Guyome's log

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
guyome
Blue Belt
Posts: 604
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:41 pm
Languages: French (N)
x 2436

Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:03 pm

Ladino/Yiddish
I started reading the Shivchei HaBesht in both Yiddish and Ladino. The Shivchei HaBesht is a collection of legends about the founder of Hasidism, Yisroel Baal Shem Tov.
The text was originally published in Hebrew in 1814 and in Yiddish the following year. The Ladino translation was first published in 1852 in Belgrade and later reprinted in Saloniko in 1872. Yiddish editions are everywhere to be found so I just picked up one from roughly the same time as the Ladino translation.

1852 Ladino edition
1872 Ladino edition

Manchu
I finally managed to get a copy of the second volume of 闲窗录梦, the Manchu diary of Mucihiyan! It's one of these (too) rare original Manchu works that have come down to us from the Qing dynasty.
Mucihiyan lived in the first half of the 19th c. (roughly) and his diary covers the years 1828-1835. It is mostly about his daily activities, nothing fancy most of the time, but reading many of these enables you to get a good sense of what life in 19th c. Beijing was for the average Manchu.
I read volume 1 years ago but could not get my hands on volume 2. This has of course sent me in a Manchu reading frenzy.

14 x

User avatar
iguanamon
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2363
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:14 am
Location: Virgin Islands
Languages: Speaks: English (Native); Spanish (C2); Portuguese (C2); Haitian Creole (C1); Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol (C1); Lesser Antilles French Creole (B2)
Studies: Catalan (B2)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=797
x 14268

Re: Guyome's log

Postby iguanamon » Thu Nov 10, 2022 2:21 am

guyome wrote:I started reading the Shivchei HaBesht in both Yiddish and Ladino. The Shivchei HaBesht is a collection of legends about the founder of Hasidism, Yisroel Baal Shem Tov.
The text was originally published in Hebrew in 1814 and in Yiddish the following year. The Ladino translation was first published in 1852 in Belgrade and later reprinted in Saloniko in 1872. Yiddish editions are everywhere to be found so I just picked up one from roughly the same time as the Ladino translation. ...

Being able to read in both Yiddish and Ladino is certainly a feat that I envy. I enjoy reading the same work in different languages. I have read books of the Bible in both Haitian Creole; Lesser Antilles Creole French (Kwéyòl Sint Lisien) and Ladino; novels in Spanish and Portuguese translation while alternating chapters in each language... and also various combinations with Catalan. It's definitely a way to get a book read and exercise languages that may be not getting as much attention. Mersi muncho- the pdf's are very readable. I'll add them to my Ladino reading list! Vo los meldar!
6 x

guyome
Blue Belt
Posts: 604
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:41 pm
Languages: French (N)
x 2436

Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Sun Nov 13, 2022 10:30 am

Thanks for stopping by, iguanamon!

I never thought of reading the same book alternating chapters in different languages but I can see how it would help. Sometimes it is tedious reading the same chapter twice.
The Ladino editions of the Shivchei haBesht offer, for all intent and purposes, the same text except that the 1872 Saloniko edition updated/adapted the text in very minor details (kuando ke > kuando, aver > tener,...). Overall, it seems to me that these changes bring the text slightly closer to "standard" 20th c. Ladino.
5 x

guyome
Blue Belt
Posts: 604
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:41 pm
Languages: French (N)
x 2436

Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Mon Jan 09, 2023 9:38 am

Prompted by galaxyrocker's post about Old Irish and Latin, I thought now would be as good a time as any to have a look at Irish Latin texts. Some googling later and I embarked on reading the Vitae Sanctorum Hiberniae (vol. I, vol. II), a large compilation of lives of Irish saints.

The books were published in 1910 by Charles Plummer and rely on three older collections of Lives. The manuscripts can be dated from the 13/14th c. but some of the material is much older. The medieval compilers have sometimes tampered with both the contents and the style of the Lives they collected but even so, there is no uniformity of tone.

