Not a lot done lately because of other obligations.
Manchu
Turns out I was wrong, no family feud between cousins, not yet at least. A feud did take place though between one of the cousins and his uncle (the father of the other cousin in the story). Ingratitude (real or perceived as such) together with financial wrongs (real or perceived as such) are an explosive cocktail. Uncle is now dead, killed by an excess of anger, it remains to be seen how the story will unfold from now on.
Ladino
- Kurso para adelantos lisyon 13 (only one left), plenty of useful expressions
- finished reading through El Ipohondriozo. I didn't find the third act as good as the first two but I don't know if it is due to the adaptation or to the original. I will try and reread the book in the near future
- started reading El Sekreto del Mudo (The mute man's Secret), a 300-page novel published in 1953. The story takes place during WW2 and the main characters so far are a young married couple in their twenties. She is Catholic, he is Jewish; she is in Paris, he has been arrested and sent to Auschwitz.
This novel wouldn't be my first choice but, before incorporating texts in Rashi in my reading routine, I want to read a long text in Latin script. Compared to reading in Rashi, it allows me to become more familiar with vocab and verbal forms because I can read more in less time
- took advantage of a train trip to listen to Eliezer Papo's second presentation on the Meam Loez. Slightly more difficult to follow than the first one but very interesting nevertheless.
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Re: Occitan, Manchu, Yiddish and Latin
Last edited by guyome on Fri May 29, 2020 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Occitan, Manchu, Yiddish and Latin
Occitan
Bagatouni, a novel published by Valèri Bernard in 1894, is very high on my Occitan reading list, both for its topic (social dereliction in the popular neighbourhoods of Marseille) and the fact that it is written in the Marseille dialect. It is precisely the latter aspect that drew criticism when the book was published anew in 2014 (this time in Classical spelling). Someone so disliked the fact that Bagato(u)ni was written in "hyperdialecticalised" Occitan that he wrote an article about that.
Extracts from the article (translation mine, please tell me if you spot a mistake/infelicity):
Personally, I am rather fond of dialectal diversity in the languages I study and my instinctive reaction to a call for standardisation is to bemoan the loss which would ensue rather than to celebrate this achievement. That being said, some standardisation in some contexts (teaching for instance) is unavoidable and already takes place anyway, so it's not like it should or could be entirely rejected.
With this in mind and for what it's worth, I don't think the article above makes a very strong case for standardisation.
1) Its focus on the reedition of Bagatoni seems out of place to me. Even if we accept the need for standardisation, does it mean reediting classics as they were originally published should be avoided? I think this case is a rather peculiar one and slightly different from engaging in this debate with a living author publishing books right now.
2) Bernard wrote around the year 1900, at a time when Occitan was still widely spoken. What a 21st c. critic takes as "hyperdialectalised (and therefore difficult) language" was probably more accessible to readers in 1900.
3) Saying that Bernard's work is that of a dialectologist and less literary because of its hyperdialectical language is something I don't understand. Bernard could have used a more standard language but chose not to. Obviously, he published the work he wanted to, even if that meant making it slightly harder to read. Isn't that the mark of a literary work: not compromising on the way you want to express yourself? Is a work more literary if the author modifies it just to make it more readable/marketable?
4) I highly doubt there is need for 3 years of university-level dialectology classes before tackling Bagatoni. I read around 10/20 pages of it and found it very readable. If I can do it with my limited Occitan, I doubt it would be a problem for many readers. I don't want to push this point too much though, I know not everyone reacts in the same way to variation and unfamiliar words/grammar. It is also possible that I'll change my mind after having read the whole thing.
5) Standardisation is presented as necessary to save the language, but nowhere are we really told how and why this would work. The last sentence I quote smacks of false dilemma: Occitan is to be either dialectal-and-dead or standardised-and-alive. In the same way, a sentence like "Meanwhile, the language is dying because of the war that is waged against it, and also because of its lack of unity" puts lack of standardisation as one the two main causes for the demise of Occitan but without even attempting to support this with any kind of facts. It is so because the author says so.
6) It seems to forget that some standardisation has already taken place naturally, if only because many dialectal varieties are dead/dying. Who would be able to write a novel in the Marseille dialect today?
7) A process of standardisation has taken place in various minority languages (Irish, Breton, Welsh, Basque, Romantsch,...) and the results are not uniform. I suspect then that the current state these languages are in is due in no small part to circumstances unrelated to the issue of standardisation per se.
8) If we accept the need for standardisation, the question still remains: exactly what kind of standardisation will take place? Should dialects still be allowed? Should there be only one standard? Would the standard be used in some areas only(administration, teaching,...)?
9) Finally, I find the only details given by the author about the process of standardisation he envisions quite revealing: the three acknowledged southern dialectal areas (Gascon, Languedocian, Provençal) are granted a standard of their own but the northern dialects (Limousin, Auvergnat, Vivaro-Alpine) are to be fused into one Northern Standard. This disregard for northern varieties of Occitan is nothing new but, together with point#1 and the call for rewriting books, it certainly makes me think that the questions raised in point #8 will be solved by a (not so) gradual erasure of the dialects, rather than by allowing cohabitation.
