Reading 3.000.000 words in German

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slowmoon
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Re: Reading 3.000.000 words in German

Postby slowmoon » Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:46 pm

smallwhite wrote:The way I see your results is:

Simple passive vocabulary test 1 (Leipzig)
B1->B2

Professional reading test (Dialang)
B1->B1

Simple passive vocabulary test 2 (wortschatz.tk )
Improvement

and I was only thinking about and talking about reading, because it's a given there'd be improvement in or reactivation of (per Reineke) passive vocabulary with all that reading.

I've done at least 23 Dialang tests and find them reliable. I tend to take tests when I feel solidly at a level, though, so Dialang could be fuzzy between levels and I wouldn't know. I also did the first 13 questions of the Dialang German Reading test recently to see if it was unreasonably hard, and it wasn't.

I've used eclexam as well before, 3 times, but only for listening. I found the recordings easy and the scores high. But I passed what I expected to pass so I didn't look further into it.


I saw that you mentioned doing those 13 questions in DaveAgain's thread. That doesn't tell me much, as I know nothing about your German level or how many you'd get right out of 30.

I'm not saying Dialang is unreliable. The fact that all three tests indicate that I'm at a B-ish level (which I self-assessed at before I took any of them) leaves little doubt that I'm around that level.

I would also add that I don't think we can disprove mass input or say it's a waste based on 10,000 or 12,000 pages. None of the mass input proponents claim that 12,000 pages is enough to get to the C levels. The Antimoon guys point to 1,000,000 sentences (http://www.antimoon.com/how/input-howmuch.htm) which would be closer to 10-15 million words, or 50,000 pages. I can't read 8,000 or 12,000 pages and then say that the 50,000 page method doesn't work.
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Re: Reading 3.000.000 words in German

Postby smallwhite » Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:31 pm

slowmoon wrote:
I saw that you mentioned doing those 13 questions in DaveAgain's thread. That doesn't tell me much, as I know nothing about your German level or how many you'd get right out of 30.


I'm not advanced but I got 13/13, which means the test was not unreasonably hard. That was all I wanted to find out at that moment.
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Re: Reading 3.000.000 words in German

Postby slowmoon » Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:19 pm

smallwhite wrote:
slowmoon wrote:
I saw that you mentioned doing those 13 questions in DaveAgain's thread. That doesn't tell me much, as I know nothing about your German level or how many you'd get right out of 30.


I'm not advanced but I got 13/13, which means the test was not unreasonably hard. That was all I wanted to find out at that moment.


Thanks. That tells me more.

I just took the Dialang Vocabulary test (not placement), and got B2. I didn't even notice it was there until now or else I would've taken it at the start. Then I took Writing and got B1. Listening yesterday was B2. So actually, there's not really a conflict. Both Leipzig and Dialang say my vocab is B2, while I'm clearly lacking precision in Reading and Writing. Likely due to grammar issues.
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Re: Reading 3.000.000 words in German

Postby Cenwalh » Sat Jun 06, 2020 6:59 pm

I don't really see what all this discussion on B1/2 and the effectiveness is for when there was quite clearly a goal at the start:
slowmoon wrote:Question: Why read three million words in total?
Answer: Again, this number is based on Nation's research. Three million words read yields nine thousand word families encountered over twelve times each. Nine thousand known word families would yield 97-98% vocabulary coverage of books written for adult natives, and about half the vocabulary size of an educated adult native. This seems like a reasonable goal.

It seems to me like this goal was met given the descriptions of how the reading felt along the way. I'd be interested in some samples of random pages of how many words you know, but I guess you're probably sick of doing such tests! Anyway, you set out to improve at reading and you sure as hell did, so whether a B1 stayed a B1 on a test or moved to a B2 is kind of irrelevant.

What intrigues me is your improvement given how fast you read. I've found in my reading that when I go as fast as I can I just skip over words I don't know, but when I slow it down a bit I more easily figure out what they mean and remember them. I guess that's like an extensive+ or intensive- reading. At a minute per page or less as you were doing I just find it staggering that you ever focused on an individual word enough to absorb them.
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Re: Reading 3.000.000 words in German

Postby slowmoon » Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:08 pm

Cenwalh wrote:Anyway, you set out to improve at reading and you sure as hell did, so whether a B1 stayed a B1 on a test or moved to a B2 is kind of irrelevant.


It's too easy to lie to oneself. I think measurement is necessary. But I agree that there was both objective and subjective improvement so I more or less achieved what I set out to achieve.

What intrigues me is your improvement given how fast you read. I've found in my reading that when I go as fast as I can I just skip over words I don't know, but when I slow it down a bit I more easily figure out what they mean and remember them. I guess that's like an extensive+ or intensive- reading. At a minute per page or less as you were doing I just find it staggering that you ever focused on an individual word enough to absorb them.


There's not really anything staggering there, IMO. I definitely skipped tons of words. If 2% of the words were unknown of 2,000,000 read, then I encountered 40,000 unknown words. If wortschatz.tk was accurate, then I learned roughly 4,800 of those words. Only 12.5% of them.

If I skipped 80% of new words, absorbed 10% because they were super obvious in context, used a dictionary for 10%, and then forgot half of them, I'd be left with around 12.5% learned. As far as I remember, the Clockwork Orange studies showed a similar percentage of nonsense words learned with no dictionary use. The readers picked up 5% of them or however much.

Honestly, I probably used a dictionary once every 10 pages with certain books.

