ALTVM VIDETVR

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vonPeterhof
Blue Belt
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Languages: Russian (N), English (C2), Japanese (~C1), German (~B2), Kazakh (~B1), Norwegian (~A2)
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Re: ALTVM VIDETVR

Postby vonPeterhof » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:53 pm

Happy New Year, everyone! Last year was my second year as a translator, and while I'm still feeling inadequate in many ways I do feel like I'm making progress. The Economic section deals with a wide range of topics, and I've been pleased to discover that I now have specialities of sorts within the translation team, namely finance and tourism (on the other hand, me trying to translate on the subjects of agriculture and fisheries usually ends poorly). It hasn't been an easy year, but it could have been much harder if I didn't have this job, and the fact that it's in something I'm actually interested in is a great bonus.

As for my language learning last year, I have had some setbacks and frustrations with my Classical languages challenge, and I didn't manage to use the local languages during my trips to Slovakia, Austria and Estonia nearly as much as I would have liked, but overall I've enjoyed challenging myself throughout the year, as well as meeting some of you at the Polyglot Gathering. I'm probably not going to make it this year, but hopefully next time I go I'll be able to actually converse in a couple more languages (getting over my German stage fright and ending the silent period in at least one Romance language would be a great start..).

Anyway, I'm up to lesson 19 in Biblical Hebrew now. The motivation is still there, although things are starting to get quite tricky with the construct state. The book has also started introducing actual Biblical passages, albeit in heavily edited form to exclude grammatical constructs and vocabulary not covered yet. Comparing the Hebrew text of the Genesis with a translation into Old Church Slavonic has got me thinking about the latter language and to which extent the grammatical patterns we see there are actually calques from Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew rather than native patterns. Most of the influence would have been from the former, since even the Old Testament was likely to have originally been translated into it via Greek, but the Greek used in the Septuagint apparently also betrays some Semitic influence, and even New Testament Greek isn't immune: apparently the word οὐρᾰνός, "sky, heaven", wasn't used in the plural until the Christian era, according a note here, which may be a reflection of the fact that the Hebrew equivalent שָׁמַיִם is always plural (though interestingly, the mainstream translations of the Genesis into both Greek and OCS use the singular for "heaven"). This makes me curious if the corresponding OCS plural form небеса is also a calque of this kind - unlike with Greek, there isn't a corpus of pre-Christian Slavic written literature to compare usages (notorious forgeries notwithstanding). OCS is the classical language I'm most interested in getting back to, but these sorts of doubts about whether or not it actually reflects a form of a once living language does give me second thoughts.

Additionally for Hebrew, I found a better source for etymological information regarding the historical phonemes /ɣ/ and /x/ (believed to have been realized as [ʁ] and [χ], respectively): an online version of History of the Ancient and Modern Hebrew Language by David Steinberg, specifically these two parts that give large lists of roots and words containing those phonemes. With this it's possible to get a full known picture of the consonantal structure of words in early Biblical Hebrew - just check the lists whenever you see words containing the letters ע and ח . If only it were as easy to trace back the vowels! Unfortunately, the Tiberian vowels reflected in the vowel marks used up to the modern day often have very little to do with the distribution of vowel lengths in the early Biblical era, and I haven't been able to find a definitive answer to the question of whether or not those differences in Tiberian reflect the evolution of a living Hebrew language or changes brought about by its extinction as a language of everyday use. Theoretically it is possible to check each and every word against sound change laws and Semitic cognates to try and see what the original vowel lengths were, but that would be highly impractical. Looks like I'll have to settle for Lamdin's modified Tiberian vowels like I settled for Karlgren's Middle Chinese transliterations in Classical Chinese.

Progress in other languages has been mostly fine, although I've run into not entirely unpredictable trouble with Karachay-Balkar. Apparently its differences from Noghay-Kipchak languages like Kazakh are non-trivial enough that even dictionary lookups can be problematic, so the lack of easily matchable translations of Khayyam's quatrains has come to bite me in the rear. Looks like I'll have to shelve this one for the time being.