On this topic and the fascination for standardisation, there is a very interesting text by Eric Fraj: Quin occitan per deman? (French version). I'd post extracts but this post is already far too long
Bagatouni, a novel published by Valèri Bernard in 1894, is very high on my Occitan reading list, both for its topic (social dereliction in the popular neighbourhoods of Marseille) and the fact that it is written in the Marseille dialect. It is precisely the latter aspect that drew criticism when the book was published anew in 2014 (this time in Classical spelling). Someone so disliked the fact that Bagato(u)ni was written in "hyperdialecticalised" Occitan that he wrote an article about that.
Extracts from the article (translation mine, please tell me if you spot a mistake/infelicity):
When it comes to minority/endangered languages, the topic of standardisation comes up not infrequently and is one that is worth discussing even if, in my opinion, definitive conclusions are an elusive goal.[After praising the content of the book, the author shifts his attention to the form in which this content is cloaked]
Sus la forma, dirai qu’aqueste roman es la sintèsi de çò qu’aborissi mai. Nos es servit dins una lenga iperdialectalizada. Valèri Berbard emplega lo parlar de Marselha dins sos particularismes pus… particulars. Auriá pogut emplegar un provençal mejan qu’auriá permés una lectura pus aisida, mas non! Òm diriá que l’autor a volgut far òbra, non pas literària, mas de dialectologia. Es una mena de jòc que los occitans aiman plan.
As far as form is concerned, I'll say that this novel is the epitome of what I loathe the most. It is presented to us in an hyperdialectalised language. Valèri Bernard uses the speech variety from Marseille in its most peculiar...peculiarisms. He could have used a middle Provençal which would have made reading easier, but no! It seems like the author was concerned with dialectology, not literature. This is a kind of game Occitans like a lot.
Aquò rai! Èra benlèu de mòda. Çò que compreni mas qu’ai de mal d’acceptar es que mon amiga, la valenta Domenja Blanchard, age volgut servar aquela lenga particularizanta al possible. Agèri l’escasença de ne parlar milanta còps amb ela. Tocant a la normalizacion-estandardizacion de la lenga a una vision als antipòdes de la meuna. Es pas la sola. Aquí ont ieu vesi dins l’iperdialectalitat un empach al desvolopament de la difusion sociala de la lenga, d’autres se trachan pas que de la riquesa dialectala de la lenga. Se congostan de sa diversitat infinida e son esparpalhament sideral. Es un vejaire que, plan solide, se respècta. Cadun ven prene al rastelièr la pastura que li conven melhor e que prèsa mai. Mentretant, d’aquel temps, la lenga crèba de la guèrra que li es facha, e tanben de sa manca d’unitat. (...)
Ok! Maybe that was the fashion. What I understand but have trouble accepting is that my friend, the brave Domenja Blanchard, wanted to keep intact this most particularising language. I had the occasion to speak about that many times with her. As regards the normalisation-standardisation of the language, she holds views entirely opposed to mine. She is not the only one. While I see hyperdialectalisation as preventing social diffusion of the language, others only see the dialectal treasures of the language. They are delighted by its diversity without end and its sidereal scattering. This is a point of view which, for sure, can be respected. Each one takes from the rack the best fodder for him and the one he values most. Meanwhile, the language is dying because of the war that is waged against it, and also because of its lack of unity. (...)
Per ma part, contunhi de pensar que se volèm interessar lo public a la lectura, li cal prepausar d’òbras literàrias legiblas. Li cal porgir d’òbras dins unes vestits lengatgièrs simples e dirèctament comprensibles. Se cal aver fach tres ans de dialectologia occitana aplicada a l’Universitat Pau Valèri abans de poder començar a legir, se caldrà pas estonar, puèi, que las vendas de romans siaguen en regression.
As far as I am concerned, I still think that if we want to draw the public to reading, we should present him with readable literary works. We should offer him works in a simple linguistic garb and immediately understandable. If one has to study applied dialectology in a university for three years before starting to read, we should not be surprised if sales of novels are going down.
Ai consciéncia que ma preconizacion d’un provençal mejan e unic (normalizat), d’un gascon mejan e unic (normalizat), d’un nòrd-occitan mejan e unic (normalizat) e d’un lengadocian mejan e unic (normalizat), es un apauriment relatiu de la lenga (tras que relatiu). Ai tanben consciéncia que l’unificacion de cadun dels dialèctes es per nautres lo sol mejan de salvar la lenga, se se pòt encara salvar. Entre una polida lenga mirgalhada, mas mòrta, e una polida lenga mai ressarrada e viva, ma causida es lèu facha.
I am aware that my recommendation of a middle and single (normalised) Provençal, of a middle and single (normalised) Gascon, of a middle and single (normalised) North-Occitan and of a middle and single (normalised) Languedocian, is a relative impoverishment of the language (extremely relative). I am also aware that unifiying of each one of the dialects is for us the only way to save the language, if it still can be. It is a no-brainer for me to choose between a beautiful, many-coloured, but dead tongue and a beautiful, more restricted and alive tongue.
