Guyome's log

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guyome
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:25 pm

Maghrebi Arabic
Some time ago I ran into a stash of secondhand books for Maghrebi Arabic and did the only sensible thing: buying them all! I didn't really have any plan to learn the language but I still ended up spending a month working through one of these books. I was favorably impressed and thought I could post something about it.

Title: Cours d'arabe maghrébin
Authors: C. Canamas, M. Neyreneuf, C. Villet
Editions: 1979 (CIEM), 1985 (CIEM-L'Harmattan), 2005 (L'Harmattan, revamped edition, available as a pdf)
Audio: 4 CDs

There are 25 lessons, teaching around 500 words in all. Each lesson is made of five sections: a short dialogue, a vocab list, pictures, exercises and grammar notes (see pictures below).

According to the introduction, the authors have tried to produce dialogues stripped of linguistic features that would be too local. They acknowledge this gives the texts a rather artificial flavour. They also mention that their goal is not to teach some sort of standard Maghrebi Arabic ("which does not exist") but to give the learner the basic structures and vocabulary they'll need to later acquire a "real" spoken variety. Regional variants for basic vocabulary are given in the lessons.
The authors have also produced a follow-up course, Dossiers d'arabe maghrébin, which makes use of dialogues as spoken by Algerian/Moroccan/Tunisian speakers, without any modification. I haven't used it but I can post about it if someone is interested.

Another point worth mentioning: the course was written at a time when it was planned that French borrowings would be gradually phased out and replaced by words from Modern Standard Arabic. Consequently, the authors use these MSA words in the dialogues (but still mention the "normal", usually more common, word at the bottom of the page).
I don't know how sucessful this policy of getting rid of French borrowings has been. Mass immigration to and settlement in France has certainly altered the situation compared to that of the 1970s, when the course was written. After listening to several hours of Algerian radio shows, it seems to me that French is everywhere to be heard. And not just isolated words but whole phrases or sentences. So, my guess would be that the purification/Arabification movement initiated post independence hasn't been too successful and that the borrowings mentioned in the course, some of them at least, are probably still there and more common than their MSA counterparts. But I could well be mistaken, and the situation may vary depending on the country, the age of the speaker, etc.


I can't really say how effective the book is in the long run but I really enjoyed working through the first 15 lessons. My main complaint about most textbooks is that they introduce too much material too fast, and without enough exercises. This book avoids this pitfall and I found the pacing really well done. There is around 20 new words introduced in each lesson, 2-3 main grammar items, and 4-5 exercises. Each exercise is made of 5-10 substitution drills or Q&A, with the first two given in print in the 3rd section of each lessons. I found that was enough to learn and retain the material (I listened to the audio tracks several times of course).
Overall, I'd say the authors really went out of their way to produce a text that would be user friendly. This shows for instance in them splitting a conjugation over two lessons instead of hitting you straight with the full paradigm, creating three recap lessons (5bis, 10bis, 15bis), etc.
The dialogues are also well done, drawing from everyday life situations in France*: unemployement, children not wanting to go to school, buying new clothes and cursing about them being too expensive, etc. Translations are given at the end of the book, as well as a version in Arabic script (in the 2005 edition, the text in Arabic script has been placed inside the lessons).

*The course was originally written to teach Social Security workers in France the basic skills they'd need to communicate with immigrants from Morocca, Algeria and Tunisia.

Here are pictures of lesson 6 and 14. You can see how regional variants (AL-MA-TU) and MSA-French borrowings (məṣnaع = uzîn, "factory") are given below the vocab list.




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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Sun Apr 10, 2022 7:15 pm

Chaghatay
I have spent the last couple of days going through sections 6-15 of Ta:rïxï muqæddεs. That's around 20 pages of text, which is far from impressive but, as I said, dictionary work is not exactly quick and easy. Other than that, the text reads well. I encountered one new verbal form: the Voluntative.

I've noticed that I have looked significantly less words in the last sections than previously. Maybe down from 12-15/page to 8-10/page. Maybe it's just luck, maybe it's the result of me having learnt basic words. It's hard to tell with such a small sample.
I have jotted down roughly 300 words since I began reading Ta:rïxï muqæddεs. I think now is the time to do a light review of these since quite a few started cropping up again in the last sections I read.

My recent reading has also enabled me to answer some questions I had while reading the 1914 ABC-book (X toğrasida for instance). Maybe I'll go back and correct/improve these posts.