Lastly, my traditional(?) ranking of the anime of last year. 2017 has been a really good year for anime, so both picking a Top 10 list and arranging titles within it was pretty difficult (if I think about it for a couple more minutes I might come up with an entirely different list :D). Anyway, here it is:

10. 僕のヒーローアカデミア 第2期/My Hero Academia 2nd season
9. 賭ケグルイ/Kakegurui: Compulsive Gambler
8. 宝石の国/Land of the Lustrous
7. 昭和元禄落語心中 -助六再び篇-/Descending Stories: Showa Genroku Rakugo Shinju
6. メイドインアビス/Made in Abyss
5. 終物語 完結編/Owarimonogatari Second Season
4. 少女終末旅行/Girls' Last Tour
3. けものフレンズ/Kemono Friends
2. リトルウィッチアカデミア/Little Witch Academia
1. 小林さんちのメイドラゴン/Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid

(However, if we include movies that came out last year but I've only managed to catch this year, than everything in the list moves back one place and the first place is now a three-way tie between 君の名は/your name, 聲の形/A Silent Voice and この世界の片隅に/In This Corner of the World).
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languist
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Languages: English (N)
Learning: Mostly, how to procrastinate + French, Spanish, Darija, Russian, Slovak, Circassian, Greek
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Re: ALTVM VIDETVR

Postby languist » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:56 am

Just popping in to say that I admire the spectrum of languages you’re covering, and that I’m especially thrilled to find someone else who seems so interested in those little kavkaz languages. Good luck with your studies - I’ll be following!
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vonPeterhof
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Languages: Russian (N), English (C2), Japanese (~C1), German (~B2), Kazakh (~B1), Norwegian (~A2)
Studying: Kazakh, Mandarin, Coptic
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Re: ALTVM VIDETVR

Postby vonPeterhof » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:24 am

languist wrote:Just popping in to say that I admire the spectrum of languages you’re covering, and that I’m especially thrilled to find someone else who seems so interested in those little kavkaz languages. Good luck with your studies - I’ll be following!

Thanks, languist! I am interested in the languages of the Caucasus, including the Turkic and Indo-European ones, so I often feel guilty about not dedicating enough attention to them.
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languist
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Posts: 164
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Languages: English (N)
Learning: Mostly, how to procrastinate + French, Spanish, Darija, Russian, Slovak, Circassian, Greek
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7523
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Re: ALTVM VIDETVR

Postby languist » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:40 am

vonPeterhof wrote:Thanks, languist! I am interested in the languages of the Caucasus, including the Turkic and Indo-European ones, so I often feel guilty about not dedicating enough attention to them.

Yes they’re all so interesting ! I know how you feel - to be honest, I put Circassian at the bottom of my priority list on paper, but I know secretly it’s near the top. I love the Caucasian & IE languages there... and it’s not that I don’t love the Turkic ones, more than I know that I don’t have the time to learn about them right now, so I’m deliberately avoiding getting too passionate for a while. :lol: The Northwest Caucasian family definitely stole my heart first ! I’d love to talk to you sometime about your experience learning these languages, and maybe about resources too, but first I’ll read through your log a little more. (:
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vonPeterhof
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Re: ALTVM VIDETVR

Postby vonPeterhof » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:42 pm

I am now more than halfway through the Biblical Hebrew book and, just as I predicted (preprogrammed myself?), I've become a bit burnt out on the production exercises (translating phrases or sentences from Russian to Hebrew, either orally or in written form). I'm still enjoying reading, translating and adding sentences to Anki though, and looking into Semitic historical linguistics on the side is still fascinating. I'm becoming especially attracted to the various forms of Aramaic, though that would probably be a bit harder to find good resources for. Plus my interest in Old Church Slavonic has been reignited in a major way. One additional exercise I've made for myself is writing the translations for my Anki cards in OCS by converting Church Slavonic passages from the Bible into proper OCS: reversing the deletion of ultra-short vowels (овецъ -> овьць), restoring the nasals and other vowel qualities (принесе -> принѣсѧ), removing East-Slavicisms and modernizations in declensions (отъ плодѡвъ -> отъ плодъ), etc.