Here's some original German krimi that I just read. The stuff in bold was skipped or guessed incorrectly. The underlined stuff I guessed correctly or got the gist of and didn't look up (until now).

Sie murmelte etwas auf türkisch, aber selbst laut und
deutlich verstehe ich diese Sprache nicht. Ich erklärte ihr,
ich sei zwar ein Landsmann, könne aber Türkisch wegen
besonderer Umstände weder sprechen noch verstehen. Sie
verzog das Gesicht, flüsterte: »Auf Wiedersehen«, und
wollte sich wegschleichen.
»Ach, warten Sie doch mal. Wir werden uns schon
verständigen können, irgendwie, meinen Sie nicht? Setzen
Sie sich, und dann erzählen Sie mir in Ruhe, weshalb Sie in
der Hitze hier hoch gestiegen sind. In Ordnung?«
Die Ohrringe wackelten bedenklich.
»Sehen Sie, ich habe gerade Kaffee gemacht, und ich…
tja, wir können Kaffee trinken und Kuchen essen und, na
ja, das können wir machen. Nicht wahr?«
Langsam verlor ich die Geduld. Endlich ging der Mund
auf und hauchte ein »Gut«.
»Machen Sie sich’s bequem, ich will nur grad ’nen
zweiten Teller besorgen.«
Über meinem Büro liegen die Räume eines zweifelhaften Kreditinstituts, dessen Einnahmequelle das Kleingedruckte ist. Der Kassierer des Ladens, ein verschlafener
Glatzenträger, kommt manchmal auf einen Schwatz herunter. Meistens mit einer Flasche Kirschlikör unterm
Arm.
Während ich überlegte, was die stumme Türkin wollen
könnte, lief ich die Treppe rauf und hämmerte gegen die
Tür mit der Aufschrift »DURCH UNS WERDEN IHRE WÜNSCHE WIRKLICHKEIT – BÄUMLER UND ZANK KREDITINSTITUT«.
Es grunzte, und ich trat ein. Hinter dem Schreibtisch
des Empfangszimmers saß der Kassierer und blätterte
gelangweilt in einem Fußballmagazin.
»Na, Mustaffa, was gibt’s?«
»Ich brauch ’n Teller und ’ne Gabel. Läßt sich sowas in
dem Laden hier auftreiben
»Was gibt’s denn Feines? Kebab?«
»Mhm, kann schon sein.«
»Na ja, will mal sehen, was sich machen läßt.«
Er wuchtete sich aus dem Sessel, schlappte zu einer Tür
und verschwand. Es roch süßlich. Ich ging um den
Schreibtisch herum und zog die obere Schublade heraus.
Eine halbleere Flasche Likör rollte mir entgegen. Während ich sie aufschraubte, um ein bißchen daran zu
lutschen, schepperte es laut im Zimmer nebenan. Kurz
darauf kam der Kassierer fluchend mit Gabel und Teller
zurück.
»Hier haste dein Porzellan, Mustaffa.«
Er sah den Likör und zog die Mundwinkel hoch.
»Kannste dich denn nicht daran gewöhnen, daß de nun
in ’nem zivilisierten Land bist, wo man nich in anderer
Leute Schubladen rumschnüffelt?«


How did her earrings waggle? I know she's hesitating. The root "denk" is in there. Thoughtfully? Whatever.

Once you know a lender is zweifelhaft, you know an example of some unscrupulous business practice follows. What exactly? Doesn't matter.

So that's the process. Just not caring until something's really important.
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Re: Reading 3.000.000 words in German

Postby Serpent » Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:20 am

Wow. How many books did you end up reading? How many did you leave unfinished?
slowmoon wrote: My audio and video consumption was fairly low. Maybe 20 or 30 hours in bits and pieces. Mostly on YouTube. After the media started talking about the virus 24/7, I nearly stopped consuming German news and radio altogether.
Have you done massive listening before? In my experience you need both reading and listening to activate your "passive" knowledge (not necessarily in the same timeframe).

When taking Dialang, did you do the reading self-assessment and what was the result? Also, did you take the dialang vocabulary test (not the placement test)? I think it actually characterizes Dialang positively that the difference between B1 and B2 is not just vocabulary.
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Re: Reading 3.000.000 words in German

Postby slowmoon » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:43 pm

Serpent wrote:Wow. How many books did you end up reading? How many did you leave unfinished?
slowmoon wrote: My audio and video consumption was fairly low. Maybe 20 or 30 hours in bits and pieces. Mostly on YouTube. After the media started talking about the virus 24/7, I nearly stopped consuming German news and radio altogether.
Have you done massive listening before? In my experience you need both reading and listening to activate your "passive" knowledge (not necessarily in the same timeframe).

When taking Dialang, did you do the reading self-assessment and what was the result? Also, did you take the dialang vocabulary test (not the placement test)? I think it actually characterizes Dialang positively that the difference between B1 and B2 is not just vocabulary.


After scrolling through my updates, I'd say that 50% of the books I started were never finished. Not sure what that adds up to.

Yes, I've done massive listening. Well over 90% of my total input before I started this project was listening. Mostly films, music, and radio. Now it's the opposite.

I don't remember the reading self-assessment score. I think I skipped it the second time. Maybe B2 the first time.

The Dialang Vocabulary test score was B2, but I only took it after I'd finished all the reading. Writing was B1.

The Dialang placement test overestimated my level. Not sure why. Probably because of skill imbalances.
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