Personally, I am rather fond of dialectal diversity in the languages I study and my instinctive reaction to a call for standardisation is to bemoan the loss which would ensue rather than to celebrate this achievement. That being said, some standardisation in some contexts (teaching for instance) is unavoidable and already takes place anyway, so it's not like it should or could be entirely rejected.
With this in mind and for what it's worth, I don't think the article above makes a very strong case for standardisation.
1) Its focus on the reedition of Bagatoni seems out of place to me. Even if we accept the need for standardisation, does it mean reediting classics as they were originally published should be avoided? I think this case is a rather peculiar one and slightly different from engaging in this debate with a living author publishing books right now.
2) Bernard wrote around the year 1900, at a time when Occitan was still widely spoken. What a 21st c. critic takes as "hyperdialectalised (and therefore difficult) language" was probably more accessible to readers in 1900.
3) Saying that Bernard's work is that of a dialectologist and less literary because of its hyperdialectical language is something I don't understand. Bernard could have used a more standard language but chose not to. Obviously, he published the work he wanted to, even if that meant making it slightly harder to read. Isn't that the mark of a literary work: not compromising on the way you want to express yourself? Is a work more literary if the author modifies it just to make it more readable/marketable?
4) I highly doubt there is need for 3 years of university-level dialectology classes before tackling Bagatoni. I read around 10/20 pages of it and found it very readable. If I can do it with my limited Occitan, I doubt it would be a problem for many readers. I don't want to push this point too much though, I know not everyone reacts in the same way to variation and unfamiliar words/grammar. It is also possible that I'll change my mind after having read the whole thing.
5) Standardisation is presented as necessary to save the language, but nowhere are we really told how and why this would work. The last sentence I quote smacks of false dilemma: Occitan is to be either dialectal-and-dead or standardised-and-alive. In the same way, a sentence like "Meanwhile, the language is dying because of the war that is waged against it, and also because of its lack of unity" puts lack of standardisation as one the two main causes for the demise of Occitan but without even attempting to support this with any kind of facts. It is so because the author says so.
6) It seems to forget that some standardisation has already taken place naturally, if only because many dialectal varieties are dead/dying. Who would be able to write a novel in the Marseille dialect today?
7) A process of standardisation has taken place in various minority languages (Irish, Breton, Welsh, Basque, Romantsch,...) and the results are not uniform. I suspect then that the current state these languages are in is due in no small part to circumstances unrelated to the issue of standardisation per se.
8) If we accept the need for standardisation, the question still remains: exactly what kind of standardisation will take place? Should dialects still be allowed? Should there be only one standard? Would the standard be used in some areas only(administration, teaching,...)?
9) Finally, I find the only details given by the author about the process of standardisation he envisions quite revealing: the three acknowledged southern dialectal areas (Gascon, Languedocian, Provençal) are granted a standard of their own but the northern dialects (Limousin, Auvergnat, Vivaro-Alpine) are to be fused into one Northern Standard. This disregard for northern varieties of Occitan is nothing new but, together with point#1 and the call for rewriting books, it certainly makes me think that the questions raised in point #8 will be solved by a (not so) gradual erasure of the dialects, rather than by allowing cohabitation.
On this topic and the fascination for standardisation, there is a very interesting text by Eric Fraj: Quin occitan per deman? (French version). I'd post extracts but this post is already far too long
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Re: Occitan, Manchu, Yiddish and Latin
guyome wrote:3) Saying that Bernard's work is that of a dialectologist and less literary because of its hyperdialectical language is something I don't understand. Bernard could have used a more standard language but chose not to. Obviously, he published the work he wanted to, even if that meant making it slightly harder to read. Isn't that the mark of a literary work: not compromising on the way you want to express yourself? Is a work more literary if the author modifies it just to make it more readable/marketable?
This reminds me of how the term "literary language" tends to be used in Russian: in practice it's just the term we use for the concept of the standard language. In the Soviet paradigm a literary language either emerges as a supradialectal norm in written literature (not necessarily fiction) by speakers of one or many dialects of the language, or is consciously developed to play this role of the supradialectal norm, especially in the cases of languages that had little to no written literature prior to the Soviet literacy and standardization campaigns. The use of vocabulary or grammatical structures from the more marginalized dialects in fictional dialogue is recognized as a legitimate feature of the "artistic style" within the literary language, but otherwise frowned upon in non-fictional literature and to some extent even in fictional narrations. The views on prescriptivism and the place and role of "the working people's common speech" in literature evolved throughout Soviet history, but the late Soviet consensus that still survives in our education system to some extent is that certain ways of speaking have no place in writing, no matter how common they might be in everyday speech. Still, reverence for the literary classics makes it so that modern editions are highly unlikely to "standardize" dialectal features that appear in older works; at most they'll modernize the orthography and add footnotes or commentary for words and phrases most modern audiences aren't likely to understand.
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guyome
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Re: Occitan, Manchu, Yiddish and Latin
Thanks, vonPeterhof! I know a bit about the Soviet attempts at developing a "suitable" Soviet Yiddish but knew nothing about their language policy towards Russian.