I'm going through the collection in the order Plummer edited them, i.e. alphabetically. I think all the five Lives I have read so far would provide good easy/intermediate reading material. The Latin is rather Medieval and some Lives are written in fancier style while others are more plain. Based on my reading so far, I highly recommend them (that is, if you're interested in that kind of texts). Many of the miracles attributed to the saints are the ones you'd expect (curing illnesses, taming beasts,...) but there are some more unusual ones. Overall, I like the general tone and atmosphere. It feels very different from the Syriac lives I read some time ago, in which it seemed people were constantly at each other's throats.

I'll try and post extracts here, first going back through the Lives I have read and then posting as I go through the others.
12 x

guyome
Blue Belt
Posts: 604
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:41 pm
Languages: French (N)
x 2436

Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:13 am

Latin
From the Vita Sancti Abbani (St. Abbán, ✝520?). Many of his miracles are linked to rivers and lakes, which to my untrained eyes may suggest a mythological background. But I know next to nothing about Irish mythology...

Here are two short miracles from the Life. Surprisingly enough, I couldn't find a translation (haven't looked too hard), so I will inflict upon you my usual blend of painfully-literal-with-the-occasional-dynamic-element translation.
From girl to boy through baptism

XXV. Quidam homo, senex decrepitus et diues ualde, de nobiliori genere regionis Hely, non habens filium, nec fratrem, neque nepotem, duxit in senectute vxorem ad querendum heredem. Et illa peperit sibi filiam, et ea ducta est ad sanctum Abbanum, ut baptizaretur ab eo ; et ille senex, pater suus, venit cum ea, et dixit ad virum Dei : 'O homo Dei, audi miseriam meam.' Et narrauit ipse sancto audienti omnia, que supra diximus. Sanctus ait illi: 'Filium habebis.' Ille autem risit, dicens : 'Mulier nichil pertinet ad me, nec ego ad eam : quia plenus senectute et doloribus sum. Ideoque, famule Domini, scito quod femina in mea cura non erit plus.' Sanctus ait: 'Mihi hoc placet ; set expecta paulisper, et potestatem Domini videbis.'
Tunc vir Dei baptizauit filiam ipsius ; set cum duceretur de lauacro baptismatis, fuit filius. Et ait sanctus patri eius : 'Ecce filius tuus.' Et ille gaudens multum, et omnes qui erant cum eo, dixit ad sanctum virum : 'Ipse, et semen suum post se seruiat tibi.' Vir sanctus respondit : 'Quamdiu ipse et semen suum mihi seruiat, regnabitur ab eo regnum istius regionis.' Et ita est. Ille quidem homo cum filio suo reuersus in domum suam, de tali prophetia in corde suo gaudebat.

25. A man, who was very old and exceedingly wealthy and from a noble family of Hely, had no son, nor brother, nor nephew. In his old age, he married a woman, seeking to have an heir. And she gave birth to a girl and she was led to saint Abbán to be baptized by him. And the old man, her father, came with her and said to the man of God: "O Man of God, hear my distress." And he told the saint everything we have said above. The saint said to him: "You will have a son." The man laughed, saying: "The woman is of no use to me, neither am I to her, because I am extremly old and in bad health. Thus, servant of God, know that I'm not going to care for a woman in the future." The saint said: "Fine by me, but wait for a short while and you will see the power of the Lord."
Then the man of God baptized his daughter, but when she was led away from the baptismal font, she was a son. And the saint said to the father: "Here is your son." And the man was overjoyed, as well as all who were with him, and he said to the holy man: "May he, and his offspring after him, serve you." The holy man answered: "As long as he and his offspring will serve me, the kingdom of this region will be his." And so it is. The man and his son, back to his home, rejoicing in his heart about this prophecy.
A respectful snowfall

xxxvi. Quodam quoque die vir sanctus in eodem loco* foris euangelium legebat, et erat liber apertus super lapidem ante eum ; et rediens die illo ad monasterium suum, oblitus est librum apertum super lapidem, et illa nocte nix maxima super totam regionem Hybernie fluit, set tamen gratia Dei donauit sancto viro, quod nulla gutta niuis super librum necque super lapidem necque in atrio, in quo ipsi erant, cecidit.
Mane autem facto, sanctus senior, recordatus librum, ualde doluit de eo, et misit nuncios, ut sibi portarent eum. Nuncii uero invenientes siccum librum, et lapidem atriumque intactos, cum magna velocitate ad virum Dei redierunt, ostendentes ei librum, et narrantes que viderant. Tunc sanctus Abbanus gauisus est, et omnes, qui erant cum eo, gratias Deo egerunt.

