 400 days. I think 600 hours (1.5 hrs/day) of desk study is achievable as I definitely want to work through the courses solidly. I'd like more in terms of course study hours, and so that's my only dilemma now - how much time I devote to French while on this new Dutch mission, as I still would like to move forwards in French, albeit slowly/minimally for the next 13 months. The more Dutch the better without destroying my French.
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