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Re: Occitan, Manchu, Yiddish and Latin
I have finished working through the Kurso para adelantos, so my daily routine is now made entirely of reading/listening to native material. That means I may post slightly less often since there is no real point in me posting just to mention I've read 20 more pages of such and such book.
Latin
I keep on reading Martini's De Bello Tartarico and occasionally comparing it with Manchu material. Sometimes it is almost like reading two very different stories. The basic framework remains the same but it seems Martini managed to get almost every date and exact fact wrong (not that I blame him for it, given the situation he was in).
Manchu
- Finished story #4 in the Ba dung tiyan collection, not one I liked very much and I really had to push myself to reach the end. I wanted to read something different afterwards so I...
- ...started reading Sibe uksurai irgen siden jube, vol. 1, a book of Sibe folktales published in 1984
- started reading 满語故事譯粹, a book of short tales and animal stories published in Taiwan in 1993.
Ladino
- Reading El Sekreto del Mudo, currenty on page 145. It is not a particularly difficult read, I'd say that the amount of unknown words varies from 1 to 5 per page and context makes most of these understandable
- listened to Eliezer Papo's third lecture on the Meam Loez. This one was easier to follow than the last one and touched on many interesting topics: language standardisation, dialectal variation, folktales reworked into Talmudic stories.
The main text for this lecture was the following story about Roman emperor Hadrian on his way to crush the Bar Kokhba revolt in the 130s AD. (the aftermath of which would earn him the dubious honour of having his name followed by the curse "may his bones be crushed" in Rabbinic literature):
Linguistic features that were new to me (some of them were commented upon during the lecture):
- guestros for vuestros (not in the story above)
- past tense in -astes/-istes instead of -ates/-ites
- use of eres instead of sos
- future ternas wasn't entirely new (it appears in El Sekreto de Mudo)
Source of the text: Meam Loez, Vayikra (Leviticus), parasha Kedoshim, chapter 2 (p. 90-91 of the pdf). Eliezer Papo published a transliteration of the whole text on Facebook but I probably typed mine from a different edition which may explain why there are some (minor) differences.
Latin
I keep on reading Martini's De Bello Tartarico and occasionally comparing it with Manchu material. Sometimes it is almost like reading two very different stories. The basic framework remains the same but it seems Martini managed to get almost every date and exact fact wrong (not that I blame him for it, given the situation he was in).
Manchu
- Finished story #4 in the Ba dung tiyan collection, not one I liked very much and I really had to push myself to reach the end. I wanted to read something different afterwards so I...
- ...started reading Sibe uksurai irgen siden jube, vol. 1, a book of Sibe folktales published in 1984
- started reading 满語故事譯粹, a book of short tales and animal stories published in Taiwan in 1993.
Ladino
- Reading El Sekreto del Mudo, currenty on page 145. It is not a particularly difficult read, I'd say that the amount of unknown words varies from 1 to 5 per page and context makes most of these understandable
- listened to Eliezer Papo's third lecture on the Meam Loez. This one was easier to follow than the last one and touched on many interesting topics: language standardisation, dialectal variation, folktales reworked into Talmudic stories.
The main text for this lecture was the following story about Roman emperor Hadrian on his way to crush the Bar Kokhba revolt in the 130s AD. (the aftermath of which would earn him the dubious honour of having his name followed by the curse "may his bones be crushed" in Rabbinic literature):
There is a follow-up story, in which a neighbour tries to get rich by bringing Hadrian basket of apples, etc., but that doesn't end well for himI topamos ke akontesio maase in Andrianos, shehik atsmaot, ke paso por el kamino de Tevaria i vido un ombre viejo ke estava plantando unos arvoles. Le disho Andrianos al dito viejo: "Kero ke me digas de ke edad eres." Le disho a el: "De edad de sien anyos." Le disho a el Andrianos: "Siendo ke eres de esta edad, tan viejo, ke bushkas a penar i lazdrar para otros?" Le disho a el el dito viejo: "Mi sinyor rey, yo los sembro i si el Dio me dara zehut, komere yo de eyos i si no lo komeran mis ijos." Le disho ael el rey: "Por tu vida, te rogo ke si ternas zehut de komer de eyos, ke me le des a saver." I se fue el rey a su kamino i se detuvo en la gera tres anyos. Despues ke bolto el rey a su lugar, lo alkanso a saver el dito viejo i incho un sesto de igos buenos de los arvoles ke sembro i se fue delantre el rey i le disho ael: "Mi Sinyor rey, toma estos igos ke te trushi prezente, ke yo so el viejo ke me topastes por kamino agora tres anyos kuando te ivas a la gera i me dishistes ke para ke penava para otros i agora, mi Sinyor rey, ya me dio zehut el Shem Yitbarah i me alkanso a komer de eyos i esto es el fruto ke me salio." Les disho el rey a sus esklavos: "Tomalde este sesto de igos i inchilde en su lugar dukados." Le disheron su ekslavos al rey: "Sinyor rey, ke es este kavod tanto ke le azes a este djudio por un sesto de igos ke te trusho?" Les disho a eyos el rey: "Su kreador lo onro de azerlo de esta edad i yo no lo onrare?" I se lo inchiron el sesto de dukados asigun komando el rey i lo enbiaron a su kaza leshalom.
