Guyome's log

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PfifltriggPi
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Re: Guyome's log [LAD, LAT, MAN, OCC, PER, YID]

Postby PfifltriggPi » Wed Dec 23, 2020 1:04 am

I already do not have time to keep up with my languages I am trying to learn now, so I will have to pass on Chagatai this Christmas, although I will keep watch if you do it, since Chagatai/Uyghur is on my list of languages I would like to read someday, so watching someone else do it will be edifying, I do believe.
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guyome
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Re: Guyome's log [LAD, LAT, MAN, OCC, PER, YID]

Postby guyome » Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:30 am

Thanks, PfifltriggPi! I might do it for a short time (two weeks?), if only to get it out of my system for the time being. It's definitely not the sensible thing to do given that I'm already kind of neglecting other languages but I fear that I will succumb anyway.

Given the nature of the project, I'll probably pick Chaghatay. The historian in me is pushing for it and tackling a Classical language feels easier in the early stages: less emphasis on pronounciation and no audio material to work through (of course, in the long run, this becomes more of an impediment than a help).
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vonPeterhof
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Re: Guyome's log [LAD, LAT, MAN, OCC, PER, YID]

Postby vonPeterhof » Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:15 am

guyome wrote:ManchuAs always, reading this kind of texts makes me want to take up Uyghur or Chaghatay. Maybe I'll spend some time during the holidays working through E. Schluessel's freely available An Introduction to Chaghatay: A Graded Textbook for Reading Central Asian Sources. Anyone up for a short Chaghatay Christmas challenge? :D

Unfortunately I've already finished that one :lol: But yeah, the first half of that book in particular has a lot of interesting information about Xinjiang, and some of the historical texts dealt with earlier in the book are essentially in modern Uyghur, just with pre-reform orthography and no Russian loanwords (and perhaps with a few Perso-Arabic ones that are considered rare nowadays).
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guyome
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Re: Guyome's log [LAD, LAT, MAN, OCC, PER, YID]

Postby guyome » Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:19 am

Thanks for the feedback, vonPeterhof! Did you find the book was useful and well put together?

Yes, I was happy to see that it used a lot of late Chaghatay (should I say Early Uyghur?) sources from Xinjiang since that's the region and the period I'm most interested in.
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vonPeterhof
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Re: Guyome's log [LAD, LAT, MAN, OCC, PER, YID]

Postby vonPeterhof » Wed Dec 23, 2020 4:48 pm

guyome wrote:Thanks for the feedback, vonPeterhof! Did you find the book was useful and well put together?

For the most part yeah, although I can't say how well it would work for someone with no prior exposure to Turkic languages and (especially later on) Persian and Arabic (familiarity with Urdu also proved surprisingly helpful as some of the handwritten variant letters in historical texts have become separate letters in that one, like تی vs تے or تہ vs تھ).
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guyome
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Re: Guyome's log [LAD, LAT, MAN, OCC, PER, YID]

Postby guyome » Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:30 pm

Thanks, vonPeterhof! I have some Persian and dabbled in Uyghur before so we'll see how it goes.

Persian
Read another tale in the book I mentioned in my previous update, this means another 60 or so new words. I'll reread the tales over the week to make most of these stick. Having the words used in a story makes it much easier to remember them.
tale2.jpg
tale2.jpg (142.17 KiB) Viewed 314 times
bâzargân merchant
sowghâti souvenir
javâher jewel
talâ gold
sâlem healthy
benâbar hard to find a clear definition, sthing like "so/consequently/at"
ânche that which
hasudi jealousy
ehtiyâj dâshtan to need
taqâsâ kardan to ask for
ja'be box
shishe glass
gereftâr khater ? Something like "effort/danger"? It appears in the following sentence: anhâ fekr kardand ke agar Jalâl ân ja'be râ peydâ konad, gereftâr(-e?) khater bozorgi khâhad shod o koshte khâhad shod "They thought that if Jalâl finds that box, the xxx will be too high/large/big and he will die"