I know I said in my previous update that I wasn't planning on going to the Polyglot Gathering this year, but that was before Cesco mentioned the possibility of "polyglot karaoke" in the Facebook group. In light of that I am very tempted to make amendments to my plans :D
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vonPeterhof
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Re: ALTVM VIDETVR

Postby vonPeterhof » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:58 pm

Another unplanned trip to a bookstore, another change to my language learning plans. This time I actually ended up buying the textbook for Classical Syriac that I first noticed a year or so ago. It was originally published in Armenian by Arman Akopian, who also wrote the translated Russian edition. Looks like I have found a way to work (a form of) Aramaic into my Classical languages studies after all! Syriac interests me both as an important language for the early spread of Christianity and as a historically important lingua franca of the Middle East, prior to the rise of Arabic. Plus, its script is ancestral to the scripts for, among others, Arabic and Manchu (maybe it'll become a little easier to distinguish Manchu letters from each other now..). Anyway, I guess after I'm done with Biblical Hebrew instead of moving on to Classical Sanskrit I'll be making a detour to Classical Syriac instead :)

Oh, and I also found an alternative to Karachay-Balkar after having faced difficulties reading poetry in it without dedicated study. This past week I recalled that I also had a poetry collection in Bashkir, which, unlike the KB one, also had poetic Russian translations for each poem, which should make figuring out the meanings of whole sentences significantly easier. Bashkir isn't significantly closer to Kazakh than KB, but the area where it's spoken is at least closer to Kazakhstan and there is no factor of influence from the languages of the Caucasus, so the similarities might be bigger. Besides, I've long been interested specifically in Bashkir because my patrilinear ancestry is connected to a historically Bashkir-speaking area, and my surname sounds like it could be derived from either Bashkir or Tatar (though my family insists on a Russian etymology).
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Re: ALTVM VIDETVR

Postby Expugnator » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:55 am

Hey vonPeterhof, care to share the name of the Syriac textbook in Russian?
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Corrections welcome for any language.

vonPeterhof
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Re: ALTVM VIDETVR

Postby vonPeterhof » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:37 am

@Expugnator Oh yeah, sorry for not having shared it earlier. It's called Классический сирийский язык. The author's name is spelled Арман Акопян.

Also, now that I'm here, might as well quickly share a discovery I made recently in resources for Bashkir: the publishing house Kitap has a whole bunch of elementary school Bashkir textbooks (a primer, language exercise books and literary reading books for the first four grades) freely available on their website as e-books. Some of them even have audio materials! They're aimed at native speaking children, so some of them might not be terribly practical for someone with no background in Turkic languages, but still, simple reading material for free!
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Re: ALTVM VIDETVR

Postby Expugnator » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:32 pm

Thanks, noted! The covered wasn't unfamiliar and I have indeed seen it before. I like the way it introduce the alphabet, much like the more recent resources on Hebrew do. I might start Aramaic through Classical Syriac given it has more consistent resources.
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vonPeterhof
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Languages: Russian (N), English (C2), Japanese (~C1), German (~B2), Kazakh (~B1), Norwegian (~A2)
Studying: Kazakh, Mandarin, Coptic
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Re: ALTVM VIDETVR

Postby vonPeterhof » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:16 pm

A very brief update for a few selected languages:

Hebrew: it's been a busy couple of weeks, and Hebrew has suffered the most. I'm on lesson 36 now, and I think I have barely completed two lessons since the start of February.

Ingrian: no, I hadn't dropped it, it's just that there hasn't really been anything interesting to report, as most of the lessons consisted of a couple conjugation tables, at most two example sentences and a conjugation/declension exercise (which I would shamelessly skip). The last three lessons though each have short fairy tales to translate, so now I'm finally interested. Interested enough to go back to the conjugation tables I barely looked through just to decode the precise meanings of every word :D Not sure if this will motivate me to keep on trying to learn the language after I'm done with the book, but at least I'll have had fun with it.

Français: J'ai commencé à re-regarder l'anime Yamada-kun and the Seven Witches (山田くんと7人の魔女), cette fois doublé en français, parce que... est-ce que j'ai besoin d'une raison? :D

Dari: I actually did go through a (very very small) collection of Omar Khayyam quatrains with parallel Russian translations before quietly ticking off the "Dari/Persian" box, but my desire to learn the language was rekindled by the tragic events in Afghanistan a couple of weeks ago. Even though I wasn't really learning Dari at that poing, I was still following a few Twitter accounts connected to Afghanistan when those harrowing attacks happened in quick succession, so I found myself in the awkward position of no longer being able to just brush them off as yet another news item from "a part of the world where these things just happen", yet also not really understanding the local languages nearly well enough to properly hear the voices from the ground unfiltered. Not sure if that previous sentence made any sense (heck, I'm not even sure if those feelings make any sense inside my head), but either way I decided to start going through the Dari lessons in GLOSS. Even if I never end up developing a meaningful connection to Afghanistan, leaving my Dari where it is right now just doesn't fell right any more.
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