(My translation:)
And we find that a story happened to Hadrian, may his bones be crushed. He was on the road to Tiberias and saw an old man who was planting some trees. Hadrian said the this old man: "I'd like you to tell me how old you are." He said to him: "A hundred years old." Hadrian said to him: "Since this is your age, so old, what are you looking for by toiling and working hard for others?" This old man said to him: "Your Majesty, I sow them and if God grants it to me, I will eat from them. And if not, my sons will." The king said to him: "On your life, I ask you, if you get to eat from them, let me know." And the king went his way and was busy with the war for three years. After the king went back to his place, this old man got to know about it and he filled a basket with good figs from the trees he had sown and he went before the king and said to him: "Your Majesty, take these figs that I'm bringing you now, for I am the old man you found on the road three years ago, when you were going to war. And you told me 'why are you toiling for others?'. And now, Your Majesty, The Blessed One [=God] has granted it to me and I got to eat from them and this is the result I got." The king said to his slaves: "Take this basket of figs and fill it with gold coins instead." His slaves said to the king: "Your Majesty, why would you honour this Jew in such a way for a basket a figs he brought you?" The king said to them: "His creator honoured him with reaching such an old age and I would not honour him?" And they filled the basket with gold coins as the king had ordered and they sent him home in peace.
Linguistic features that were new to me (some of them were commented upon during the lecture):
- guestros for vuestros (not in the story above)
- past tense in -astes/-istes instead of -ates/-ites
- use of eres instead of sos
- future ternas wasn't entirely new (it appears in El Sekreto de Mudo)
Source of the text: Meam Loez, Vayikra (Leviticus), parasha Kedoshim, chapter 2 (p. 90-91 of the pdf). Eliezer Papo published a transliteration of the whole text on Facebook but I probably typed mine from a different edition which may explain why there are some (minor) differences.
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guyome
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Re: Occitan, Manchu, Yiddish and Latin
Latin and Manchu took a back seat this weekend. I read some pages of De Bello Tartarico but that's all.
Occitan
I've started reading and listening more in Occitan but I feel that doing too much in this area could interfere with Ladino. For the foreseeable future, I'll keep reading bits here and there but will probably not delve deeper until Ladino feels more solid.
Manchu
Reached story #11 in 满語故事譯粹. The stories are not particularly Manchu/Sibe in origin and are translations/adaptations of world classics. For instance, #10 was Esopus/Phaedrus' The Wolf and the Lamb.
Nevertheless, they are pleasant and interesting also from a linguistic point of view. Despite the title of the book (满語, "Manchu language"), they make use of many Sibe features. This is not a huge problem since written Sibe is very, very close to Classical Manchu but it means that there's the occasional word or sentence that you'd be hard pressed to explain without knowing a bit about Sibe.
Content wise, Sibe uksurai irgen siden jube is made of 'real' Sibe stories and should prove more interesting but I will go back to it only after finishing 满語故事譯粹.
Ladino
- Listened to the fourth lecture on the Meam Loez but I couldn't follow it well enough for me to be satisfied. As I listened to it in the streets, I fully blame cars and the like for noises I could have done without! The matter at hand was also more focused on Biblical commentary as such which is harder to follow
- I just finished reading El Sekreto del mudo, a review of which you can read below in halting Ladino...(corrections welcome, of course!)
Oy eskapi de meldar El Sekreto del mudo, ke es un romanso en ladino, un de los pokos ke fueron publikados despues de la sigunda gerra mondiala. Agora vo a perkurar de eskrivir unas kuantas kozas sovre este livro porke no es kolay para mi de uzar el ladino i por esto kale ke eskriva mas i mas.
El livro se empesa en el 1942 (o 1943, no m'akodro), kuando los Alemanes okupan la sivdad de Paris i la Fransia entera tambien. La primera persona a la kuala mozotros, los meldadores, enkontramos es Micheline, una ermoza (por siguro!) jovena franseza, ke bive ainda in Paris. Eya es katolika ama se kazo 8(?) anyos antes kon un mediko ke se yama Robert Kassen. Komo este ultimo era djudio fue mandado por los Alemanes (antes ke s'empesa el livro) en un kampo de konsentrasion en Polonya ke oy todos konosimos: Auschwitz. Micheline kedo en Paris i va a perkurar de salvar a su marido.
Un dia Micheline fue a la Kommandantur para diskutir de la liberasion de su marido kon un ofisier aleman. Ama ayi akontesio ke Micheline arrovo un dokumento para salvar al ermano de su marido i lo dio a la resistensia. Pokas semanas/mezes despues, Micheline es arrestada por la Gestapo i torturada por eyos.
En Auschwitz, su marido Robert lavora komo mediko i perkura de ayudar a munchos ama no puede azer todo lo ke kero. Tambien, malgrado los echos terivles ke se akontesen en este lugar, Robert topo un buen amigo ke es djudio de Saloniko: un mudo ke se yama Leon Errera.