36. Another day, the holy man was reading a Gospel outside in the same place* and the book was open on a stone in front of him. And going back that day to his monastery, he forgot the book open on the stone. And that night heavy snow fell on the whole area of Ireland, but God's grace granted the holy man that no snowflake fell on the book or on the stone or on the yard in which they were.
On the morning however, the holy elder, remembering the book, was quite pained at the tought. And he sent errand runners to bring it back to him. The errand runners, finding the book dry, and both stone and yard untouched, came back at great speed to the man of God, showing him the book and telling him what they had seen. Saint Abbán then rejoiced and all who were with him thanked God.

*Diserth Cendubhain, some kind of ermitage, at some distance of his monastery, where Abbán would fast and pray.
6 x

guyome
Blue Belt
Posts: 604
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:41 pm
Languages: French (N)
x 2436

Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:33 am

Latin
One of the many water miracles performed by St. Abbán. It is a bit longer than the previous ones so I divided it in paragraphs and added my translation after each one of them for easier comparison.
xxx. Quodam die sanctus Abbanus cum turba multa discipulorum ad flumen Berbha* venit, et non inventis vehiculis, steterunt super ripam fluminis. Sanctus autem senior seorsum ad Deum orabat. Tunc videntibus omnibus, flumen diuisum est in duas partes, et siccum vadum apparuit. Pars superior altius et altius surgebat, et pars inferior quasi sine motu stetit. Hoc videns vir sanctus, iussit omnes ire ante se ; et omnibus euntibus siccis pedibus, sanctus senior posterius transiuit.

30. One day, saint Abbán came to the river Berbha* with a large crowd of disciples. Unable to find means of transportation, they stood on the bank of the river. But the holy elder kept praying to God apart from the group. Then everybody saw the river being divided into two parts and a crossing appeared. The upstream part [of the river] kept growing higher and higher, and the downstream part remained still. Seeing this, the holy man directed everyone to go in front of him and, everyone going with dry feet, the holy elder crossed last.

Erat autem in comitatu eorum quidam infantulus, qui videns calculos pulcerrimos in profundo, post tergum sancti stetit, colligens eos, et nemo vidit eum ibi manentem, quia sanctus iussit omnibus, ne post se aspicerent, set ire in viam suam. Ipse tamen sursum ad celum respiciebat ; et ut pes eius de uado perrexit, flumen cucurrit iter suum. In loco uero in quo infans fuit, quando flumen descendit, ibi mansit sub aqua, et nec inde potuit ire. Sanctus vero senior cum discipulis suis viam suam ambulabat. Cum autem puer quereretur ad comedendum, non est inventus. Omnes enim usque ad ipsam horam putabant cum in eorum comitatu fuisse ; set omnes dixerunt, quod non vidissent eum postquam in flumine secum descendit. Sanctus senior ait eis : 'Ne inquietetis vos de ipso; quia a Deo custoditur, et ego crastina die de flumine ante vos eum educam incolumem.'

There was however in their group a young boy, who, seeing very beautiful pebbles in the bed of the river, remained behind the saint, picking those up. And nobody saw that he stayed there because the saint ordered all of them not to look behind but to go their way. He himself kept looking up to the sky. And as his foot was out of the crossing, the river flowed its course. But when the river went down, the boy remained where he was under the water and could not go away. The holy elder was going his way together with his disciples. When they looked for the boy at meal time, he could not be found. Up to this moment, everyone thought he was with them but they all said that they had not seen him after he went down into the river with them. The holy elder said to them: "Don't worry about him, because he is watched over by God and tomorrow I will bring him out of the river unharmed in front of you."

Vir sanctus reuersus mane ad flumen, solus in aquam accessit, et inde extraxit puerum incolumem. Puer autem non solum viuus erat, sed vestimenta sua sicca fuerunt ; aqua enim non tetigit eum. Ipse uero puer omnibus narrabat, quomodo angelus Domini consolabatur eum, et quomodo ab eo predictum est sibi, quod per gratiam sancti Abbani defensus est, et quod ipse educeret eum de aqua, et quomodo aqua ad se in illo loco non intrauit ; et ipse hinc uel inde transire non potuit, donec apprehendit eum. Omnes hec audientes Deo gratias egerunt, et suum famulum sanctum Abbanum honorauerunt.