koshtan (Present rad. -kosh-) to kill. I put keshtan in my previous list but, although they are written the same, keshtan means "to plant" and koshtan "to kill". Glosbe mixes the two apparently.
sar zadan to pay a visit/stop by/check...
saranjâm finally/eventually
khatarnâk dangerous
be khâter-e due to
az dast dâdan to lose (sthing you love)
ârâm calm/quiet
sar-o-sedâ tumult/noise

vâqa'an really
dorugh lie
chonin X such a X
darkhâst request
konjkâv curious
kashidan/keshidan to pull/draw
ensân person
yâ inke used to introduce 2nd term of an alternative: âyâ...yâ inke...

sadme wound
rasândan (Pst. stem -rasân-) to deliver
az X morâqebat kardan to watch over X
qodrat power/ability/strength
tekke (tike) piece
pudr powder
bâ'es author
be mahz-e inke as soon as (=hamin ke)
derâz keshidan to lie down
ehsâs feeling
shadid violent/intense/severe
mâjarâ aventure/events
ta'rif description
'âzem shodan to set off
tulâni long

nejât dâdan to save
shomâl north
dânâ wise (adj.)
hakim wise (noun)
bâyisti 2nd p. sg. of bâyad "you have to"?
davâ medicine
mo'aleje kardan to cure
qasam khordan to swear
qavi strong
sowgand promise/oath
hamsar spouse

sa'i kardan to make an effort/attempt > to try
tarak kardan to abandon (tarak crack)
khoshunat harshness/violence (also an adverb, "harshly"?)
alân now
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guyome
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Re: Guyome's log [LAD, LAT, MAN, OCC, PER, YID]

Postby guyome » Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:54 pm

Chaghatay
I've worked through the first three lessons of An Introduction to Chaghatay. It's been very enjoyable so far and I like the book.

Here are some general reading notes:
+ many exercises (lessons 1-6)
+ many examples
+ explanations short and to the point
+ key for all exercices and texts
+ the texts in lessons 10-16 are given in two versions, typewritten and scans from the actual manuscripts

- the amount of reading decreases when authentic material is introduced (lesson 7), while the amount of vocab to learn increases
- I'm not sure the section about the script is always as clear as should be (I already knew the script though, so I probably wasn't a very good candidate to test its efficiency)
- some grammar points appear in the exercises without having been introduced before (dur being left out in sentences A B dur; plural of verbs in durlar; 3rd p. sg. possessive suffix used without the genitive)
- a few typos (or maybe things that were left in from previous versions), like berdi/put used in the exercises of lesson 3 but not introduced in the lesson, or a few inconsistencies between the exercises and the key.
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guyome
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Re: Guyome's log [LAD, LAT, MAN, OCC, PER, YID]

Postby guyome » Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:46 pm

Manchu
I read the biography of Eidu, a prominent Manchu figure during the reign of Nurhaci and the (violent) unification of the various clans that would later be known as the "Manchus".
The text was published in vol. 142 of the Comprehensive History of the Eight Banners (Jakūn gūsai tung jy sucungga weilehe bithe/八旗通志初集), a large compilation of biographies of members of the Eight Banners published in 1739.
These biographies can be quite dry ("he went there, he fought, he won") but Eidu's is slightly more detailed. Here is the beginning of the text:
eidu baturu. kubuhe suwayan i manju gūsai niyalma. niohuru hala. jalan halame golmin šanggiyan alin de tehe bihe. ajigen fonde ini ama eme kimungge niyalma de nungnebuhe. eidu be adaki booi niyalma gamafi somire jakade bahafi guwehe.

Eidu Baturu was a member of the Manchu Bordered Yellow Banner and a member of the Niohuru clan. For generations, his family had lived in the Changbai mountains. In his youth, his parents were killed in a feud. Because Eidu was taken to a neighbour's house and hidden there, he managed to survive.

juwan ilan se oho manggi. kimungge niyalma be wafi. jailafi ini gu be baime giyamuhū gašan de genefi tehe. taidzu dergi hūwangdi tubabe dulere de. eidu sabume. uthai unenggi ejen seme takafi dahame geneki seme gu de alaha manggi. gu ilibure jakade. eidu fafuršame hendume. haha seme banjifi emu jalan de baibi wajimbio sehe. taidzu saišafi dahabume gamafi. tereci ulhiyen i akdafi baitalaha.