Los mezes pasan, Micheline i Robert estan todos dos en las manos de los Alemanes ama en 1944/45 sus situasion se troka porke los Nazis se fuyen i de Paris i de Auschwitz. Agora Micheline, Robert (i su amigo Leon) estan liberos. Ama Micheline ainda no save ke su marido sovrebivio i eya no kere kedar mas en Paris. Se va a la Gresia i lavora por la Croix-Rouge (Red Cross). Poko tiempo despues, eya va a saver ke su marido es bivo i aspera a eya en Paris. Micheline atorna a Paris i se enkontra de muevo kon Robert.
Na los echos! De ke puedo dizir sovre este livro? A mi me izo muncho plazer meldar un romanso largo i eskrito en ladino. Ama Ben-Rubi eskrivio un romanso ke asemeja kon las novelas de amor ke meldi antes. Kere dizir ke uzo un karar de adjektivos i biervos para ke el meldador sea esmovido. A mi no me plaze muncho esta manera de eskrivir i parese un poko forastera en un istoria ke se pasa mientres kampos de konsentrasion i ofisieros nazis.
Ama no kero i no devo dizir ke Ben-Rubi no es un buen autor, yo sé ke gano algunos premios literarios por su ovra. I en los kapitulos sovre Leon Errera ke atorna a Saloniko i topa su kerida sivdad kaji vazia de djudios son muy bien eskritos. Meldandola, estava pensando ke esta parte del livro era la mijor, porke Ben-Rubi uzo su eksperiensa personala (el era de Saloniko) i ayi no tuvo menester de emplear tantos biervos para ke el meldador syenta una grande emosion.
Occitan
I've started reading and listening more in Occitan but I feel that doing too much in this area could interfere with Ladino. For the foreseeable future, I'll keep reading bits here and there but will probably not delve deeper until Ladino feels more solid.
Manchu
Reached story #11 in 满語故事譯粹. The stories are not particularly Manchu/Sibe in origin and are translations/adaptations of world classics. For instance, #10 was Esopus/Phaedrus' The Wolf and the Lamb.
Nevertheless, they are pleasant and interesting also from a linguistic point of view. Despite the title of the book (满語, "Manchu language"), they make use of many Sibe features. This is not a huge problem since written Sibe is very, very close to Classical Manchu but it means that there's the occasional word or sentence that you'd be hard pressed to explain without knowing a bit about Sibe.
Content wise, Sibe uksurai irgen siden jube is made of 'real' Sibe stories and should prove more interesting but I will go back to it only after finishing 满語故事譯粹.
Ladino
- Listened to the fourth lecture on the Meam Loez but I couldn't follow it well enough for me to be satisfied. As I listened to it in the streets, I fully blame cars and the like for noises I could have done without! The matter at hand was also more focused on Biblical commentary as such which is harder to follow
- I just finished reading El Sekreto del mudo, a review of which you can read below in halting Ladino...(corrections welcome, of course!)
Oy eskapi de meldar El Sekreto del mudo, ke es un romanso en ladino, un de los pokos ke fueron publikados despues de la sigunda gerra mondiala. Agora vo a perkurar de eskrivir unas kuantas kozas sovre este livro porke no es kolay para mi de uzar el ladino i por esto kale ke eskriva mas i mas.
El livro se empesa en el 1942 (o 1943, no m'akodro), kuando los Alemanes okupan la sivdad de Paris i la Fransia entera tambien. La primera persona a la kuala mozotros, los meldadores, enkontramos es Micheline, una ermoza (por siguro!) jovena franseza, ke bive ainda in Paris. Eya es katolika ama se kazo 8(?) anyos antes kon un mediko ke se yama Robert Kassen. Komo este ultimo era djudio fue mandado por los Alemanes (antes ke s'empesa el livro) en un kampo de konsentrasion en Polonya ke oy todos konosimos: Auschwitz. Micheline kedo en Paris i va a perkurar de salvar a su marido.
Un dia Micheline fue a la Kommandantur para diskutir de la liberasion de su marido kon un ofisier aleman. Ama ayi akontesio ke Micheline arrovo un dokumento para salvar al ermano de su marido i lo dio a la resistensia. Pokas semanas/mezes despues, Micheline es arrestada por la Gestapo i torturada por eyos.
En Auschwitz, su marido Robert lavora komo mediko i perkura de ayudar a munchos ama no puede azer todo lo ke kero. Tambien, malgrado los echos terivles ke se akontesen en este lugar, Robert topo un buen amigo ke es djudio de Saloniko: un mudo ke se yama Leon Errera.
Los mezes pasan, Micheline i Robert estan todos dos en las manos de los Alemanes ama en 1944/45 sus situasion se troka porke los Nazis se fuyen i de Paris i de Auschwitz. Agora Micheline, Robert (i su amigo Leon) estan liberos. Ama Micheline ainda no save ke su marido sovrebivio i eya no kere kedar mas en Paris. Se va a la Gresia i lavora por la Croix-Rouge (Red Cross). Poko tiempo despues, eya va a saver ke su marido es bivo i aspera a eya en Paris. Micheline atorna a Paris i se enkontra de muevo kon Robert.