On the morning, the holy man was back to the river, went alone into the water and pulled out the boy unharmed. Not only was he alive, but his clothes were dry, for the water did not touch him. And the boy was telling everybody how an angel of the Lord kept conforting him and how he informed him that he was protected by the grace of saint Abbán and that he himself would bring him out of the water, and how the water did not come close to him in that place, and he could not go here nor there until he grabbed him. Hearing this, they all thanked God and honoured his servant saint Abbán.
* The Barrow?
6 x

guyome
Blue Belt
Posts: 604
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:41 pm
Languages: French (N)
x 2436

Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:56 pm

Latin
I am still reading the Lives of Irish Saints. Right now, I am in the middle of Saint Brendan's sea trip, which is not exactly fascinating, despite having been a best seller during the Middle Ages. I can't wait to be finished with it.

Another water miracle by Saint Abbán, in which he is seen setting up a cosy place for murderous beasts.
xvi. Iterum ipsi homines ad sanctum Abbanum de bestiis habitantibus in stagno quod[am] ante ciuitatem eandem, que erant ualde venenose (quia in tempore eorum, qui tunc vixerunt, centum homines occiderunt ; numerus vero peccorum non est presto), aliam querimoniam fecerunt, dicentes : 'Adhuc magnifica nomen Christi ante nos cui per te credimus, liberando nos ab istis bestiis, que manent in stagno illo, et cum ad horam currunt in terram, et homines et peccora occidunt.'
Volens uero Dei famulus nomen Christi magnis rebus illis ostendere, abiit cum ipsis ad stagnum, et solus ante omnes in aquam intrauit, et statim aspere bestie cum horridis vvltibus festinantes venerunt ad eum ; et videntes vvltum eius angelicum, omnes impetum deposuerunt, et mites steterunt ad pedes sancti. Ipse siquidem iussit eas secum ire in profundo laci, et ibi constituit locum eis, ligans eas, ut in eo habitarent usque ad finem mundi. Et de piscibus laci omni die annonam eis constituit ; et ab illa hora usque in hodiernum diem inde non apparuerunt, et nemini nocuerunt. Set ex illo loco, in quo sunt ligate bestie, motus tocius stagni adhuc in septimo anno in signum virtutis videtur.

16. Once more, these people complained to saint Abbán about beasts that were living in a certain lake, in front of the same city, and were highly poisonous (in the lifetime of these people, the beasts had killed a hundred men; the number of heads of cattle is not known). They said: "Exalt before us the name of Christ, in whom we believe through you, by freeing us of those beasts, that live in that lake. When they run through the land, they kill men and cattle."
The servant of God wanted to show them the name of Christ by means of great deeds and he went with them to the lake. In front of them all, he went into the water alone and immediately the beasts came to him forcefully, rapidly and with frightful faces. And upon seeing his angelic face, they stopped their attack and stood at his feet gently. He ordered them to go with him in the deep of the lake, and he arranged a place for them there, binding them, so that they would live there until the end of the world. And he established for them a daily ration of fish from the lake; and from that moment until today, they have not emerged from there and they have harmed no one. But from that place, in which the beasts are tied, every seven years the whole lake can be seen moving, as a sign of [his/their?] strength.
2 x

galaxyrocker
Brown Belt
Posts: 1125
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:44 am
Languages: English (N), Irish (Teastas Eorpach na Gaeilge B2), French, dabbling elsewhere sometimes
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=757
x 3364

Re: Guyome's log

Postby galaxyrocker » Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:07 pm

guyome wrote: Right now, I am in the middle of Saint Brendan's sea trip, which is not exactly fascinating, despite having been a best seller during the Middle Ages.