I also spent some time reading the beginning of the 1950 Uyghur Bible translation. I say "Uyghur" but "Eastern Turki" or "Late Chaghatay" may be more proper.
Despite having been published in 1950, this translation relies on the work and previous translations done as early as 1917 (in the case of the OT) by the Swedish Mission in Kashgar. Since the same team published both the 1950 Bible translation and Ta:rïxï muqæddεs (which is a summary of Biblical history), reading both texts at the same time is a great way to get more reading under my belt without having to tackle a wholly unfamiliar text.
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:21 am

Maghrebi Arabic

Title: Dossiers d'arabe Maghrébin
Authors: C. Canamas, A. Kaabi, M. Neyreneuf
Publisher/date of publication: CIEM/1982
Audio: exists but may be hard to locate since the Dossiers are out-of-print. The association Alphatis, who had a hand in producing the Dossiers, is still active and uses them in their level 3 courses. It could be that they offer them for sale.

The Dossiers are meant to follow the Cours d'arabe maghrébin and resemble it in many ways. The Dossiers differ from the Cours on two accounts though: 1) the texts are organised around topics rather than grammatical progression, 2) the dialogues are real ones, recorded as they were spoken (i.e. not stripped from local features), with only slight modifications, such as removing repetitions.

The Dossiers come in the form of 11 booklets:
- 1 for grammar (80 p.)
- 1 for lexicons (Ar-Fr and Fr-Ar) and translations of the dialogues (77 p.)
- 1 for the dialogues in Arabic script (93 p.)
- 8 for the dialogues-texts/notes/vocabulary/exercises (25-30 p. each).

Each one of these eight booklets contains first 8-10 dialogues and then 1-3 texts taken from older publications. The texts do not come with exercises. A rough count through the Ar-Fr lexicon suggests that the eight booklets cover roughly 1600 words and expressions.

I haven't worked through the Dossiers so I can only give my overall, shallow impression. As with the Cours, it seems the authors did everything they could to provide an easy-to-use, friendly text. Words in the Ar-Fr lexicon and examples in the Grammar are given with cross references to the text they appear in. Geographical origin of the speakers is shown in the table of each booklet but also at the beginning of each text, so you can easily focus on the dialect you're most interested in. The amount of new vocab in each text does not seem too overwhelming (although, without the audio, you don't get as much practice since only part of the exercises are printed).
As with the Cours there is something of a time capsule feel.

Some pictures (right-click and open in new tab if need be).
Grammar booklet


Transcription in Arabic script


The eight main booklets


Contents of the "Loisirs et fêtes" booklet


Typical dialogue


Typical text
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:55 am

Maghrebi Arabic
Third and last post in this mini-series about textbooks I found interesting. This one comes without audio, so I'm not sure how useful it would be. But I liked the very progressive approach it takes.

Title: Méthode active d'arabe dialectal (2 volumes, 127 and 142 p.)
Author: Y. Nekrouf
Publisher/publication date: Éditions de l'Étoile "Nejma"/1950s. There is no publication date in either volume but a circular from 1954 is mentioned at the begining of volume 2 and the method has obviously been published during the French Protectorate in Morocco, which ended in 1956.

The books were meant for use in schools and teach the Moroccan dialect. I don't know if Dialectal Arabic classes were mandatory during the French Protectorate but they seem to have been at least widespread enough and you can easily find French retirees reminiscing about learning/using the language.

Both books comprise 50 lessons each and teach 1100+ words overall. This makes for a rather leisurely pace. Lessons in Book I deal with various topics (school, shopping, being ill...), mostly from the perspective of a young boy. Book II is about school-life, life in the countryside, life in the city, and religious life. There are two lexicons (Ar-Fr and Fr-Ar), and a grammatical index as well, at the end of each volume.
The drawings and the overall 1950s feel are often charming but the books were published 70 years ago and it sometimes shows (looking at you Book II, lesson 32). It would be interesting to see how topics like relationships between Europeans and Moroccans are portrayed for instance.

Maiwenn, if you happen to read this, do you feel the language has changed a lot since then?

Book I




Book II


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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:43 pm

Chaghatay
Read sections 16-20 of Ta:rïxï muqæddεs and reviewed vocab from some of the earlier sections. The number of unknown words per page remains the same, around 8-10. That's too many for me to learn them all but not enough to prevent me from looking them all up. It's possible though that I get tired of all this tedious dictionary work at some point.