Na los echos! De ke puedo dizir sovre este livro? A mi me izo muncho plazer meldar un romanso largo i eskrito en ladino. Ama Ben-Rubi eskrivio un romanso ke asemeja kon las novelas de amor ke meldi antes. Kere dizir ke uzo un karar de adjektivos i biervos para ke el meldador sea esmovido. A mi no me plaze muncho esta manera de eskrivir i parese un poko forastera en un istoria ke se pasa mientres kampos de konsentrasion i ofisieros nazis.
Ama no kero i no devo dizir ke Ben-Rubi no es un buen autor, yo sé ke gano algunos premios literarios por su ovra. I en los kapitulos sovre Leon Errera ke atorna a Saloniko i topa su kerida sivdad kaji vazia de djudios son muy bien eskritos. Meldandola, estava pensando ke esta parte del livro era la mijor, porke Ben-Rubi uzo su eksperiensa personala (el era de Saloniko) i ayi no tuvo menester de emplear tantos biervos para ke el meldador syenta una grande emosion.
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guyome
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Re: Occitan, Manchu, Yiddish and Latin
Occitan
Some reading and listening. As I've said above, I'll probably keep working intensively on Ladino for the next few weeks, at which point I hope I'll be able to pick up Occitan without mixing it too much with Ladino.
Latin
I got some books back and started reading Justin's Philippic Histories. I remember buying these two volumes in a second-hand bookshop around 10 years ago but I never took the time to read them. Justin shortened a much longer work (now lost) by one Pompeius Trogus and so far it reads like a collection of anecdotes about rulers from Antiquity. I'll have no qualms about shifting to something else the minute it becomes boring but so far it has been ok.
Yiddish
I listened to 3/4 stories from the audiobook version of Bashevis Singer's Mayn tatns beysdin shtub. I've been thinking of reading the book alongside now that Singer's works are available for download. I'm not sure I'll find the time though.
Manchu
Reached story #21 in 满語故事譯粹. Apart from the occasional sentence or word I can't find in Classical Manchu dictionaries, it is not a difficult read.
Ladino
Ladino is still the language I spent most of my time on. At the moment, I'd like to have a better grasp of the conditional and imperfect subjunctive, both producing them and understanding how they are used. The textbooks I have are not terribly useful for this since they either don't say much or they mention specific cases without giving any overview. If my experience with other languages is any guide, I don't think just reading/listening more will be enough to sort this out because 1) sentences using these tenses are less common, 2) since I understand them anyway I tend to not consciously notice how the tenses are used, and 3) there's some leeway in when you have to use them in Ladino so everyone does his own thing, which adds to the difficulty of getting a clear idea of what's going on.
I've started my Rashi script reading program! My plan at the moment is to go through the short works digitised by the Bibliotheca Sefarad. Why only the short ones? Because I read rather slowly in Rashi and I feel it is easier to stay motivated when the end goal is not too distant. My totally arbitrary criterion is to read all the works counting 30 pages or less. I guess there's around 20 of them, which should keep me occupied for a while since I've managed to read one each day so far:
- Kazamientos embroyados (1902, translation from Hebrew). The story takes place in Jerusalem, still under Ottoman rule at the time. A new law has been announced according to which Jews won't be allowed to marry before 30 (in order for them to have less children and slowly wither away) and this has thrown everyone in the city into a marriage frenzy: best marry before it's too late!
- Lulu (1902, translation from Hebrew). Interestingly enough, the author is Hemda Ben-Yehuda, the wife of Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, the man behind the revival of spoken Hebrew. The story has a very transparent message: Lulu, a young girl from a traditional Jewish Yemeni background, is beaten by a husband she didn't choose and abused by her parents when she refuses to remarry. Only by joining a Zionist group, learning Hebrew and changing her name in the process, is she able to lead a dignified life
- Nikola el Primero i el djudio (1902, translation from Hebrew). How a Jewish innkeeper from Russia managed to get Czar Nicholas I to change his mind about a law forbidding the Jews to own businesses in villages and the countryside. A legendary account for sure, but the restrictions imposed on where Jews could live in the Russian Empire were all too real.
I have embarked on reading the Ladino short dialogues published in the Lettre Sépharade starting from issue #9 (and I'll probably end up reading all the Ladino content in each issue since there isn't that much). The goal is to acquire new vocab and get more input for normal, spoken Ladino.
Issues #5 and #7 have a nice text by Sara Confino-Golub, from Bulgary. It seems to me that spoken Ladino uses more words of Turkish origin than written Ladino and that the Balkan dialects uses even more of them than other dialects. Just my feeling though, it will be interesting to see if it really is the case.
Apart from that, I listened to Eliezer Papo's fifth lecture on the Meam Loez and to the audio version of some articles in Şalom.
Linguistic "find" of the day in Nikola el Primero: the locution por modre "because of", which I guess comes from por amor de (exists also in Occitan), which evolved into por 'mor de and finally underwent the 'usual' -rd->-dr- metathesis.