What don't you like about it? I've only read excerpts, and in translation, but I remember finding the parts we did read to be quite interesting. Granted, it was for a university course exploring how people conceptualised 'place' and I had an amazing teacher so that probably helped, but I remember finding our readings of it neat. Or maybe I'm just misremembering something that happened 10 years ago now, another big possibility.
1 x

guyome
Blue Belt
Posts: 604
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:41 pm
Languages: French (N)
x 2436

Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:17 pm

galaxyrocker wrote:What don't you like about it?
I can't say, really. Maybe I just wasn't in the mood. I just read another 10 pages and it seemed better. But compared to the previous lives I 'm not enjoying it a lot. Even the whale story was something of a let down (but the singing birds were kind of cool, so there's that).

I think it's partly due to the very repetitive nature of the story (go to island, see wonders, go back to ship, sail to another island, etc.). There is also the fact the the characters all seems to be empty shells. They don't say much, they don't do much. Apart from Brendan, who sounds a bit like a know-it-all. But even he is a lot less "alive" than other saints in previous lives.

On a deeper level, and if I do some soul searching, I think part of the problem is also that I am not moved or really interested in this kind of miracles. I have probably read more than my fair share of Medieval miracle stories and, although I don't approach them as a believer, I have enjoyed a lot of these because of the human element. What do these stories tell me about how people interacted then? what was everyday life like? what is the moral of the story? etc.
Other miracle stories include a heavy dose of supernatural experiences and events and not much else, and that's the ones I generally like less. It's as if they were aiming at dazzling the reader but, to me, they appear to have been written solely/mostly for bragging rights. For instance, I remember reading the beginning of St. Francis of Assisi's Fioretti. The writer spends the first chapter telling us about how Francis had 12 disciples (like Jesus!), and how another had a vision of his lips being touched by burning coal (like Isaiah!), and how one of them talked with God on a regular basis, etc. Great for them I guess but all these ring rather hollow to me. I would even go as far as to say that they sound very self-centered: "me, my miracle, my supernatural experience". Even if I don't believe in them, nor does my 21st-c.-brain approve of everything they do, I very much prefer seeing a saint saving lives by taming beasts, and souls by offering his conduct as an example (no matter how crude or naive some of these stories are).

So, yea, I guess Brendan's cruise is a lot closer to the second category and that is, in part at least, why I find it irksome: he sails and sails, sees wonderful things, but to what end, other than his personal glorification? That being said, this is certainly a very rich work and I'm sure it repays a close analysis of its many stories.
3 x

guyome
Blue Belt
Posts: 604
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:41 pm
Languages: French (N)
x 2436

Re: Guyome's log

Postby guyome » Mon Jan 16, 2023 9:35 pm

Latin
From the Life of Saint Áed (✝589). Engage in frivolous activities on the Lord's day at your own peril! It reminded me of how Machair, the Scottish Gaelic soap opera, taught me that doing your laundry on Sunday was more than frowned upon in the Outer Hebrides.
xxx. Volentes quedam mulieres capita sua lauare in dominica nocte*, dixit eis sanctus Edus: 'Quid vvltis facere?' Dicunt ei : 'Nostra lauare capita volumus.' Quibus sanctus ait: 'Nolite facere, quia dominica nox est.' Ille iam non obedientes sancto episcopo, lauarunt capita sua. Mane autem surgentes, tota coma de capitibus earum cecidit**. Hoc videntes fleuerunt, et venerunt tristes ad sanctum Edum, et penitentiam egerunt coram eo. Benedixit eas sanctus pontifex, dicens : 'Vestram portate ignomeniam hodie ; et crastino die lauantes, nouis et mirabilibus comis tecta erunt capita vestra.' Et sic factum est.

30. Some women wanted to wash their heads on Sunday night*. Saint Áed told them: "What do you want to do?" They told him: "We want to wash our heads". The saint said to them: "Don't do it, because it is Sunday night." These women did not obey the holy bishop, they washed their heads. When they got up in the morning, every hair fell** from their heads. Seeing this, they cried and came grieving to saint Áed, and they did penance before him. The holy bishop blessed them saying: "Bear your disgrace today: and tomorrow, when you're washing, your heads will be covered with new and wonderful hair". And so it happened.
*I don't know if this is the portion of the night leading to Sunday or the one leading to Monday.
**Cecidit/"fell" may stand for ceciderat/"had fallen". I don't think the distinction between perfect and pluperfect is strictly adhered to in many of these texts.
7 x


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Nogon, squirrel and 3 guests