When he was thirteen years old, he killed the person responsible for the feud. He then fled and went to live with his paternal aunt in the village of Giyamuhū. When Nurhaci passed through this place, Eidu saw him, recognized him as the true lord and wanted to go follow (=submit to) him. After he told his aunt, she stopped him. Eidu said vehemently: "I was born born a man, will I end up my life being useless?" Nurhaci praised him and took him with him. From then on, he came to trust him and employed him.

tuktan nikan wailan be dailame turun hoton be afara de. geren be gaifi ujude tafaka. sakji hoton be afara de. bata be belheme jabdubuhakū gaiha. ihan. morin be ambula bahafi gajiha. enculeme cooha gaifi šulhe bujan i hoton be afame gaiha.

During the first campaign against Nikan Wailan, while attacking the town of Turun, Eidu took everyone [with him?] and climbed up [the walls?] first. When attacking the town of Sakji, he took it without the enemy being given enough time to be ready. He seized a large number of bovines and horses. In addition, he took troops, attacked the town of Šulhe Bujan and captured it.

fulahūn ulgiyan aniya bolori jakūn biyade. cooha gaifi bardai hoton be gaijara de. hunehe bira de isinafi. bira bisafi dooci ojorakū oho manggi. coohai niyalma be siran siran i futa hūwaitafi tatame doobufi. udu siliha cooha be gaifi. dobori dulime neneme genefi hoton de tafaka. hoton i dorgi cooha hūsutuleme alime gaifi afara de. keremu de aktalame yalufi afame. bethe de sirdan goifi. hoton i keremu suwaliyame hadaha manggi. sirdan be loho i lasihime bilafi ele fafuršame afame. susai funcere feye bahacibe bedererakū. jiduji hoton be gaiha. taidzu ambula saišafi baturu gebu buhe.

In the 8th month of the year of the Reddish Pig (1587), he took troops in order to capture the town of Barda. He reached the river Hunehe, but the river was overflowing and could not be crossed. He had the soldiers tied together with ropes and, pulling, he had them cross the river. He took some crack troops with him and went ahead during the night and climbed up the city walls. The garrison of the town was fighting strongly, and while he was straddling the rampart and fighting, he got hit in the foot by an arrow. After the rampart was altogether overtaken(?), he used his sword to break the arrow. Although he had received more than fifty wounds, he did not withdraw and ended up capturing the town. Nurhaci lavished much praise on him and gave him the title of 'Baturu' ['Hero'].
The taking of Barda, as depicted in the Veritable Records (Yargiyan kooli/實錄). Eidu is in the top right corner, shooting his bow:
Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidu
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Re: Guyome's log [LAD, LAT, MAN, OCC, PER, YID]

Postby Ezra » Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:32 pm

A very nice script! And it seems, they use spaces unlike Chinese or Japanese.
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guyome
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Re: Guyome's log [LAD, LAT, MAN, OCC, PER, YID]

Postby guyome » Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:54 pm

I find it to be a beautiful script indeed! The Manchus slightly reworked the Mongolian alphabet in the year 1599. The Mongols had adopted the Old Uyghur alphabet, which in turm came from the Sogdian alphabet, which came from the Syriac alphabet, which came from the Aramaic alphabet, making the Arabic and Manchu scripts, for instance, distant cousins.

Yes, they used spaces and punctuation: one dot for our comma, two dots for our full stop. But these are used rather inconsistently. In my transliterations, I generally keep the Manchu system to avoid adding a supplementary layer of interpretation to the Manchu text.

Modern Sibe publications, on the other hand, use the same punctuation system as English, as can be seen below:
sibeshuwen10-35.jpg
sibeshuwen10-35.jpg (82.12 KiB) Viewed 150 times
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