I've also spent some time sampling other texts in a slightly more dedicated manner than before. The goal was to ascertain how well my reading of 20th c. texts from Xinjiang was preparing me for earlier texts. For instance, I've read a couple of stories in Ármin Vámbéry's Ćagataische sprachstudien (1867).
Based on these short exploration trips, it seems that focusing on Eastern Turki/Late Chaghatay/etc. is no impediment to tackling earlier texts. I'm sure I'll become more aware of subtle differences in grammar and vocab if/when I delve deeper, but as far as developing basic skills are concerned it seems I can keep working at the kind of texts I am using at the moment.
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby Maiwenn » Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:23 am

guyome wrote:Title: Méthode active d'arabe dialectal (2 volumes, 127 and 142 p.)
Author: Y. Nekrouf
Publisher/publication date: Éditions de l'Étoile "Nejma"/1950s. There is no publication date in either volume but a circular from 1954 is mentioned at the begining of volume 2 and the method has obviously been published during the French Protectorate in Morocco, which ended in 1956.
...

Maiwenn, if you happen to read this, do you feel the language has changed a lot since then?


What a treasure you've found! I just wish it were also written in Arabic script. There are some vocabulary differences, but I don't know if that comes down to location or time. (My in laws in Agadir would call the beach "la plage" and a boat "bateau", but I imagine that Northern areas with greater Spanish influence would indeed use "playa" instead.) Modern Darija (depending on the speaker's age) would probably also include more English imports. I feel like even just since I began studying Darija that tv shows include more and more English expressions. I'll show my husband later and see what he thinks about it.

Update: Husband says book 2 lesson 26 sounds like "deux vieillards qui se parlent." I read lessons 26 of book 1 and 2 out loud to him. Book 1's lesson 26 only had one "out of use" term -- jebrek -- whereas book 2 had several.

The sentence "wach jebrek marid bzaf? واش جبرك مريض بزاف؟" would perhaps instead be
واش (الطبيب) لقاك مريض بزاف؟
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SC reading: 3819 / 10000 AR
SC reading: 3334 / 5000 FR
SC reading: 65 / 2500 DE :?

Corrections are always welcome. :)

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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:57 pm

Maiwenn, many thanks to you both for taking time to have a look at these! I appreciate it. And should I ever study Moroccan Arabic with these books, I'll make sure to heed your comments, lest I end up sounding too old-fashioned.

Having a closer look at lesson 50 in Book I, I noticed the word šānṭa "valise", which suspiciously looks like Ladino chanta "bag", a word Ladino borrowed from Ottoman Turkish (شنطة).
This makes its presence in Morocco a bit surprising to me since Morocco never was part of the Ottoman Empire. Algeria, on the other hand, was but the word seems absent from the few Algerian dialect dictionaries I could check, both modern and 19th c. ones. So where did Moroccan Arabic get šānṭa from? Ottoman merchants?

Edit. And seriously, what's up with seemingly every language even remotely connected with the Ottoman empire adopting all these Ottoman Turkish words for containers?
It's the second time I encounter one of these (see torba here). Were the Ottomans considered luggage specialists of some sort?
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby AroAro » Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:48 am

guyome wrote:Edit. And seriously, what's up with seemingly every language even remotely connected with the Ottoman empire adopting all these Ottoman Turkish words for containers?
It's the second time I encounter one of these (see torba here). Were the Ottomans considered luggage specialists of some sort?


And you can add to the list the words “geamantan” in Romanian and “чемодан” in Russian (meaning “suitcase”) that come from Ottoman Turkish but it apparently borrowed it from Persian “jâmedân”.
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Wed Apr 20, 2022 8:26 pm

Thanks, AroAro! I knew the word from Yiddish (טשעמאָדאַן) but had no idea it came from Persian!
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Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Mon May 02, 2022 4:33 pm

Manchu
Twitter kindly informed me that the National Palace Museum in Taiwan has made available online more than 400,000 Qing dynasty documents. A search for 滿文 turns up around 20,000 documents in Manchu.
Some of these, and probably the most interesting ones, have been available for a long time in facsimile, in publications such as 宮中檔康熙朝奏摺 (Kangxi era) or 年羹堯奏摺專輯 (memorials by Nian Gengyao), but it is always nice to have access to a good color image.
The interface (Chinese only) is easy enough to navigate and you can even download a copy of the documents.

Below part of a letter from In Ceng, the heir to the throne at the time, to his father the Kangxi emperor, while the latter was away hunting rabbits dealing with the Dzungars. As was usual, the emperor wrote his comments between the lines, using red ink.

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