Some reading and listening. As I've said above, I'll probably keep working intensively on Ladino for the next few weeks, at which point I hope I'll be able to pick up Occitan without mixing it too much with Ladino.
Latin
I got some books back and started reading Justin's Philippic Histories. I remember buying these two volumes in a second-hand bookshop around 10 years ago but I never took the time to read them. Justin shortened a much longer work (now lost) by one Pompeius Trogus and so far it reads like a collection of anecdotes about rulers from Antiquity. I'll have no qualms about shifting to something else the minute it becomes boring but so far it has been ok.
Yiddish
I listened to 3/4 stories from the audiobook version of Bashevis Singer's Mayn tatns beysdin shtub. I've been thinking of reading the book alongside now that Singer's works are available for download. I'm not sure I'll find the time though.
Manchu
Reached story #21 in 满語故事譯粹. Apart from the occasional sentence or word I can't find in Classical Manchu dictionaries, it is not a difficult read.
Ladino
Ladino is still the language I spent most of my time on. At the moment, I'd like to have a better grasp of the conditional and imperfect subjunctive, both producing them and understanding how they are used. The textbooks I have are not terribly useful for this since they either don't say much or they mention specific cases without giving any overview. If my experience with other languages is any guide, I don't think just reading/listening more will be enough to sort this out because 1) sentences using these tenses are less common, 2) since I understand them anyway I tend to not consciously notice how the tenses are used, and 3) there's some leeway in when you have to use them in Ladino so everyone does his own thing, which adds to the difficulty of getting a clear idea of what's going on.
I've started my Rashi script reading program! My plan at the moment is to go through the short works digitised by the Bibliotheca Sefarad. Why only the short ones? Because I read rather slowly in Rashi and I feel it is easier to stay motivated when the end goal is not too distant. My totally arbitrary criterion is to read all the works counting 30 pages or less. I guess there's around 20 of them, which should keep me occupied for a while since I've managed to read one each day so far:
- Kazamientos embroyados (1902, translation from Hebrew). The story takes place in Jerusalem, still under Ottoman rule at the time. A new law has been announced according to which Jews won't be allowed to marry before 30 (in order for them to have less children and slowly wither away) and this has thrown everyone in the city into a marriage frenzy: best marry before it's too late!
- Lulu (1902, translation from Hebrew). Interestingly enough, the author is Hemda Ben-Yehuda, the wife of Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, the man behind the revival of spoken Hebrew. The story has a very transparent message: Lulu, a young girl from a traditional Jewish Yemeni background, is beaten by a husband she didn't choose and abused by her parents when she refuses to remarry. Only by joining a Zionist group, learning Hebrew and changing her name in the process, is she able to lead a dignified life
- Nikola el Primero i el djudio (1902, translation from Hebrew). How a Jewish innkeeper from Russia managed to get Czar Nicholas I to change his mind about a law forbidding the Jews to own businesses in villages and the countryside. A legendary account for sure, but the restrictions imposed on where Jews could live in the Russian Empire were all too real.
I have embarked on reading the Ladino short dialogues published in the Lettre Sépharade starting from issue #9 (and I'll probably end up reading all the Ladino content in each issue since there isn't that much). The goal is to acquire new vocab and get more input for normal, spoken Ladino.
Issues #5 and #7 have a nice text by Sara Confino-Golub, from Bulgary. It seems to me that spoken Ladino uses more words of Turkish origin than written Ladino and that the Balkan dialects uses even more of them than other dialects. Just my feeling though, it will be interesting to see if it really is the case.
Apart from that, I listened to Eliezer Papo's fifth lecture on the Meam Loez and to the audio version of some articles in Şalom.
Linguistic "find" of the day in Nikola el Primero: the locution por modre "because of", which I guess comes from por amor de (exists also in Occitan), which evolved into por 'mor de and finally underwent the 'usual' -rd->-dr- metathesis.
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nooj
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Re: Occitan, Manchu, Yiddish and Latin
Linguistic "find" of the day in Nikola el Primero: the locution por modre "because of", which I guess comes from por amor de (exists also in Occitan), which evolved into por 'mor de and finally underwent the 'usual' -rd->-dr- metathesis.
Exists in Galician-Portuguese and in Catalan too (per mor de) too. In Balearic Catalan at any rate. It's archaic in continental dialects.
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Dagane
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Re: Occitan, Manchu, Yiddish and Latin
nooj wrote:Linguistic "find" of the day in Nikola el Primero: the locution por modre "because of", which I guess comes from por amor de (exists also in Occitan), which evolved into por 'mor de and finally underwent the 'usual' -rd->-dr- metathesis.
Exists in Galician-Portuguese and in Catalan too (per mor de) too. In Balearic Catalan at any rate. It's archaic in continental dialects.
"Por mor de" exists in Spanish as well.
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guyome
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Re: Occitan, Manchu, Yiddish and Latin
Thanks, nooj and Dagane, for the details about por modre in other languages. In Occitan, I got the feeling that it is much more common in Gascon than elsewhere but my reading sample is too small for me to be sure of that.
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